giving defoliation during flower a try

[AlphaPhase]

I don't think the reason to use defoliation is to get more yield, a plant can only yield as much as it's genetic make up I would assume. Anyway, the plant that I defoliated was growing slowly but now it seems back on track. It's actually starting to flower now (10 days after the others have started flowering and all we're put in 12/12 the same day). But what I'm noticing is the pruned plant even though it flowered later, it is flowering the fastest. Also, the stretch was pretty much eliminated.

A good reason, IMO, for defoliation or heavy pruning, would be air flow for the most part. Everyone knows that moisture on leaves in flowering is not a good thing. I'm happy to say I've eliminated all water formation on the pruned plant and will not need to prune any more. The structure is much better than it was un pruned and light/air can pass through easily without making the plant "sweat" heavily. So all in all I am happy with the results. It's 100% going to be a strain dependent practice, for heavy foliage plants only. I would not do it unless it's absolutely necessary. This is the only plant in a very long time that I had to take extreme measures. Here's some pics of what they look like now (don't mind the leaves, a lot of them are funny looking because they get smushed against the tent door) and also it was a mutant seedling so I'm surprised it's even made it this far.) I dunno, hope this info helps. Don't do it for yield, do it for reasons to avoid health problems to the plant, ie. mold, mildew, sweating, plant crowding itself ect.)

 

[AlphaPhase]

Too wierd, I know this is just high times, so take it with a grain of salt. But strange the article gets posted on Facebook today

http://hightimes.com/read/cultivation-clinic-pruning-tips-and-tricks

 

[AlphaPhase]

For those that don't want to read it, it basically says what I said. Taking big Green leaves off is beneficial as the leaf at 50% of the leafs life span, it has reached its photosynthesis peak and then begins to decline and is detrimental to tthe plant and worthless. So taking it off is actually good.

 

[GrowinDad]

Many, or some, or me, of us do not have a brain for botany and realize that. I do my best to follow but science was never my thing. With that said, I come here not looking for easy answers but to better understand.

While all of the mudslinging is obnoxious, I think it helps peeps like me to decide who to put some faith into. In life when we often face two polarized sides and have to make a call for ourselves.

My guess is that there is probably is some uber complex way to maximize via some defoliation but the odds of doing more harm than good are great. So I ain't fucking with it myself! But just wanted to chime in that all the bickering isn't entirely pointless. Though all the memes or whatever you call them are too much for this peacelover.

 

[Uncle Ben]

Reminiscing about your childhood? Something else we did as kids, I liked it as well.

No, just wondering why you didn't answer my question about your outdoor grown plants....the popcorn bud thingie. I asked twice I might add.

 

[Sativied]

Too wierd, I know this is just high times, so take it with a grain of salt.

More like a bucket of salt. Just some fluff article meant to fill the magazine. Skimmed through it and seems like you made that 50% up yourself or got that from another source. 50% of its life span, almost all my leaves stay healthy from top to bottom for 12 weeks or so. Obviously that's not going to work. I posted links to resources about source-sink relationship on several forums, defoliators didn't care, but when one showed up with that story about them become sinks again later in life that info is somehow accepted by defoliators. The typical bias (not accusing you of such) of cherry picking sources.

I don't think the reason to use defoliation is to get more yield, a plant can only yield as much as it's genetic make up I would assume.

The desire to get more yield, or at least not less than they think is possible, is clearly what motivates most defoliators to remove leaves.

Don't do it for yield, do it for reasons to avoid health problems to the plant, ie. mold, mildew, sweating, plant crowding itself ect.)

Those more or less valid reasons to remove some leaves are all situations that should be avoided regardless. Indoor growing is all about creating an optimal environment for to the plant, which includes proper airflow and proper plant spacing. Preventing health problems is still, mold, pm, etc, is still ultimately done to prevent less yield. Too crowded is obviously too usually a result of wanting more or at least max yield. The point is, removing leaves to prevent high humidity is like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. This is exactly why I said in a previous post those who feel like removing leaves should first learn how to grow efficiently (including a proper setup) before even considering, or worse advice others, to remove leaves.

