So You Hate the EPA, huh?

[Rob Roy]

The EPA has cleaned up thousands of toxic sites and had a failure at one.

Btw if the EPA Didn't do anything at the mine. The mine would still be polluting the river.

Why are you here? No one cares about the opinion of a child molester Like you.
And that's not slander. You advocate for the right to have sex with children.

If you google EPA bribes a plethora of information comes up, Prohibitionist.

I'm here for the high brow conversation.

I advocate for anybody that HAS rights to be able to use them as THEY see fit, as long as they don't take away another persons right while doing so, not according to the dictates of a dick, dick.

 

[bravedave]

I'm sorry. Can you list ALL the EPA failures

Google it.

 

[Fogdog]

No, sometimes you CAN sue the government, but the point is the government IS monolithic and a monopoly on force.

That is easy to prove. In a dispute with the government, there are no disinterested parties that arbitrate the dispute, the government is the plaintiff AND the judge. There is no mechanism to appeal OUTSIDE the government, they hold a forcible monopoly on ahem "resolution" of any disputes they are involved in.

Changing your argument mid-stream are you? You couldn't win the prior argument and you can't win this one either. The courts are part of our system of government. This is true. The other bit about the US government being plaintiff and judge is not. Do you need a lesson in civics? In a jury trial, the people sitting in judgement are citizens of the community. The judge runs the trial and certainly affects the outcome but he doesn't decide guilt or innocence, the jury does that. And if the losing party doesn't like the outcome of the trial, they in fact can appeal the result. All within the framework of our legal system.

The nutty idea that people at odds with each other will agree upon an arbitrator is laughable. Each party will only agree on an arbitrator that they feel will give them the best chance to win. They will pick the one they like best and reject the ones that their opponent picks. There will never be a resolution to this.

I answered your question, now answer me this: If a person or a company pollutes the surface water that runs onto your property, renders your property unusable, denies doing so and refuses to go through arbitration, what means would you use to collect compensation?

LOLbertarian, indeed

 

[ChesusRice]

Google it.

I did and they were outnumbered a 1000 to 1 with their sucesses

 

[ChesusRice]

Changing your argument mid-stream are you? You couldn't win the prior argument and you can't win this one either. The courts are part of our system of government. This is true. The other bit about the US government being plaintiff and judge is not. Do you need a lesson in civics? In a jury trial, the people sitting in judgement are citizens of the community. The judge runs the trial and certainly affects the outcome but he doesn't decide guilt or innocence, the jury does that. And if the losing party doesn't like the outcome of the trial, they in fact can appeal the result. All within the framework of our legal system.

The nutty idea that people at odds with each other will agree upon an arbitrator is laughable. Each party will only agree on an arbitrator that they feel will give them the best chance to win. They will pick the one they like best and reject the ones that their opponent picks. There will never be a resolution to this.

I answered your question, now answer me this: If a person or a company pollutes the surface water that runs onto your property, renders your property unusable, denies doing so and refuses to go through arbitration, what means would you use to collect compensation?

LOLbertarian, indeed

Ask racist child molester what recourse would he have if a upstream property owner dammed his water source making his land worthless

 

[Fogdog]

If you google EPA bribes a plethora of information comes up, Prohibitionist.

I'm here for the high brow conversation.

I advocate for anybody that HAS rights to be able to use them as THEY see fit, as long as they don't take away another persons right while doing so, not according to the dictates of a dick, dick.

I googled "EPA bribes" and found this:

https://sunlightfoundation.com/blog/2011/10/04/koch-industries-had-inside-man-at-the-epa/

Also, Monsanto. Also, energy companies that frack. In other words, people within the EPA can be bought for a whole lot of money by corporations with a whole lot more. Nothing new or "high browed" about this. So, what's your point?

The blowout that polluted the Animas river was not the result of bribery. It's pretty complicated but from what I could tell, the EPA was working with the county and the mine owner to prevent the river system from going into Super Fund Status. It was a case where the EPA overstepped its mandate and ended up costing the taxpayers a whopping big bill to clean up the spill because it was trying to minimize red tape and government oversight. They shouldn't have done it but I'm not sure they had the wrong reasons. And corruption wasn't involved.

