12/12 From Seed Experiment - 21 Strains

[Hot Diggity Sog]

By itself very acceptable temps but I do run a little lower with chiller. Specifically 65, but it climbs up to 69 before the chiller kicks in. Point is if you want to drop it one or two degrees you can. Colder solution does allow for slightly increased DO.

The air stones are already sort of extra. The flow is constantly aerated along the path too plus you got the venturi. If the air stones, or lack of, would be the problem, then theoretically the plants at the end of the line should be more affected than at the start. With multiple strains that can be misleading though, the one at the end could be the one that deals best with it.

I noticed some of that curling I think you are referring to, I got that a little sometimes before they take off, once they are able to transpire enough and fast enough it always disappeared.

Also, you mentioned you couldn't lift the pots from most plants to check the roots. While that is obviously inconvenient now it's by itself a good sign. If the roots gone bad and you lift a pot it won't resists as much (and break off its roots so be careful). Just something I considered doing myself before I figured I can take pics of my roots through the holes of my sprayers, melt a peeping hole in a tube near on of the worst plants, so you can check the roots.

They are probably done creating most of the root mass by now, is it possible the shallowness of the flow is causing issues now? Can you see if it raised slightly because of the roots?

I'm going to be making some alterations during this run...something I was hoping to avoid.
I'm not very satisfied with the rate of water flow. If I pull a net pot up high enough to see the water, it looks almost stagnant.

I swapped out my 396 gpm feed pump with one almost twice its size and saw no improvement in the rate. When I first set this stuff up I made a bone-headed decision. The water pump pumps from the rez, thru the chiller and then into the tubes. The chiller might be limiting the flow. I'm going to redesign this aspect 1st so a pump moves water from the rez, thru the chiller and back into the rez. Have a separate pump that moves water from the rez to the tubes. I'll try both pump sizes and see if flow is affected. If it is not, then it's gotta be the 1/2" hose that is the limiting factor...too small. In this case, I will have to drill another and equip it with another fitting and run 2 feed pumps to the tubes. Running 2 feeds is part of my new design anyway so this will be a good proof of concept. Better flow and even more importantly, if a pump dies I'm not fucked.

 

[Sativied]

I
The chiller might be limiting the flow. I'm going to redesign this aspect 1st so a pump moves water from the rez, thru the chiller and back into the rez. Have a separate pump that moves water from the rez to the tubes.

That's how I run as well, 2 aqua pumps, one for tubes, smaller one for chiller. Downside in my case is that the pump for the chiller also warms up the water (even if it would normally not get too warm) so the chiller runs more often than when using the same pump for tubes and chiller. The upside is that you get two waterfalls for increase DO.

A major factor in aquapump's flow rate is usually above all the.. ummmm, I don't know the english word lol.... the 'up-pump-height'. Oh, google shows me it's called 'head', 'delivery head'. Point is, if you have to pump the water upwards the flow decreases drastically. If that is the case and you can raise the rez. I have my water pump hanging in the rez rather than standing on the bottom, just to save another 6inches of pumping upwards.

A hose is usually too small if it pushes out the water out in a too harsh stream or if the pressure of the pump is really too low (which again can be a result merely from having to pump upwards too far). Smaller hose means relatively faster flow (inside that hose), not necessarily less throughput in total. I actually do that on purpose with the chiller's return waterfall, I fold up a piece of plastic and put that in the end of the hose that ends slightly above the rez, to narrow it. That results in the return waterfall from the chiller 'spraying' in the soup but does not noticeable reduce the throughput (because the pump can handle it).

My feed line is probably 3/8", but it spreads out in 8x 4mm lines with the sprayers attached. You got more tubes and can probably use bigger but I don't think it's 'the' issue.

That head value differs a lot per pump, per brand, but for example:

That 4000l/hr (roughly 1100gph) as you can see, loses performance quite rapidly if you pump higher than 3 feet/1m.

I use a 350GPh for the tubes, would have liked a bit more already if you used 396 gph then the one with twice the size seems more suitable for your setup yes.

If I pull a net pot up high enough to see the water, it looks almost stagnant.

Then I do think that is likely the primary cause of the plants not looking optimal. If the throughput is not good enough and the flow already shallow it's possible pools form in valleys of roots sort of speak, and those parts are then not as often refreshed as the main stream. That would result in drooping plants exactly like overwatering on soil. This is also why GH aeroflo systems (and my tubes) contain sprayers, not to mimic aero, but to aerate the flow and spread out the supply feed. I won't be using sprayers if I rebuild but that does indeed require the flow is optimal (and will be less of any issue with separate tubes like you already planned).

