Patent #: US005227537
- Thread starter oilmkr420
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oilmkr420
Active Member
It is only slightly non-polar. Very low vapor pressure and extremely high supercritical temperature doesn't make it on the thorough scale. It will dissolve some cannabinoids, terps? But its easily obtained, hard to go wrong, and somewhat inexpensive. Co2 alone loses selectivity therefore big yields are possible. Tuned up co2 along w low temp and high pressure does the most rightous job. If potency is utmost importance, butane extracts won't win a cannabis cup even a nug run. At least if I entered it wouldn't win. It has purpose as flavanoids are very important part of the package.
oilmkr420
Active Member
I made note of it as methylpentane is a much more thorough solvent. Terpinoids are in the extract, which will undergo purification, to yield a colorless solid crystalline. A pinkish hue is also acceptable. I'm not talking out the freezer crystalline. Room temp won't melt on a hot summer day. The previous art can be seen at
Reefermadnessteachingmuseum.org
1942 Bulletin of New York Academy Cannabinol
It also documents the first human study regarding cannabis extracts.
Reefermadnessteachingmuseum.org
1942 Bulletin of New York Academy Cannabinol
It also documents the first human study regarding cannabis extracts.
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Grow Goddess
Well-Known Member
@oilmkr420 I don't think you understand where I am coming from in regards to the extractor I showed.
I am preparing myself to get a masters certification in aromatherapy. Aromatherapy is about extracting terpenes and making topical solutions. There are over 40 different carrier oils that can be used.
Anyway, the extractor I showed does not extract THC, it is not meant for that. It is only meant to extract pure terpenes. Steam distilling gets you all of the essential terpenes. Unless every study I looked into is wrong....
One of the reasons to do a terpene extract with cannabis is to be able to use the terpenes as an essential oil just like the other 100% pure essential oils from other plants and such. Like sandalwood, frankincense, clove bud, lavender, just to name a few. These essential plant oils or terpenes have great medicinal properties. It would be awesome to be able to experiment with pure cannabis terpenes to test them alone, and to be able to add them into other cannaibs products.
I am preparing myself to get a masters certification in aromatherapy. Aromatherapy is about extracting terpenes and making topical solutions. There are over 40 different carrier oils that can be used.
Anyway, the extractor I showed does not extract THC, it is not meant for that. It is only meant to extract pure terpenes. Steam distilling gets you all of the essential terpenes. Unless every study I looked into is wrong....
One of the reasons to do a terpene extract with cannabis is to be able to use the terpenes as an essential oil just like the other 100% pure essential oils from other plants and such. Like sandalwood, frankincense, clove bud, lavender, just to name a few. These essential plant oils or terpenes have great medicinal properties. It would be awesome to be able to experiment with pure cannabis terpenes to test them alone, and to be able to add them into other cannaibs products.
Grow Goddess
Well-Known Member
I guess you don't understand either.
Steam distilling at the proper temperature will only release the terpenes. How could I possibly be wrong? If I were wrong there would be a lot of companies fraudulently advertising their products, right here in America. Some of those companies are very reputable. When they say 100% pure, I believe it, especially when there are schools authorized by the NAHA.
I don't have an answer to how you would keep each terpene separate, if that is even possible.
All plant terpenes are unique. The combination of the terpenes arranged in each plant are completely unique from each other. Some can deliver completely different results from one another.
I do not believe you can just purchase the cannabis terpenes unless they were extracted from the cannabis. There are 133 different terpenes in cannabis alone. I don't even know what they all are, but I would like to learn more.
I am confident I am going in the right direction. I have already been having great success.
qwizoking
Well-Known Member
"I guess you don't understand either.
Steam distilling at the proper temperature will only release the terpenes. How could I possibly be wrong?"
Before you assume i dont understand, insulting my intelligence. Check to see if its you that doesn't understand...
"An aromatic terpenoid, THC has a very low solubility in water, but good solubility in most organic solvents, specifically lipids and alcohols.[6] THC, CBD, CBN,CBC, CBG and about 80 other molecules make up the phytocannabinoid family"...meaning compounds that hit cb receptors derived from plants
Sooooo lets review..thc is a terpene, not that it matters. As you say steam distilling at proper temp will keep only..blah blah....thc boils at a very similar temp as the other terpenes, some less some higher. And really what yiu can do is have a greater purity each time you distill, like with ethanol. The first distillation will still pick up alot. Just because a compound isnt at its specific boiling point doesnt mean your not close and its evaporating rapidly. Think steam when you heat water or something...
