Reverse Engineering everyone's nutrients

[MisterBlah]

I always thought potassium silicate is much more effective applied to the root zone than a foliar spray. I know Harley Smith did the studies on that one. At least he told me he did.

I'll be honest, I've read many varying views on this. There are two reasons I suggest foliar spray.

One is that is creates a basic solution on the surface of the leaves which itself can be beneficial at preventing molds/mildews from sticking around.
Two is because the solubility of silicate drops immensely with a lower pH. I think in this case, I might be off base in that it doesn't drop enough to matter with the low concentrations you actually use in hydroponics. So, there's that.

Ionic nutrients was formulated by Giles Gunstone and Dr. Carl Barry in Austrailia under thier company Growth Technology years ago. Getting all the minerals in the correct ratios (liquid) into one bottle was a problem for manufacturer's from way back. Mainly calcium and sulfer. It precipitates into gypsum and is not soluble (or hardly taken up into the roots). I dont know how they got around Guaranteed minimum analysis but Ionic has plenty of calcium and sulfer. But its proprietary and how they actually do it (HDI ..Lansing..GT sister company too) is a well guarded secret. Dr. Lynette Morgan for years (Suntec Austrailia ...Botanicare Arizona) has been trying to copy what they actually did. CNS 17 (Matrix Red and Blue) is the result and its not even close. Flora Nova one part from General Hydroponics....well lets just say there is a reason its such a heavy goopy mess. But it is effective.

So, you're definitely right that there are additional additives that some companies use. For example, Botanicare uses sugars to prevent calcium from precipitating. The example I chose there was an interesting one to me though, Ionic Bloom, again. So, the reason they don't have to label the product is due to labeling laws, not because it's not there. There's minimum concentrations you need to reach before you have to put it on the label. In the case of Ionic Bloom, the concentrations of Calcium and Sulfate they need to hit are both 1%. So, it's easy to come in under that and be great enough in concentration to precipitate. In addition, since the entire blend can meet it's NPK ratios without calcium nitrate or potassium sulfate, it's likely they are such low concentrations that they might not precipitate and also are not nearly enough to be effective, therefore, pointless.

 

[since1991]

I actually have the w/v % of the entire ionic mineral content on an e mail i got from the good folks at HDI. Let me dig it up and i can post it.

 

[mike4c4]

I'll be honest, I've read many varying views on this. There are two reasons I suggest foliar spray.

One is that is creates a basic solution on the surface of the leaves which itself can be beneficial at preventing molds/mildews from sticking around.
Two is because the solubility of silicate drops immensely with a lower pH. I think in this case, I might be off base in that it doesn't drop enough to matter with the low concentrations you actually use in hydroponics. So, there's that.



So, you're definitely right that there are additional additives that some companies use. For example, Botanicare uses sugars to prevent calcium from precipitating. The example I chose there was an interesting one to me though, Ionic Bloom, again. So, the reason they don't have to label the product is due to labeling laws, not because it's not there. There's minimum concentrations you need to reach before you have to put it on the label. In the case of Ionic Bloom, the concentrations of Calcium and Sulfate they need to hit are both 1%. So, it's easy to come in under that and be great enough in concentration to precipitate. In addition, since the entire blend can meet it's NPK ratios without calcium nitrate or potassium sulfate, it's likely they are such low concentrations that they might not precipitate and also are not nearly enough to be effective, therefore, pointless.

Whats your take on sea-90. I cant seem to get a clear mineral list on it. Can you help me with that. Everyones test seems to show different % ? Have you used it before in a mix?

 

[ttystikk]

When I spoke to the dry nutes manufacturer, he said to put the silica in first. Run the ph high, then reduce pH and add other nutrients. The stuff gets sludgy when pH falls, according to their experience.

That's a non starter in RDWC, so I just went with foliar application for its basic and wetting properties.

 

[MisterBlah]

Whats your take on sea-90. I cant seem to get a clear mineral list on it. Can you help me with that. Everyones test seems to show different % ? Have you used it before in a mix?

I've never used it.

http://www.seaagri.com/docs/competitive_analysis_smfa_creation_redmond_midwest_labs_nov2012.pdf

It's very very high in chlorides. So, it's not something I'll ever use.