 

[Mohican]

The best hydro plants I have seen had roots in massively bubbling water. I have never seen a downside to adding more bubbles. I am still not convinced that the O2 is the reason that the plants are so happy with bubbles. Our atmosphere is 80% nitrogen.

As for the Pro-TeKt - I use double with no ill effects. Pour it in slowly as you mix. You will see it react with your mix. I am pretty sure that the label says to add it last. Since I am in soil now I add it and Cal Mag with every watering. Both of these additives are the only ones I have used that I would call essential for Cannabis. When I ran out and stopped using them I had bug and vigor issues.

Are you using a micro nutrient additive? When I found out that adding copper to your water makes citrus fruit sweeter, I started adding micronutrients to my feed. I started with AN Jungle Juice Micro. It worked great on my whole garden! Now I use liquid kelp because I am growing organically. Kelp would probably be bad in the res but AN Micro may help with any deficiencies. I use it at quarter strength. Pro-TeKt and Cal Mag are the only additives I have found that are OK to use in higher doses. Everything else I use at about quarter strength and then half strength when there is massive growth or flowering.

How fast and heavy is the flow of water through your tubes?

Sorry if it sounds like I am criticizing or lecturing - I just want to help you succeed at this frickin amazing experiment you have going on!

Cheers,
Mo

 

[jigfresh]

Only downside to so much oxygen is it can raise pH, as far as I know.

 

[Mohican]

I wonder if running CO2 will help? Have you toyed with adding that dimension to your setup?

I am working on plans for a completely sealed grow lab where I can measure each variable until I have the perfect environment.

I was amazed at how much my indoor girl drank! Made my room way too humid!

 

[Hot Diggity Sog]

I wonder if running CO2 will help? Have you toyed with adding that dimension to your setup?

I am working on plans for a completely sealed grow lab where I can measure each variable until I have the perfect environment.

I was amazed at how much my indoor girl drank! Made my room way too humid!

I haven't but only because I was not really sure if it was needed since my basement is so large. Something I better start reading up on though I guess.

 

[Hot Diggity Sog]

The best hydro plants I have seen had roots in massively bubbling water. I have never seen a downside to adding more bubbles. I am still not convinced that the O2 is the reason that the plants are so happy with bubbles. Our atmosphere is 80% nitrogen.

As for the Pro-TeKt - I use double with no ill effects. Pour it in slowly as you mix. You will see it react with your mix. I am pretty sure that the label says to add it last. Since I am in soil now I add it and Cal Mag with every watering. Both of these additives are the only ones I have used that I would call essential for Cannabis. When I ran out and stopped using them I had bug and vigor issues.

Are you using a micro nutrient additive? When I found out that adding copper to your water makes citrus fruit sweeter, I started adding micronutrients to my feed. I started with AN Jungle Juice Micro. It worked great on my whole garden! Now I use liquid kelp because I am growing organically. Kelp would probably be bad in the res but AN Micro may help with any deficiencies. I use it at quarter strength. Pro-TeKt and Cal Mag are the only additives I have found that are OK to use in higher doses. Everything else I use at about quarter strength and then half strength when there is massive growth or flowering.

How fast and heavy is the flow of water through your tubes?

Sorry if it sounds like I am criticizing or lecturing - I just want to help you succeed at this frickin amazing experiment you have going on!

Cheers,
Mo

OK on the Pro-Tekt...it arrived today btw.

One of the 7 parts to my nutes is a Micro bottle so yes, using Micro's.

Regarding the speed of flow...I'll time this next time I change the rez but when I remove the drain pipe and let the water drain into 5 gallon buckets, I'm going to estimate it takes about 2.5 to 3 minutes for the 5 gallon bucket to fill up. So that's the rate of fresh water coming in as well.

 

[Hot Diggity Sog]

That's how I run as well, 2 aqua pumps, one for tubes, smaller one for chiller. Downside in my case is that the pump for the chiller also warms up the water (even if it would normally not get too warm) so the chiller runs more often than when using the same pump for tubes and chiller. The upside is that you get two waterfalls for increase DO.

A major factor in aquapump's flow rate is usually above all the.. ummmm, I don't know the english word lol.... the 'up-pump-height'. Oh, google shows me it's called 'head', 'delivery head'. Point is, if you have to pump the water upwards the flow decreases drastically. If that is the case and you can raise the rez. I have my water pump hanging in the rez rather than standing on the bottom, just to save another 6inches of pumping upwards.