 

[bravedave]

Oh man, so you are saying that industry would never make these kinds of discharges if the EPA were not around? Wasn't there a huge spill of waste from a coal mine a year ago or so? It took out a city's water supply and as far as I know, they are still trucking water in. There have been some enormous mine-spills in Idaho too. Colorado is dotted with old abandoned mines that are now filled with toxic water. So, yeah, free market solves everything (snicker).

The Animas River spill was from one of those abandoned mines -- the Gold King mine, which shut down in 1923. The abandoned mine was leaking toxic water from an earth and timber dam at the time and water was building up behind the earthwork. The EPA was trying to avert the disaster and, it went wrong, no excuses for that. At the time of the Colorado gold rush, mines were dug, money was banked and the owners moved on to other things. Toxic waste water became somebody else's problem, like you, me and the EPA. This is how your unregulated free market works.

Its not 1923. It is not even 1970. Media and Social media creates alot more pressure. The EPA needs some sort of oversight that comes from above them. As an unelected agency they should not be able to shut down businesses without due process outside of their own. Their policies have hurt farmers, fishermen, miners, consumers. Sure, sometimes with solid science but many times with speculative science.

 

[Fogdog]

Ask racist child molester what recourse would he have if a upstream property owner dammed his water source making his land worthless

Yours is same kind of issue that I posed. But he's not going to answer anyway.

 

[ChesusRice]

I googled "EPA bribes" and found this:

https://sunlightfoundation.com/blog/2011/10/04/koch-industries-had-inside-man-at-the-epa/

Also, Monsanto. Also, energy companies that frack. In other words, people within the EPA can be bought for a whole lot of money by corporations with a whole lot more. Nothing new or "high browed" about this. So, what's your point?

The blowout that polluted the Animas river was not the result of bribery. It's pretty complicated but from what I could tell, the EPA was working with the county and the mine owner to prevent the river system from going into Super Fund Status. It was a case where the EPA overstepped its mandate and ended up costing the taxpayers a whopping big bill to clean up the spill because it was trying to minimize red tape and government oversight. They shouldn't have done it but I'm not sure they had the wrong reasons. And corruption wasn't involved.

The EPA wanted it to become a super fund site. Then they could of put a water treatment facility in place. The problem came when the sub contractor under estimated the pressure while drilling thru the side of a berm to stop a 176 gallon a minute leak. They failed.
The EPA admitted a mistake and is making reparations and repairs.
As to the Mines owner. Who is that? The mine hasn't been used since 1920

 

[bravedave]

I googled "EPA bribes" and found this:

https://sunlightfoundation.com/blog/2011/10/04/koch-industries-had-inside-man-at-the-epa/

Also, Monsanto. Also, energy companies that frack. In other words, people within the EPA can be bought for a whole lot of money by corporations with a whole lot more. Nothing new or "high browed" about this. So, what's your point?

The blowout that polluted the Animas river was not the result of bribery. It's pretty complicated but from what I could tell, the EPA was working with the county and the mine owner to prevent the river system from going into Super Fund Status. It was a case where the EPA overstepped its mandate and ended up costing the taxpayers a whopping big bill to clean up the spill because it was trying to minimize red tape and government oversight. They shouldn't have done it but I'm not sure they had the wrong reasons. And corruption wasn't involved.

Try:
EPA closes
EPA failure
EPA over reach
One interesting case I remember involves an oyster farm they closed. Their science was total bullshit and they didn't deny it but then I think invented something else or ignored the fact their science was debunked and still had some old family farm stripped from them.
So try:
EPA closes oyster farm.

 

[Fogdog]

Its not 1923. It is not even 1970. Media and Social media creates alot more pressure. The EPA needs some sort of oversight that comes from above them. As an unelected agency they should not be able to shut down businesses without due process outside of their own. Their policies have hurt farmers, fishermen, miners, consumers. Sure, sometimes with solid science but many times with speculative science.

Jeez, you and Roy need to go back to High School for a civics class. This is pretty ignorant. The EPA is authorized and funded under legislation by Congress. Congress has oversight of the EPA's budget and uses this power as a tool of oversight. The president is in charge of the executive branch of the government and has direct oversight. The courts have oversight when the EPA transgresses the laws of this land.

And you don't have any idea how much harm would have been done to those same farmers, etc if the EPA hadn't been around. Some people just like to complain, I guess.