I've put it differently in a few older defoliation discussions, sometimes removing a few leaves can unfuck a fucked up situation. Being able to control the environment to the desired extend just isn't always doable. Depending on the weather in my already humid climate I remove leaves during the last 7-10 days solely to reduce humidity levels and prevent rot.

In a situation where it is too crowded, remove the smaller branches (ideally should have done that during veg/trans to prevent that) not the large leaves from the large branches. Plant spacing is less important than bud site spacing, cola spacing. Train your plants properly for that, and you won't have to remove any leaves.

With that said, I come here not looking for easy answers but to better understand. [...] I think it helps peeps like me to decide who to put some faith into. In life when we often face two polarized sides and have to make a call for ourselves.

You put that way better than I did with my good vs evil story.

And I get that not everyone is interested in the science, I'm not suggesting people take a botany class to grow cannabis. What would be nice though, is if everyone could be intellectually honest. Don't need to have an interest in science or be a nerd to do so.

For example, it would be nice if we could agree that shaving your pubes only makes it look bigger, doesn't actually make it bigger. Simple logic like that would make it a little easier, fun, and more productive to discuss topics.

 

[waterdawg]

No, just wondering why you didn't answer my question about your outdoor grown plants....the popcorn bud thingie. I asked twice I might add.

I thought I did, sorry UB. I thought I said it was a while back, like thirty years, the old memory isnt what it used to be. Doesn't really stick out in my mind re popcorn bud. The blueberry had very little popcorn and remember that strain well, it was more recent. Not sure what your asking re popcorn, did I have more when?

 

[waterdawg]

Oh outdoor versus indoor now I get it!!! My indoor has more, but I'm a newb to indoor hydro so could very well be me. Gotta ask hows is this relevant to defoliation when I dont do it? Are you just saying outdoor is better? If yes, i agree given all the pluses like cost, plant size, etc. but indoors is easier for me now lol. Cant grow it in my yard as much as that would be perfect. Its a long walk into the swamp lol

 

[waterdawg]

I agree with Sativied that the primary goal of the novice grower is to get big plants and misguided or not they will try many different things to achieve that goal. Nutes and additives being the other controversial subject. I have 12 plants packed into a very small space due to thinking I had screwed up a tray and starting another, only to have them recover and thrive. I do get transpiration on the leaves but by gently (well I try lol) relocating the plants main stems it does not seem to be posing a problem. And also agree that if you have no clue re plants science, dont pretend to (i for one have no clue lol). That should not hinder people in giving their own experiences, and they should not be called stupid, ignorant, or belittled for doing so, as so often happens from a select few.

 

[Uncle Ben]

Many folks have this idea that the reason for popcorn buds is because light doesn't reach the lower budsites (which it does FWIW). I come back that the popcorn bud thingie is not due to light levels and advise them to grow outdoors where popcorn buds will also be found at the lower levels in spite of the plant receiving full sun all day. The fact that popcorn buds will be an issue on outdoor grown buds too kicks their theory in the uh...."dirt".

 

[AlphaPhase]

Skimmed through it and seems like you made that 50% up yourself or got that from another source. 50% of its life span, almost all my leaves stay healthy from top to bottom for 12 weeks or so.

Comeeeeee onnnn, you know what they say about assuming

"it’s important to realize that halfway through a leaf’s life, it has reached its photosynthetic peak." - From the article. I just said 50% but we all know half is also 50%

Also in the book "Photosynthetica" as well as others. You mentioned defoliaters are always one sided, like when a source becomes a sink.. What about you, have you read any horticulture books about defoliation and the benefits, or just the ones why defoliating is bad? I've been reading both, very good points on both sides of the argument.