A hose is usually too small if it pushes out the water out in a too harsh stream or if the pressure of the pump is really too low (which again can be a result merely from having to pump upwards too far). Smaller hose means relatively faster flow (inside that hose), not necessarily less throughput in total. I actually do that on purpose with the chiller's return waterfall, I fold up a piece of plastic and put that in the end of the hose that ends slightly above the rez, to narrow it. That results in the return waterfall from the chiller 'spraying' in the soup but does not noticeable reduce the throughput (because the pump can handle it).

My feed line is probably 3/8", but it spreads out in 8x 4mm lines with the sprayers attached. You got more tubes and can probably use bigger but I don't think it's 'the' issue.

That head value differs a lot per pump, per brand, but for example:
View attachment 3466269
That 4000l/hr (roughly 1100gph) as you can see, loses performance quite rapidly if you pump higher than 3 feet/1m.

I use a 350GPh for the tubes, would have liked a bit more already if you used 396 gph then the one with twice the size seems more suitable for your setup yes.

Then I do think that is likely the primary cause of the plants not looking optimal. If the throughput is not good enough and the flow already shallow it's possible pools form in valleys of roots sort of speak, and those parts are then not as often refreshed as the main stream. That would result in drooping plants exactly like overwatering on soil. This is also why GH aeroflo systems (and my tubes) contain sprayers, not to mimic aero, but to aerate the flow and spread out the supply feed. I won't be using sprayers if I rebuild but that does indeed require the flow is optimal (and will be less of any issue with separate tubes like you already planned).

If the throughput is not good enough and the flow already shallow it's possible pools form in valleys of roots sort of speak, and those parts are then not as often refreshed as the main stream. That would result in drooping plants exactly like overwatering on soil.

Bingo! This has to be it. I'm going to add that 2nd input valve and if I have space maybe even a 3rd.

 

[Hot Diggity Sog]

Chapter 3 Update
Day 44
Flowering Day 11

The girls seem to be doing a 2nd stretch. The initial stretch seemed to be interrupted...maybe due to recent issues. At any rate, starting to see a little bit of bud starting to form...very exciting! The C99 plants...I'm just not sure what to make of them. They look so weird to me. Very sativa. Very thin leaves and stems. At this point, my expectations are pretty low for them.




C99


Sour Blueberry


Blue Dream


Blueberry Headband


These might be the last pics I take with the HPS turned on...sorry they suck.

 

[Sativied]

I see what you mean with the C99, it branched out a lot, too much to form a good main cola and not enough to get smaller colas on the branches. Still, I think she'll surprise you, it's normal that it starts out with less pistils, less dense pompons of pistils that is.

Anyway, looks pretty good man. Once you got the flow improved and the AB nutes things should go a bit smoother. AB contains plent of calmag by the way... It's complete.

All the petioles, leaf stems, look healthy green. Shows again it's unlikely a nute def. the cotyledons are probaby still green too right?

 

[Hot Diggity Sog]

I see what you mean with the C99, it branched out a lot, too much to form a good main cola and not enough to get smaller colas on the branches. Still, I think she'll surprise you, it's normal that it starts out with less pistils, less dense pompons of pistils that is.

Anyway, looks pretty good man. Once you got the flow improved and the AB nutes things should go a bit smoother. AB contains plent of calmag by the way... It's complete.

All the petioles, leaf stems, look healthy green. Shows again it's unlikely a nute def. the cotyledons ate probaby still green too right?

I'm going to guess 1/2 of them are. Next time I'm down I'll take a close look. Cool regarding the calmag...BPN has it as well and since I have well water I try and avoid it now. Havent used calmag at all this round.

 

[Mohican]

Here is my mainlined landrace sativa when I started flower:




Here is what she produced:










Cheers,
Mo

 

[Sativied]

If you do happen to run into Ca or Mg def the easiest solution is to raise the PH a little to 6.2-6.3 for a couple of days. Just one of many examples, some variation but for Ca and Mg it's fairly consistent:

That's why ph fluctuation is actually a good thing and keeping it fixed on 5.8 for example is not ideal.

 

[Mohican]

Looks like swinging from 4 to 7.5 would be beneficial!

 

[Hot Diggity Sog]

Here is my mainlined landrace sativa when I started flower:




Here is what she produced:










Cheers,
Mo

HAHA! That's awesome. Alright...we'll see soon enough

 

[skunkd0c]

The best hydro plants I have seen had roots in massively bubbling water. I have never seen a downside to adding more bubbles. I am still not convinced that the O2 is the reason that the plants are so happy with bubbles. Our atmosphere is 80% nitrogen.