Now the terpenes found in cannabis including some that hit cb receptors (cannabinoids) are not unique, a popular one is found in cloves..all the terpenes can be aquired elsewhere.
Now of course the specific ratios arent the same as other plants, but they arent within cannabis either. Just like other plants, you know how many types and ranges of basil there are for example? .. but lets also not forget terpenes arent the only flavorful compounds. Think about why all blueberry strains are more relaxing...(which also have about 100 volatile compounds)
Also there is no such thing as 100% pure essential oil of any specific compound. Just like if you had an essential oil of cannabis it would be composed of many different volatile compounds.
I hope thats not our hang up here
But im glad your looking into this. When i was getting my degree, topicals or percutaneous administration was very exciting for me, well all forms of drug delivery really, and why my career also revolves around drug design and delivery. I hope you find yiur studies to be just as fulfilling
Steam distilling at the proper temperature will only release the terpenes. How could I possibly be wrong?"
Before you assume i dont understand, insulting my intelligence. Check to see if its you that doesn't understand...
"An aromatic terpenoid, THC has a very low solubility in water, but good solubility in most organic solvents, specifically lipids and alcohols.[6] THC, CBD, CBN,CBC, CBG and about 80 other molecules make up the phytocannabinoid family"...meaning compounds that hit cb receptors derived from plants
Sooooo lets review..thc is a terpene, not that it matters. As you say steam distilling at proper temp will keep only..blah blah....thc boils at a very similar temp as the other terpenes, some less some higher. And really what yiu can do is have a greater purity each time you distill, like with ethanol. The first distillation will still pick up alot. Just because a compound isnt at its specific boiling point doesnt mean your not close and its evaporating rapidly. Think steam when you heat water or something...
Now the terpenes found in cannabis including some that hit cb receptors (cannabinoids) are not unique, a popular one is found in cloves..all the terpenes can be aquired elsewhere.
Now of course the specific ratios arent the same as other plants, but they arent within cannabis either. Just like other plants, you know how many types and ranges of basil there are for example? .. but lets also not forget terpenes arent the only flavorful compounds. Think about why all blueberry strains are more relaxing...(which also have about 100 volatile compounds)
Also there is no such thing as 100% pure essential oil of any specific compound. Just like if you had an essential oil of cannabis it would be composed of many different volatile compounds.
I hope thats not our hang up here
But im glad your looking into this. When i was getting my degree, topicals or percutaneous administration was very exciting for me, well all forms of drug delivery really, and why my career also revolves around drug design and delivery. I hope you find yiur studies to be just as fulfilling
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Grow Goddess
Well-Known Member
@qwizoking
If you already know everything then why did you even bother asking. Is this a pride issue? It is starting to appear that way. Ah, it always looks that way with you anyway.
I have better things to do than argue.
You said it yourself, each plant terpene profile is different in that each is unique. Also, mixing plant terpene profiles can completely change the make up and potency. But you know all that since you do have your degree... In what you did not really say.
If you know so much about it, I have a question for you. How much cannabis does it take to produce one ounce of a terpene extraction? It is quite a common element in terpene extracting. I will know how much it will take by the time I get my masters.
Just curious, where did you study? Is it an accredited NAHA school? What is it you are certified in exactly?
If you already know everything then why did you even bother asking. Is this a pride issue? It is starting to appear that way. Ah, it always looks that way with you anyway.
I have better things to do than argue.
You said it yourself, each plant terpene profile is different in that each is unique. Also, mixing plant terpene profiles can completely change the make up and potency. But you know all that since you do have your degree... In what you did not really say.
If you know so much about it, I have a question for you. How much cannabis does it take to produce one ounce of a terpene extraction? It is quite a common element in terpene extracting. I will know how much it will take by the time I get my masters.
Just curious, where did you study? Is it an accredited NAHA school? What is it you are certified in exactly?
qwizoking
Well-Known Member
My original post wasnt really asking a question so much as questioning your statement. Its not argueing unless its back and forth nonsense. I was attempting to have a polite intelligent discussion. I could have just as easily spent a minute typing a big long thing bashing you pr your thought process. That wasnt the intent.