 

[MisterBlah]

When I spoke to the dry nutes manufacturer, he said to put the silica in first. Run the ph high, then reduce pH and add other nutrients. The stuff gets sludgy when pH falls, according to their experience.

That's a non starter in RDWC, so I just went with foliar application for its basic and wetting properties.

Yeah, that's right. And is essentially why I don't use it in solution.

 

[mike4c4]

I've never used it.

http://www.seaagri.com/docs/competitive_analysis_smfa_creation_redmond_midwest_labs_nov2012.pdf

It's very very high in chlorides. So, it's not something I'll ever use.

Even that link has a different element analysis the one you posted and this one from the same co. http://lahavenaturalfarms.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/sea90.pdf They all say Partial and all seem totally different. I have found 5 different element analysis sheets for the some product.

 

[klx]

I usually find it easier to by a 12.5% solution. Mostly because a 12.5% solution is easy as shit to find. And it's pure.

All the bleach I can find also contains Sodium Hydroxide in addition to Sodium Hypochlorite. Will that cause any issues?

The pool shock in granular form seems to be pure sodium hypochlorite.

 

[MisterBlah]

Even that link has a different element analysis the one you posted and this one from the same co. http://lahavenaturalfarms.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/sea90.pdf They all say Partial and all seem totally different. I have found 5 different element analysis sheets for the some product.

If a fertilizer can't maintain a consistent blend, then don't use it.

 

[MisterBlah]

All the bleach I can find also contains Sodium Hydroxide in addition to Sodium Hypochlorite. Will that cause any issues?

The pool shock in granular form seems to be pure sodium hypochlorite.

http://www.rightpricechemicals.com/buy-sodium-hypochlorite-12-5-solution.html

There's a 12.5% solution.

The conjugate acid/base pair for sodium hypochlorite is Sodium hydroxide and hypochlorous acid.

 

[klx]

http://www.rightpricechemicals.com/buy-sodium-hypochlorite-12-5-solution.html

There's a 12.5% solution.

The conjugate acid/base pair for sodium hypochlorite is Sodium hydroxide and hypochlorous acid.

Im in Australia but cheers I found some...

 

[MisterBlah]

I actually have the w/v % of the entire ionic mineral content on an e mail i got from the good folks at HDI. Let me dig it up and i can post it.

That would be awesome.

 

[smokealotabuds]

Hey everyone I am sorta new at growing trees my strains are top 44 x with bubblegum (doing the best) berry bomb (having trouble) plus church (that's been in transplant shock) although I read a lot of forums and do my research daily I was disappointed today when I woke up to see that my Berry bomb's leaves were curling up at the tips and the inner parts are starting to turn white... is this some kind of nutrient deficiency or maybe just to close to the lights? I have two desk top fluorescent lamps that are 27w and I have a grow light that produces blue and UV rays. Im about a week and a half past sprout was thinking of adding some of this all purpose slow release 10-10-10 nutes made by scotts is that an okay brand or is miracle grow the best way to go about it and when should I give ferts if any? I have also been diluting some urine with water about 1-10 ratio and spraying the soil around them with it I know my 6" pots are too big but it shouldn't be a problem as long I I keep the top soil wet right. I instantly regretted transplanting them but I didn't want the powder mold on them stupid carboard pots to get on my plants so I had no choice I also have a young church seedling that has barely spawned its first nodes but when I transplanted I think some of the tap root may have ripped was wanting to know if it would ever recover or if its just a waste of time.. sorry I know this is getting kind of long just wanted to get into detail. thanks or all the help I will post pics if needed

 

[MisterBlah]

Hey everyone I am sorta new at growing trees my strains are top 44 x with bubblegum (doing the best) berry bomb (having trouble) plus church (that's been in transplant shock) although I read a lot of forums and do my research daily I was disappointed today when I woke up to see that my Berry bomb's leaves were curling up at the tips and the inner parts are starting to turn white... is this some kind of nutrient deficiency or maybe just to close to the lights? I have two desk top fluorescent lamps that are 27w and I have a grow light that produces blue and UV rays. Im about a week and a half past sprout was thinking of adding some of this all purpose slow release 10-10-10 nutes made by scotts is that an okay brand or is miracle grow the best way to go about it and when should I give ferts if any? I have also been diluting some urine with water about 1-10 ratio and spraying the soil around them with it I know my 6" pots are too big but it shouldn't be a problem as long I I keep the top soil wet right. I instantly regretted transplanting them but I didn't want the powder mold on them stupid carboard pots to get on my plants so I had no choice I also have a young church seedling that has barely spawned its first nodes but when I transplanted I think some of the tap root may have ripped was wanting to know if it would ever recover or if its just a waste of time.. sorry I know this is getting kind of long just wanted to get into detail. thanks or all the help I will post pics if needed

Sounds like you should start your own thread. Because that is 100% irrelevant to this one.