As for the Pro-TeKt - I use double with no ill effects. Pour it in slowly as you mix. You will see it react with your mix. I am pretty sure that the label says to add it last. Since I am in soil now I add it and Cal Mag with every watering. Both of these additives are the only ones I have used that I would call essential for Cannabis. When I ran out and stopped using them I had bug and vigor issues.

Are you using a micro nutrient additive? When I found out that adding copper to your water makes citrus fruit sweeter, I started adding micronutrients to my feed. I started with AN Jungle Juice Micro. It worked great on my whole garden! Now I use liquid kelp because I am growing organically. Kelp would probably be bad in the res but AN Micro may help with any deficiencies. I use it at quarter strength. Pro-TeKt and Cal Mag are the only additives I have found that are OK to use in higher doses. Everything else I use at about quarter strength and then half strength when there is massive growth or flowering.

How fast and heavy is the flow of water through your tubes?

Sorry if it sounds like I am criticizing or lecturing - I just want to help you succeed at this frickin amazing experiment you have going on!

Cheers,
Mo

i have always found the logic of dwc hard to get my head round, plants do not like sitting in water, so the bubbles are there to stop them drowning ,
i know dwc does very well i have built some systems before , it just makes more sense to me to keep the roots in shallow water, with as much of the root mass directly in air as possible
30-40% nft or even better aero 100%

allowing roots to grow into a root ball or in pots is not the best idea also imo,
training roots to grow out evenly and flat allows the roots to occupy the maximum surface area the roots can develop into to a thin but dense rootmat ,
the more surface area of roots directly in the stream the more points the plant can feed from
training the roots to grow organised and flat allows the roots to be covered by a very shallow 3-5mm constantly moving stream of nute solution
because the stream is shallow and spread out wide over a large surface area "tray" it can easy pull in oxygen as it travels across the roots
plants will grow very big and yield well in this type of system, but i guess the downside is they are not so practical space wise, spreading out the roots like this takes up more
space than cramming roots into a pot

peace

 

[Hot Diggity Sog]

Minor update:

I added a 2nd feed pump and wow...good and bad. 1st off, the water is coming out of the line much more aggressively than the line going thru the chiller. The rate of flow is very good now but defects in the tubes have surfaced. There are some spots where leveling is a problem...specifically the last row under the C99's. The water level is within a 1/2" of overflowing thru the net pots. I'm going to keep the pump running and just monitor. My rez level dropped considerably...there is at least 5 more gallons in the tubes now...maybe more than that. I've ordered some more pumps and will experiment using 2 weaker pumps not running thru the chiller. Will report back.

 

[Hot Diggity Sog]

@Sativied
You've probably already answered this so I apologize in advance but did you find there was a sweet spot when it came to water depth in the tubes? Does the air in between the water and the net pots play much of a role?

Btw...I turned off the 2nd pump for now. I'm not comfortable with how high the levels are right now. Will revisit tomorrow.

 

[Sativied]

There's little to no space between the flow and the bottom of my cups. By itself the distance doesn't matter a whole lot (within reason of course) but it's best to avoid sudden changes during the cycle, If that second pump ends up raising the level a lot it would be ideal to set the pump at a lower setting first if possible and change the level gradually. Also don't want to go so high you start flushing the stem instead of the roots.

The second pump does sound like an improvement if it increases the flow a lot. Perhaps try it on a timer. That 1/2" from overflowing does sound too high, to get that high something must obstruct the flow, ie. like a dam, is the drain pipe clogged with roots from the last plant?

And np man, ask all you want.

 

[Hot Diggity Sog]

There's little to no space between the flow and the bottom of my cups. By itself the distance doesn't matter a whole lot (within reason of course) but it's best to avoid sudden changes during the cycle, If that second pump ends up raising the level a lot it would be ideal to set the pump at a lower setting first if possible and change the level gradually. Also don't want to go so high you start flushing the stem instead of the roots.

The second pump does sound like an improvement if it increases the flow a lot. Perhaps try it on a timer. That 1/2" from overflowing does sound too high, to get that high something must obstruct the flow, ie. like a dam, is the drain pipe clogged with roots from the last plant?

And np man, ask all you want.

The high level is due to the contraption being uneven and out of level in spots. My newest design will do a better job on that topic. The immediate fix I think is to shim that side up a little bit.
2nd pump on a timer is certainly a good option too.