My post
"How would you extract one terpene and not another of similar bp..or any compound with similar bp?
Also why not just aquire/purchase the terpenes that are in cannabis, they arent unique"
As i was saying, thc is a type of terpene. Extracting one and you get the others.
As to your question.Because all the terps esters etc are soluble in butane/alcohol when you do an extraction you collect all of them, hash oil is essentially essential oil (lol, jokes) and most bud yields about 20%
As to my degree..i guess i dont talk about too much but definitely bring up aspects all the time, i dont know, i figured you knew
I studied at texas tech and recieved my pharm d. (Doctor of pharmacy)
Lol i dont know about naha, but their program is top 10 in the country..
I currently work designing new drugs and drug delivery systems. But was a compound/nuclear pharmacist for a good while. Tailoring meds to specific patients and also their requests
My post
"How would you extract one terpene and not another of similar bp..or any compound with similar bp?
Also why not just aquire/purchase the terpenes that are in cannabis, they arent unique"
As i was saying, thc is a type of terpene. Extracting one and you get the others.
As to your question.Because all the terps esters etc are soluble in butane/alcohol when you do an extraction you collect all of them, hash oil is essentially essential oil (lol, jokes) and most bud yields about 20%
As to my degree..i guess i dont talk about too much but definitely bring up aspects all the time, i dont know, i figured you knew
I studied at texas tech and recieved my pharm d. (Doctor of pharmacy)
Lol i dont know about naha, but their program is top 10 in the country..
I currently work designing new drugs and drug delivery systems. But was a compound/nuclear pharmacist for a good while. Tailoring meds to specific patients and also their requests
Grow Goddess
Well-Known Member
LOL! too dang funny. I was right to begin with. I can clearly see you have no clue what I am talking about.
You have nice credentials and all and I am not putting them down, but they don't have much to do with what I am talking about, actually, they are more of an opposite.
you are not going to get a 20 percent return when conducting a genuine essential oil or terpene extraction with cannabis. Some essential oil extractions requires hundreds of pounds of the flowers or plant material to produce one ounce of the essential oil or terpene extract. Most of the essential oils are so potent you cannot put them directly onto the skin as they will burn. In most cases they have to be diluted with carrier oils when used topically. One of the most popular carrier oils is fractionated coconut oil. Then there is use by way of diffusing into the air.
You are speaking of producing a concentrate. I am talking about real essential oils, pure. When I produce an essential oil from cannabis it will not contain any THC, it will be a pure essential oil. After I get my certification in aromatherapy, I will then go on to become a master herbalist.
Edit: It is difficult presenting this into the community because most get the wrong impression and think I am referring to an actual concentrate or extraction. Let me help by pointing something out. You can't get one without getting the other, but you can get the other without getting one. Maybe this will help you understand. The essential oil extraction I will be doing with cannabis will be similar to that of a vaporizer. Picture the vaporizer set at its lowest temps. There is your terpenes. If you inhale, you are extracting only the terpenes and not any THC. That is what I am looking to do, extract out only the terpenes the aroma and possiblly some of the flavor, that is all, with low temperature steam distilling with distilled water. I will consider myself lucky to get a gram or two from a pound of flowers. I would consider this gram or two to be priceless medicinally speaking. The greatest thing about this is usually you only have a couple of options when purchasing essential oils of the same type. Usually the plants used come from different parts of the world and each has a different profile. With cannabis, i am just speculating here, due to all of the different aromas and flavors, that there will be drastically different terpenes profiles and a huge array of options like no other plant has to offer, just guessing here
You have nice credentials and all and I am not putting them down, but they don't have much to do with what I am talking about, actually, they are more of an opposite.
you are not going to get a 20 percent return when conducting a genuine essential oil or terpene extraction with cannabis. Some essential oil extractions requires hundreds of pounds of the flowers or plant material to produce one ounce of the essential oil or terpene extract. Most of the essential oils are so potent you cannot put them directly onto the skin as they will burn. In most cases they have to be diluted with carrier oils when used topically. One of the most popular carrier oils is fractionated coconut oil. Then there is use by way of diffusing into the air.