 

[ChesusRice]

Try:
EPA closes
EPA failure
EPA over reach
One interesting case I remember involves an oyster farm they closed. Their science was total bullshit and they didn't deny it but then I think invented something else or ignored the fact their science was debunked and still had some old family farm stripped from them.
So try:
EPA closes oyster farm.

Links please.

 

[bravedave]

Jeez, you and Roy need to go back to High School for a civics class. This is pretty ignorant. The EPA is authorized and funded under legislation by Congress. Congress has oversight of the EPA's budget and uses this power as a tool of oversight. The president is in charge of the executive branch of the government and has direct oversight. The courts have oversight when the EPA transgresses the laws of this land.

And you don't have any idea how much harm would have been done to those same farmers, etc if the EPA hadn't been around. Some people just like to complain, I guess.

Jeez, show me something inconsistant with anything I already know and said...and what you just found on WIki while pretending you remember it from civics class.

 

[bravedave]

Links please.

If you really want to step out from your ignorance do your own work.

 

[Fogdog]

The EPA wanted it to become a super fund site. Then they could of put a water treatment facility in place. The problem came when the sub contractor under estimated the pressure while drilling thru the side of a berm to stop a 176 gallon a minute leak. They failed.
The EPA admitted a mistake and is making reparations and repairs.
As to the Mines owner. Who is that? The mine hasn't been used since 1920

Details can be found here: http://www.cpr.org/news/story/gold-king-mine-1887-claim-private-profits-and-social-costs

Some guy named Hennis bought the mine by paying back taxes for it with the idea of flipping it.

The CPR article doesn't say the EPA "wanted" the site to go superfund, it says the opposite:
The deteriorating water quality got the recent attention of the EPA. In 2008, the agency started investigating whether to name the area a Superfund site, just as they had almost 20 years before. Facing objections from Silverton residents, they agreed to pay for mine reclamation.

Gold King was the not main focus of the work at the time of the spill. The EPA wanted to plug the Red and Bonita mine. Worried that if it plugged that mine, the effect might be to increase toxic flows of other mines, it set about the business of trying to stabilize the Gold King. And that's when the Gold King blow out happened.

In any case, you are right in that the sub contractor under estimated the water pressure and things went from bad to worse pretty quickly.

 

[ChesusRice]

If you really want to step out from your ignorance do your own work.

The Oyster Farm was closed down by the national park service not the EPA
they had a 40 year lease and the lease wasn't renewed.
now you want to post a link ignorant one?
I just want to see your sources

 

[ChesusRice]

Details can be found here: http://www.cpr.org/news/story/gold-king-mine-1887-claim-private-profits-and-social-costs

Some guy named Hennis bought the mine by paying back taxes for it with the idea of flipping it.

The CPR article doesn't say the EPA "wanted" the site to go superfund, it says the opposite:
The deteriorating water quality got the recent attention of the EPA. In 2008, the agency started investigating whether to name the area a Superfund site, just as they had almost 20 years before. Facing objections from Silverton residents, they agreed to pay for mine reclamation.

Gold King was the not main focus of the work at the time of the spill. The EPA wanted to plug the Red and Bonita mine. Worried that if it plugged that mine, the effect might be to increase toxic flows of other mines, it set about the business of trying to stabilize the Gold King. And that's when the Gold King blow out happened.

In any case, you are right in that the sub contractor under estimated the water pressure and things went from bad to worse pretty quickly.

There are 2 other mines in the area that have billions of gallons of toxic water that are imminent in blowing out as well

 

[Fogdog]

Jeez, show me something inconsistant with anything I already know and said...and what you just found on WIki while pretending you remember it from civics class.

OK, Dave, in your own stupid words: "The EPA needs some sort of oversight that comes from above them. As anunelected agency they should not be able to shut down businesses without due process outside of their own."

This is why I said you needed a civics class. You are wrong, just wrong.

 

[Fogdog]

There are 2 other mines in the area that have billions of gallons of toxic water that are imminent in blowing out as well

Yep, and a lot more abandoned mines without any oversight at all. Its pretty fucked up.

 

[ChesusRice]

Yep, and a lot more abandoned mines without any oversight at all. Its pretty fucked up.

The Free Market will take care of it