Inequality and the USA: A nation in denial?

[reasonevangelist]

How is healthcare for profit more greedy than hamburgers for profit?

Hamburgers aren't necessary. But you could also argue that hamburgers create a need for healthcare...

 

[ttystikk]

Wordz, why do you hate America? Where do you get off trying to tell people that they should work and save?


What an asshole!

Number one, that isn't what he said. He said scam to get ahead.

Second, if working for a living got you ahead in this country anymore, a lot more people would be.

Don't you guys get it? The rich used the tax code to STEAL OUR PROSPERITY.

They stole it from you too, if you aren't making at least a quarter mil yearly.

 

[earnest_voice]

obama only reauthorized a very few sections of the patriot act, which is the exact opposite of "putting it on steroids".

“This administration also puts forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we provide. I will provide our intelligence and law enforcement agencies with the tools they need to track and take out the terrorists without undermining our Constitution and our freedom. That means no more illegal wiretapping of American citizens. No more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. No more tracking citizens who do nothing more than protest a misguided war. That is not who we are. And it is not what is necessary to defeat the terrorists. The FISA court works. The separation of powers works. Our Constitution works. We will again set an example for the world that the law is not subject to the whims of stubborn rulers, and that justice is not arbitrary”

http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/flashback-obama-railed-against-monitoring-citizens-who-did-n#12vb5qi

 

[ttystikk]

Anyone wish to take a deeper look at how the corporate world fucks you over with stock buyback schemes?
There's no point talking about inequality in the ethereal sense. Let's get specific...

View attachment 3244755
View attachment 3244757
View attachment 3244758

Brilliant stuff, thanks! Here's a bit in return;


This is where allllllll that money went, and why the economy stopped working for the rest of us who do the work.

 

[UncleBuck]

“This administration also puts forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we provide. I will provide our intelligence and law enforcement agencies with the tools they need to track and take out the terrorists without undermining our Constitution and our freedom. That means no more illegal wiretapping of American citizens. No more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. No more tracking citizens who do nothing more than protest a misguided war. That is not who we are. And it is not what is necessary to defeat the terrorists. The FISA court works. The separation of powers works. Our Constitution works. We will again set an example for the world that the law is not subject to the whims of stubborn rulers, and that justice is not arbitrary”

http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/flashback-obama-railed-against-monitoring-citizens-who-did-n#12vb5qi

still doesn't help ginwilly's claim.

 

[ttystikk]

Well that certainly is a good point.

I would counter that by saying that where you have rich and poor, the west and other capitalist nations, there are poor. There are also rich people who used to be poor. People who changed their fate.

In countries where the government steps in to make equal citizens, there has yet to be one that makes everyone rich, and plenty where they make everyone poor.

In North Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, Red China, others and former Soviet Union (probably the best, but they still had to build walls to keep people in) the people were impoverished and there was virtually no upward mobility. The state chose who the elite were, and they were the only ones who lived well.

Some of those countries adopted more capitalistic policies and they created wealth for people. Yes, some people are still poor.

So fuck you.

I love the constant comparisons to dictatorships. How about Finland? Sweden? Denmark? Quality of life, egalitarianism, social mobility, all are dramatically higher than the US- and they do it with tiny populations by comparison, often in marginal country. Jesus, even the UK has more social mobility and they're the poster child for stodgy social calcification!

 

[ttystikk]

100 years ago the Vanderbilt family were the richest people in America.

In the 1870's Cornelius Vanderbilt plowed and planted a virgin field so he could borrow $100 from his mother, who was lower middle class at best. Before he died he was worth over one hundred million dollars.

I'll grant you that this is an extreme example. But I know or know of a great many people who have achieved wealth.

What is a rich person. Undoubtedly different people answer differently.

I think if you have enough money to meet your needs and do a lot of the things you want to do, it would be reasonable to be called rich.