You are speaking of producing a concentrate. I am talking about real essential oils, pure. When I produce an essential oil from cannabis it will not contain any THC, it will be a pure essential oil. After I get my certification in aromatherapy, I will then go on to become a master herbalist.
Edit: It is difficult presenting this into the community because most get the wrong impression and think I am referring to an actual concentrate or extraction. Let me help by pointing something out. You can't get one without getting the other, but you can get the other without getting one. Maybe this will help you understand. The essential oil extraction I will be doing with cannabis will be similar to that of a vaporizer. Picture the vaporizer set at its lowest temps. There is your terpenes. If you inhale, you are extracting only the terpenes and not any THC. That is what I am looking to do, extract out only the terpenes the aroma and possiblly some of the flavor, that is all, with low temperature steam distilling with distilled water. I will consider myself lucky to get a gram or two from a pound of flowers. I would consider this gram or two to be priceless medicinally speaking. The greatest thing about this is usually you only have a couple of options when purchasing essential oils of the same type. Usually the plants used come from different parts of the world and each has a different profile. With cannabis, i am just speculating here, due to all of the different aromas and flavors, that there will be drastically different terpenes profiles and a huge array of options like no other plant has to offer, just guessing here
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qwizoking
Well-Known Member
Yea maybe if yiur extracting from rose petals, which have an incredibly low yield, like a thousandth of a %.
But on the other end nutmeg can give 25% yields... and good bud is covered in the producing trichs
i do know all this, and this is the reason thc for example must be kept in a trichome, it induces apoptosis, little cellular explosions of sorts and destroys plant matter and the rogue bug
I know that they can burn skin, a high portion of aldehydes and phenols are quite irritating like the aforementioned clove oil
So then what is the difference between what i call hash oil and essential oil
Again i ask. How are you going to selectively remove or not extract thc, got the same boiling point and is a terpene..but we really shouldnt get so caught up on terpenes.. many of the terps have a higher boiling point than thc, you can extract the ligjter compounds, mostly esters and such by doing this. And as i was saying distillation doesnt work like that, where yiu can completely select a compound or bp, this is why some alcohol is distilled 6 times, everything thats volatile is always evaporating
Being a pure essential oil shouldnt mean it lacks thc
Anyway, whatever..do what you do
But on the other end nutmeg can give 25% yields... and good bud is covered in the producing trichs
i do know all this, and this is the reason thc for example must be kept in a trichome, it induces apoptosis, little cellular explosions of sorts and destroys plant matter and the rogue bug
I know that they can burn skin, a high portion of aldehydes and phenols are quite irritating like the aforementioned clove oil
So then what is the difference between what i call hash oil and essential oil
Again i ask. How are you going to selectively remove or not extract thc, got the same boiling point and is a terpene..but we really shouldnt get so caught up on terpenes.. many of the terps have a higher boiling point than thc, you can extract the ligjter compounds, mostly esters and such by doing this. And as i was saying distillation doesnt work like that, where yiu can completely select a compound or bp, this is why some alcohol is distilled 6 times, everything thats volatile is always evaporating
Being a pure essential oil shouldnt mean it lacks thc
Anyway, whatever..do what you do
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Grow Goddess
Well-Known Member
I thought the vaporizer example would help your understanding, but obviously it did not.
Yes, I will do what I do.
Yes, I will do what I do.
qwizoking
Well-Known Member
No, sadly...
I tried to explain the faults in that process, but failing miserably.
I understand what your attempting. Using a lower temp than what you would vape at to leave thc behind and extract a "cannabis essential oil" thats strictly terpenes.
What im trying to get across is that a large portion of terpenes have a higher bp (boiling point) than thc does. Meaning your essential oil will be lacking and hardly representing the array of terps produced. Unless heated to a little above thc, as if you were using a vaporizer as normal.
Also esters and aldehydes alcohols etc impart alot of the flavor and have a boiling point Bout half terpenes do.
Even if done at low temps it will still contain some thc..
So my original question was why not just buy those compounds that make up the essential oil, its easy enough and with the compounds separated you can do a sort of trial and error and play with the terp, see how individual ones effect the high or whatever your aim is
But it seems as if your not really listening
Could be i havet slept in a couple days and im explaining poorly
I tried to explain the faults in that process, but failing miserably.