 

[since1991]

Ive noticed this. A good thread with more of the experienced growers having a discussion and the noobs pop in with plant problems totally unrelated to the topic at hand. Happens alot. Noobs follow the veteran growers around like a magnent on this forum. No disrespect but you need to post up in plant problems. I dont mean to jump anyones shit but its the same damn questions over and over. And there is more than enough posts in rollitup to help you in getting an idea of what your doing wrong. I suggest doing alot of reading. Iam done handing out answers to rookies that dont research as well as theh should. No one handed me shit. There wasnt even an internet. You noobs got it so much easier these days. At least put in your part. Your grows will thank you for it.

 

[Alienwidow]

Sounds like you should start your own thread. Because that is 100% irrelevant to this one.

Ok misterblah, i have a super easy one for you. I pay 40 bucks a gallon for calmag and ive been getting shit for it. What do i need to save that jug and make my own calmag to fill it back up so it makes the same ppms? It sounds hard to me but ill just be honest, id never be able to do it myself. You could save me and everyone i ever talk to 38 bucks a gallon.

 

[Alienwidow]

Oh and the more simple the answer the better, im no scientist.

 

[churchhaze]

It says what's in it right on the bottle. Calcium nitrate, magnesium nitrate, and an iron chelate (just get Iron DTPA)

Magnesium nitrate is more expensive than magnesium sulfate, but is needed in order to mix in a stock solution with calcium nitrate. It's cheaper not to replicate cal-mag+.

Bottom line is that making A+B stock solutions is easier than making an extra, overlapping, stock solution that doesn't have a purpose. (the 3 ingredients in calmag+ should be part of A or B, not a third, overlapping stock solution, "cal-mag+")

Calcium nitrate and iron DTPA are already in part A. Magnesium sulfate is already in part B. Why do you want overlapping part C rather than just fixing part A and part B (assuming it's broken in the first place). Calcium can be increased by adding calcium nitrate to part A, etc.

 

[Alienwidow]

It says what's in it right on the bottle. Calcium nitrate, magnesium nitrate, and an iron chelate (just get Iron DTPA)

Magnesium nitrate is more expensive than magnesium sulfate, but is needed in order to mix in a stock solution with calcium nitrate. It's cheaper not to replicate cal-mag+.

Bottom line is that making A+B stock solutions is easier than making an extra, overlapping, stock solution that doesn't have a purpose. (the 3 ingredients in calmag+ should be part of A or B, not a third, overlapping stock solution, "cal-mag+")

Calcium nitrate and iron DTPA are already in part A. Magnesium sulfate is already in part B. Why do you want overlapping part C rather than just fixing part A and part B (assuming it's broken in the first place). Calcium can be increased by adding calcium nitrate to part A, etc.

Well adding the two ingredients sounds easy enough. Any idea on the amounts to mix with a gallon of water?

 

[MisterBlah]

Ok misterblah, i have a super easy one for you. I pay 40 bucks a gallon for calmag and ive been getting shit for it. What do i need to save that jug and make my own calmag to fill it back up so it makes the same ppms? It sounds hard to me but ill just be honest, id never be able to do it myself. You could save me and everyone i ever talk to 38 bucks a gallon.

You need 1 gallon of distilled water. You can find it at your grocery store for $1. You will need to empty out some if it to make room for the the fertilizers.

Then add the following:
650g of Calcium Nitrate
450g of Magnesium Nitrate

When it comes to adding the iron, you need to know the % of the chelate.
If you add a 13% EDTA chelate, add 25g
If you add a 11% DTPA chelate, add 30g

If buying in small quantities, that will probably cost you $20-25 when shipping is included. Buying in larger quantities, it will cost $3-6 maybe.