The desire to get more yield, or at least not less than they think is possible, is clearly what motivates most defoliators to remove leaves.

Yeah, it would be pointless to do it for lower yield, so I would hope the people doing it are getting the same yield at least. Or why do it? Do you think the people successfully defoliating are doing it on purpose to get less yield so they can come to forums and say it works? I don't know, that's not something a sane person would do.

Those more or less valid reasons to remove some leaves are all situations that should be avoided regardless. Indoor growing is all about creating an optimal environment for to the plant, which includes proper airflow and proper plant spacing. Preventing health problems is still, mold, pm, etc, is still ultimately done to prevent less yield. Too crowded is obviously too usually a result of wanting more or at least max yield. The point is, removing leaves to prevent high humidity is like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. This is exactly why I said in a previous post those who feel like removing leaves should first learn how to grow efficiently (including a proper setup) before even considering, or worse advice others, to remove leaves.

Yeah, you're right about that. Environment is key. I keep my environment in the top 15% of rooms i'd say except I don't run co2. I keep the room sanitary, plenty of air flow, ventilation, proper plant spacing, ac, dehumidifer, nute levels and ph in check, all the other basics.. etc.. Though my flower room is small, it's still set up properly. My humidity is in check and at the proper levels and only one plant was "sweating" profusely from it's dense foliage. It's also the smallest plant in the room. I have 11 plants in a 5x5 tent that were vegged to 9" and flowered. They are now about 33" and I am very pleased with the spacing and training in the flower area. Getting max yield while keeping max quality is what EVERYONE that grows should be aiming for. That's what sets aside noobs from master growers. There are many master growers that practice some form of heavy pruning, that's what got me curious.

In a situation where it is too crowded, remove the smaller branches (ideally should have done that during veg/trans to prevent that) not the large leaves from the large branches. Plant spacing is less important than bud site spacing, cola spacing. Train your plants properly for that, and you won't have to remove any leaves.

I've grown my fair share of plants, probably more than 90% of the people on these forums. I do practice lollipoping occasionally, and did lolipop the plant i pruned as well. That's what confuses me, lollipoping is defoliation, sort of, except more stressful I would think.. ie.. removing more than just leaves? Either way, there's a time and place for both IMO, and it's up to the farmer to utilize the tools at hand efficiently and effectively.

What really stumps me is the whole "where's the science" about things. You all must realize "science" starts with thoughts, questions, hypothesis, OBSERVATION AND EXPERIMENT. Now the science that you believe true now, was not believed true in the past. The naysayers said the world was round, everyone else thought they were crazy. Take a minute to think about that and let that "sink" in. Pun intended

 

[Uncle Ben]

What about you, have you read any horticulture books about defoliation and the benefits, or just the ones why defoliating is bad? I've been reading both, very good points on both sides of the argument.

Exactly what books are you referring to?

Do you think the people successfully defoliating are doing it on purpose to get less yield so they can come to forums and say it works?

Who are you calling "successful"? If it's not a bonafide empirical study (replicated at least 3 times having a control group) conducted by a non-partisan organization like Cornell U. or TX A&M.....it's not credible....it's pure junk science.

There are many master growers that practice some form of heavy pruning, that's what got me curious.

Like who? A master grower understands that it's leaves that drive flower production. Why in the hell would anyone who understands what makes a plant tick, botany, be stupid enough to remove the very unit that drives flower production? Yeah, "that would be insane".

And when you did your lollipopping, did you not realize you removed the ability of the plant to utilize R and FR light? That's the spectrum that does indeed penetrate the canopy you just butchered.

What really stumps me is the whole "where's the science" about things. You all must realize "science" starts with thoughts, questions, hypothesis, OBSERVATION AND EXPERIMENT.

Science begins and ends with standards established by the scientific community. Correct me if I'm wrong but the only scienctific research I've seen on cannabis was by the U. of Mississippi as reported by Mel Frank.