I understand what your attempting. Using a lower temp than what you would vape at to leave thc behind and extract a "cannabis essential oil" thats strictly terpenes.
What im trying to get across is that a large portion of terpenes have a higher bp (boiling point) than thc does. Meaning your essential oil will be lacking and hardly representing the array of terps produced. Unless heated to a little above thc, as if you were using a vaporizer as normal.
Also esters and aldehydes alcohols etc impart alot of the flavor and have a boiling point Bout half terpenes do.
Even if done at low temps it will still contain some thc..
So my original question was why not just buy those compounds that make up the essential oil, its easy enough and with the compounds separated you can do a sort of trial and error and play with the terp, see how individual ones effect the high or whatever your aim is
But it seems as if your not really listening
Could be i havet slept in a couple days and im explaining poorly
Grow Goddess
Well-Known Member
or that maybe you haven't slept in a couple of days and you are not catching it.
to purchase the essential oil profile of cannabis, well, is not purchasable that I am aware of. Matching the profile with other essential oils would be impossible.
Sorry, but you are wrong about the terpenes that I am referring to. They evaporate out well below the boiling point. If you did boil out the essential oils, and recaptured them, those would be worthless. They would all be oxidized and damaged and serve no medicinal purpose.
I am not speaking this from reading or researching, I am speaking from experience.
Have you compared the difference? I have. My new concentrates carry the terpenes and are fully decarbed. I have been comparing them side by side with heat created extractions and they are a night and day difference.
If you don't start opening your mind, no progress will be made.
To answer your question, would I consider hash oil to be an essential oil? No, I do not. Yes, it can contain essential oils as long as it was not boiled. I don't care if it is in a closed system. The compounds I am speaking of, if they are exposed to that type of heat, sealed or unsealed, they are damaged. Maybe some of the terpenes require those temps, but not the terpenes I am seeking out. I consider hash oil to be a plant extract.
Again, I will prove my point. The aroma and flavor of marijuana is so delicate it can evaporate off of the plant just from being exposed to the atmosphere. THC will not simply evaporate, it will degrade though. I believe terpenes will evaporate from cannabis flowers left out in the open.
The essential oils are not meant to be heated. Essential oil diffusers do not use heat. The terpenes are so delicate you can't use heat to diffuse them into the air without damaging them. That is why these devices are used.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00I9SKES8/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=358U5H49JDLIR&coliid=IV2X91MKYO134&psc=1
Then there are these that do not require any heat or electricity to diffuse into the air for premium essential oil aroma therapy.
http://www.amazon.com/Pure-Essential-Reed-Diffuser-Liquid/dp/B00EBPOVGE/ref=sr_1_1?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1429978677&sr=1-1&keywords=essential oil reed diffuser
It is worth taking the time to really learn about essential oils and the benefits. The word oil does throw people off, it is more like an alcohol, extremely fumy and liquid.
When I am finished doing an essential oil extraction from the buds of cannabis, the buds will still be useable. They will just be lacking aroma and probably most of the taste. The leftover buds would be great for making RSO or any other extract that requires heat.
Edit: another example that should be considered. Towards the end of harvest, when the plants are starting to ripen up it smells like skunk outside my house. Within that aroma, there are terpenes. No boiling required....
to purchase the essential oil profile of cannabis, well, is not purchasable that I am aware of. Matching the profile with other essential oils would be impossible.
Sorry, but you are wrong about the terpenes that I am referring to. They evaporate out well below the boiling point. If you did boil out the essential oils, and recaptured them, those would be worthless. They would all be oxidized and damaged and serve no medicinal purpose.
I am not speaking this from reading or researching, I am speaking from experience.
Have you compared the difference? I have. My new concentrates carry the terpenes and are fully decarbed. I have been comparing them side by side with heat created extractions and they are a night and day difference.
If you don't start opening your mind, no progress will be made.
To answer your question, would I consider hash oil to be an essential oil? No, I do not. Yes, it can contain essential oils as long as it was not boiled. I don't care if it is in a closed system. The compounds I am speaking of, if they are exposed to that type of heat, sealed or unsealed, they are damaged. Maybe some of the terpenes require those temps, but not the terpenes I am seeking out. I consider hash oil to be a plant extract.