That could be someone with a 75k per year income, over time. Hell it could be 50k with wisdom and time.

When we talk about "rich" people there is an assumption that it's ultra rich only in the discussion.

It is all relative. People who socialized with the Vanderbilt family would be called poor with a net worth of (only) $1 million in 1900 money. It was called "respectable poverty. "

Likewise everyone in the trailer park thinks the guy with the nice double wide and a Ford truck is rich.

No, this is rich in America today;


Now, pay attention, because those who made the most money did it by underpaying their taxes. I have no problem with high earners. They can pay like the rest of us, no special breaks at the top. That leads straight to serfdom and plantation owner style economics and that's a terrible way to run a post industrial technologically advanced country.

 

[ttystikk]

if your dream involves changing society as a whole, good fucking luck.

I'll take that challenge, because I don't think what's going on is right or fair and I believe I have a lot of company. As citizens, it's our right and even our duty to defend our freedoms from anyone who would abridge them, from within or without.

That's the definition of citizen. It's a special kind of cowardice to bitch about how things are and then say it's out of your control to do something.

 

[pinkjackyle]

Brilliant stuff, thanks! Here's a bit in return;
View attachment 3245154

This is where allllllll that money went, and why the economy stopped working for the rest of us who do the work.

tom dashell's apointment goes down in flames because he didnt pay any taxes for a few years , millionare .
mitt romney paid 14% in taxes multi millionare .
general electric didnt pay any taxes in 2010 i think and they own nbc which didnt run the story .
i paid nearly 40% , single male with no dependants ,ive got a common law wife i suppose, weve been together 10- 12 yrs , no tax break for that . i aint no millionare im a pipefitter/plumber .

anybody seeing this trend ? flat rate tax system i want sum .

 

[ttystikk]

tom dashell's apointment goes down in flames because he didnt pay any taxes for a few years , millionare .
mitt romney paid 14% in taxes multi millionare .
general electric didnt pay any taxes in 2010 i think and they own nbc which didnt run the story .
i paid nearly 40% , single male with no dependants ,ive got a common law wife i suppose, weve been together 10- 12 yrs , no tax break for that . i aint no millionare im a pipefitter/plumber .

anybody seeing this trend ? flat rate tax system i want sum .

Flat rate would still screw the working class, because the rich have all much more discretionary income. A progressive tax system with caps on deductions and loopholes is the best approach, demonstrated over and over by any number of Nobel Prize winning economists. The ones you don't see on television news.

 

[pinkjackyle]

Flat rate would still screw the working class, because the rich have all much more discretionary income. A progressive tax system with caps on deductions and loopholes is the best approach, demonstrated over and over by any number of Nobel Prize winning economists. The ones you don't see on television news.

i dont understand how you get screwed on a flat rate ? its a % on total income ,no write offs no loopholes no caps you pay 30% or go to jail no increased tax bracket for overtime , if rich uncle leaves you 1mill$ tou pay 300000$ in taxes if the ceo of xxxx makes 200mill he/she pays 60mil in taxes .

or go to consumption tax 30% sales tax except food.

 

[earnest_voice]

still doesn't help ginwilly's claim.

Obama Reathorised the patriot act, used the Authorization to Use MIlitary Force resolution as justification for droning people overseas and signed into law the National Defense Authorization Act. Tell me now how Obama hasn't put the patriot act on steroids by adding his own flavors...

 

[UncleBuck]

Obama Reathorised the patriot act, used the Authorization to Use MIlitary Force resolution as justification for droning people overseas and signed into law the National Defense Authorization Act. Tell me now how Obama hasn't put the patriot act on steroids by adding his own flavors...

because most of the patriot act is gone now. that's how.

 

[ttystikk]

i dont understand how you get screwed on a flat rate ? its a % on total income ,no write offs no loopholes no caps you pay 30% or go to jail no increased tax bracket for overtime , if rich uncle leaves you 1mill$ tou pay 300000$ in taxes if the ceo of xxxx makes 200mill he/she pays 60mil in taxes .

or go to consumption tax 30% sales tax except food.