Now the science that you believe true now, was not believed true in the past. The naysayers said the world was round, everyone else thought they were crazy. Take a minute to think about that and let that "sink" in. Pun intended

Gawd, where have I heard that before. True science hasn't changed just as botany hasn't changed. There's lots of junk and bro science these days. Just because someone says it and someone repeats it doesn't make it so.

UB

 

[Sativied]

Comeeeeee onnnn, you know what they say about assuming

"it’s important to realize that halfway through a leaf’s life, it has reached its photosynthetic peak." - From the article. I just said 50% but we all know half is also 50%

See my comment about that 50% in my previous post.

What about you, have you read any horticulture books about defoliation and the benefits, or just the ones why defoliating is bad?

Barking up the wrong tree... and just silly to accuse me of confirmation bias after I pointed out how typically it is for defoliators and using that fitting analogy.

Yeah, it would be pointless to do it for lower yield, so I would hope the people doing it are getting the same yield at least. Or why do it? Do you think the people successfully defoliating are doing it on purpose to get less yield so they can come to forums and say it works? I don't know, that's not something a sane person would do.

Again, I don't see the point of such childishness. I obviously implied no such thing.

What was I thinking... a normal discussion about defoliation

 

[AlphaPhase]

no worries man, I wasn't trying to jab at cha or anything, I was just asking if you've read both books is all. I am just starting to read the threads about defoliation, prior I was reading books, but I wanted to see what mj growers had to say about the subject, and BOTH sides are one-sided, not just the defoliators, at least that's how it seems to me. I am on no side btw, I'm in the middle of it all trying to get to the bottom of the subject and learn I guess it's hard to analyze the words from a typed convo, but i never mean any disrespect @Sativied

 

[AlphaPhase]

Lollipoping ftw ub.

 

[AlphaPhase]

UB - If you dig a little you will find the books and the growers that lollipop and defoliate, well they don't completely defoliate, but they take a fair share of the leaves.. It's common practice these days. Also, I will upload a video of my small personal garden so you can see my little tiny set up that I usually don't do any plucking in. It depends on the plant when I take a leaf. That way you can see how I usually grow and you can stop hating on me and my ways Give me a minute.

 

[waterdawg]

Many folks have this idea that the reason for popcorn buds is because light doesn't reach the lower budsites (which it does FWIW). I come back that the popcorn bud thingie is not due to light levels and advise them to grow outdoors where popcorn buds will also be found at the lower levels in spite of the plant receiving full sun all day. The fact that popcorn buds will be an issue on outdoor grown buds too kicks their theory in the uh...."dirt".

I guess the only way would be for someone to grow identical plants in and out to see the the results. Thats really what this thread is about, people trying things on there own. think the op was just wanting to see what would happen for himself. Surely that is acceptable. I mean, to try things for yourself. There must have been a time when you did it as well. 116 pages later and everyone is still trying to prove its good or bad, just amazes me lol. I tend to let my girls do their thing and they like it that way for the most part. As for lollypopping, some of my first branches have produced buds as big as the primary stem so I am very reluctant to remove anything.

 

[AlphaPhase]

Here's my video. Now you can see I don't mess with my plants for the most part.

 

[RM3]

I did this experiment years ago on this forum lol. 3 clones from same plant, and the one with leaves had the highest yield, yes there are pics lol feel free to take a look

https://www.rollitup.org/t/balls-to-the-wall-grow-riddleme-gets-serious.347914/page-84#post-4979966

 

[waterdawg]

I did this experiment years ago on this forum lol. 3 clones from same plant, and the one with leaves had the highest yield, yes there are pics lol feel free to take a look

https://www.rollitup.org/t/balls-to-the-wall-grow-riddleme-gets-serious.347914/page-84#post-4979966

Still not going to convince people that it is detrimental to yield. There must be some out there that have had good results for whatever reason. At least it convinced you. Got to ask, did you do it to disprove the theory or we're you on the fence re benefits?