Again, I will prove my point. The aroma and flavor of marijuana is so delicate it can evaporate off of the plant just from being exposed to the atmosphere. THC will not simply evaporate, it will degrade though. I believe terpenes will evaporate from cannabis flowers left out in the open.
The essential oils are not meant to be heated. Essential oil diffusers do not use heat. The terpenes are so delicate you can't use heat to diffuse them into the air without damaging them. That is why these devices are used.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00I9SKES8/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=358U5H49JDLIR&coliid=IV2X91MKYO134&psc=1
Then there are these that do not require any heat or electricity to diffuse into the air for premium essential oil aroma therapy.
http://www.amazon.com/Pure-Essential-Reed-Diffuser-Liquid/dp/B00EBPOVGE/ref=sr_1_1?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1429978677&sr=1-1&keywords=essential oil reed diffuser
It is worth taking the time to really learn about essential oils and the benefits. The word oil does throw people off, it is more like an alcohol, extremely fumy and liquid.
When I am finished doing an essential oil extraction from the buds of cannabis, the buds will still be useable. They will just be lacking aroma and probably most of the taste. The leftover buds would be great for making RSO or any other extract that requires heat.
Edit: another example that should be considered. Towards the end of harvest, when the plants are starting to ripen up it smells like skunk outside my house. Within that aroma, there are terpenes. No boiling required....
qwizoking
Well-Known Member
So which terps are you seeking out? And why not the others?
And yes if you can smell citrus or pine etc thc is also being volatized and evaporating..again it is a terpene too, and with a lower boiling point than most terps
Steam distillation or distillation in general can be used to extract sensitive compounds, reduced pressure lowers the bp and little degradation occurs. But with most sensitive cmpounds a solvent is used to make the essential oil as we do when making hash oil
But not all compounds are very sensitive at all.
So are you after a specific low bp terp? And why not all of the compounds. I mean the skunk smell isnt even from terps
But im done, were getting nowhere and into the senseless back and forth
And yes if you can smell citrus or pine etc thc is also being volatized and evaporating..again it is a terpene too, and with a lower boiling point than most terps
Steam distillation or distillation in general can be used to extract sensitive compounds, reduced pressure lowers the bp and little degradation occurs. But with most sensitive cmpounds a solvent is used to make the essential oil as we do when making hash oil
But not all compounds are very sensitive at all.
So are you after a specific low bp terp? And why not all of the compounds. I mean the skunk smell isnt even from terps
But im done, were getting nowhere and into the senseless back and forth
Grow Goddess
Well-Known Member
Aromatherapy -- Terpenes
there is much learning to do
There is no solvent in extracting essential oil or terpenes. Water - distilled water as I stated above. Low heat steam distilling. The distilling part is separating the terpenes from the water. I am going after all of the terpenes that can possibly be gathered using the aromatherapy steam distilling techniques to obtain pure 100% essential oils. That is the only way it can really be done. There is an alcohol technique, and it is not what you are thinking.
Did you know that some terpenes float and others sink???
You are not going to find educated materials in marijuana books when it comes to terpene extractions. You want to learn about terpene extractions? Start with an essential oils book.
I have seen others on these forums discussing first removing the terpenes then using the bud material to make BHO, then adding the extracted terpenes into the finished BHO.
I think you are confusing CBD and THC with other terpenes.
I am done with this debate too. But just beginning on my adventure with essential terpenes
there is much learning to do
There is no solvent in extracting essential oil or terpenes. Water - distilled water as I stated above. Low heat steam distilling. The distilling part is separating the terpenes from the water. I am going after all of the terpenes that can possibly be gathered using the aromatherapy steam distilling techniques to obtain pure 100% essential oils. That is the only way it can really be done. There is an alcohol technique, and it is not what you are thinking.
Did you know that some terpenes float and others sink???
You are not going to find educated materials in marijuana books when it comes to terpene extractions. You want to learn about terpene extractions? Start with an essential oils book.
I have seen others on these forums discussing first removing the terpenes then using the bud material to make BHO, then adding the extracted terpenes into the finished BHO.
I think you are confusing CBD and THC with other terpenes.
I am done with this debate too. But just beginning on my adventure with essential terpenes