Like I said before, the rich have discretionary income. The poor get screwed in a flat tax situation. Besides, what's wrong with, for example, making someone pay 75% tax on all income earned beyond the first million? Ya think they can't make ends meet on that, somehow? Why do they deserve to keep it all? Not one millionaire did it alone! They ALL did it with the assistance of their countrymen, who provided a stable secure marketplace and willing customers.

What greedy asshole would decide he is exempt from paying his fair share?

Turns out- most of them. THAT'S why it needs to be a progressive tax, to keep power from concentrating in too few hands... JUST LIKE IT IS NOW.

 

[ttystikk]

If you'd like a good explanation for why American politics looks like it does, Google 'Princeton university professors study income inequality'.

There you'll discover that the oligarchs get their way as often as you'd expect them to, considering they own and operate our democracy as if it's their own private cash machine; the middle class pays and they reap the rewards.

This overhang can't last, and people will feel pretty silly about some of the things they stood for, just like with the dot com crash.

 

[ttystikk]

because most of the patriot act is gone now. that's how.

But not all of it. Meanwhile, RICO is still going strong and it's every bit as abusive to our citizenship rights.

Government won't simply give back our freedoms, they'll need to be forced- by lawful public demand, as violence will only provide an excuse for martial law and the forfeiture of whatever freedoms we might have left.

 

[earnest_voice]

because most of the patriot act is gone now. that's how.

Notice I mentioned the NDAA and the authorization to Use MIlitary Force resolution. They go hand in hand with the Patriot act.

Try reading next time.

 

[Nutes and Nugs]

Notice I mentioned the NDAA and the authorization to Use MIlitary Force resolution. They go hand in hand with the Patriot act.

Try reading next time.

I found it interesting that police forces can now get back up generators, lights, food, armored vehicles or whatever the local NG armory has to offer.
After the chaos in Missouri the news reported this as a good measure.

I see it as using military force against the citizens in the near future.

 

[earnest_voice]

I found it interesting that police forces can now get back up generators, lights, food, armored vehicles or whatever the local NG armory has to offer.
After the chaos in Missouri the news reported this as a good measure.

I see it as using military force against the citizens in the near future.

There was a paper I was reading on this subject a while back;

http://ojs.library.okstate.edu/osu/index.php/FICS/article/view/1530/1361

IMAGES OF POWER: AN ANALYSIS OF THE MILITARIZATION OF POLICE UNIFORMS AND MESSAGES OF SERVICE
John Paul, Michael L. Birzer

Abstract

This paper examines the symbolic order of the American policing system. By symbolic order we refer to the various codes of communication between police and community members that reinforce "boundaries" in social relations. In the paper we argue that the militaristic symbolic vessels "worn" by the police reflect the institution's perceptions of worth and value regarding the public. Furthermore, we contend that these symbolic forms identify and perpetuate power inequalities and serve as mechanisms of social control. We conclude the paper with specific recommendations on how police may openly foster and communicate messages of service to community members.

Looking at the images out of Ferguson it's easy to see the militarization of domestic law enforcement.

FBI statistical data also supports your contention of the potential to use military force against citizens as the use of rifles by LEOs in justified homicides has been rising steadily since the '90s

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2003/table2-15_just99-03.xls/view

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_14_justifiable_homicide_by_weapon_law_enforcement_2008-2012.xls

 

[reasonevangelist]

But not all of it. Meanwhile, RICO is still going strong and it's every bit as abusive to our citizenship rights.

Government won't simply give back our freedoms, they'll need to be forced- by lawful public demand, as violence will only provide an excuse for martial law and the forfeiture of whatever freedoms we might have left.

But those are still their rules. Technically, we are as free as we say we are, regardless of any claims made by an illegitimate authority figure.