This is gonna get interesting! Militia takes over Ore. federal building after protest.

NLXSK1

Well-Known Member
If there is clear evidence of a toaster theft, I think the owner of the toaster has the right to recover it. The toaster thief is liable for the level of harm he created to the person(s) he harmed. It comes to down to who initiated the harm...who broke the peaceful neutrality first.


How the toaster gets recovered could happen in a number of ways. This reminds me of a story many years ago. Some neighborhood kids and I built a kids fort in the woods and an adult came and took a piece of plywood from it to use for something or other around his house.

Being kids, most of the gang figured "the authority" , the adult, had spoken and our plywood roof was gone forever. The rest of the story includes me, knocking on the adults door, getting him to confess to the theft. and me recovering the property and then lumping the plywood back to our fort.


I was asking you what you would do in your toaster scenario, because I'm curious.
But what if the person who owns the toaster is unable to recover it by themselves? What if Bob is lying bleeding on Stan's lawn.

You did not even give me one way the toaster is returned in this scenario. Stan is not going to just give it back. He claims Bob stole it first. What are you going to do?

The problem is since nobody has any rights above and beyond their own property that nobody has any right to intervene in the issue between Bob & Stan. Nobody has a right to go on Stan's property because that is trespassing and committing further crimes does not resolve an original crime.

You have pointed out that a body of people cannot grant a right that a single person does not have. Therefore, Bob is going to bleed to death on Stan's lawn because nobody has the right to violate Stan's rights.

Once Bob is dead, Stan is going to claim his land as his own since there is no owner and he has no problem appropriating things.

Do you have a lock for your toaster?
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
But what if the person who owns the toaster is unable to recover it by themselves? What if Bob is lying bleeding on Stan's lawn.

You did not even give me one way the toaster is returned in this scenario. Stan is not going to just give it back. He claims Bob stole it first. What are you going to do?

The problem is since nobody has any rights above and beyond their own property that nobody has any right to intervene in the issue between Bob & Stan. Nobody has a right to go on Stan's property because that is trespassing and committing further crimes does not resolve an original crime.

You have pointed out that a body of people cannot grant a right that a single person does not have. Therefore, Bob is going to bleed to death on Stan's lawn because nobody has the right to violate Stan's rights.

Once Bob is dead, Stan is going to claim his land as his own since there is no owner and he has no problem appropriating things.

Do you have a lock for your toaster?

Yes, but people CAN delegate a right they DO have. If a person steals my toaster (oh the horrors) we agree that I have a right to recover it. If I need assistance in the recovery of it, I wouldn't be delegating a right I don't have, I would be delegating a right I DO have to the party assisting the recovery of the stolen item.
 
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Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
You're insane if you think he was trying to avoid a confrontation. He actively sought one, in every sense of his actions. And lol Robert Higgs. Ugh.

Since you don't like the Robert Higgs quote perhaps you could offer your thoughts on why it is not accurate? Can you?


It seems self evident that Finnicum was not trying to be the one to initiate violence. He was actively driving AWAY from people that were part of a gang that later killed him wasn't he?
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Its starting to heat up around the occupation in Burns.

Here we go. The sheriff described the situation a week ago as four armed groups in Burns/Harney County. That being, the occupiers, law enforcement, local residents and militants that came to Burns but are not part of the occupation. Now, we have a stiff division forming in Burns both for and against Bundys' demands. Perhaps the four remaining occupiers will be removed from the sanctuary soon? I think this because the situation outside the sanctuary is spinning out of control.

Judge Grasty: Cliven Bundy ‘thinks he owns refuge’
4 people remain at Malheur Wildlife Refuge, encouraged by Cliven Bundy

http://koin.com/2016/02/02/judge-grasty-cliven-bundy-thinks-he-owns-refuge/

Oregon standoff leader strikes defiant tone from behind bars
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ammon-bundy-oregon-standoff-leader-strikes-defiant-tone-from-behind-bars/
Bundy said the FBI and Oregon State Police surrounding Malheur National Wildlife Refuge are leading an "armed occupation," words typically reserved for the ranchers and others that launched the standoff on Jan. 2. He said the refuge "belongs to the people," according to a statement read by his attorney.

Oregon town tense amid dueling protests after wildlife refuge takeover
http://www.aol.com/article/2016/02/02/oregon-town-tense-amid-dueling-protests-after-wildlife-refuge-ta/21306453/
Burns, Oregon, Feb 1 (Reuters) - Tension flared in the deeply divided town of Burns, Oregon, on Monday as 500 demonstrators on both sides of an armed occupation of a federal wildlife refuge squared off, brandishing signs and yelling at each other days after one of the occupiers was shot dead by state police.

Shortly before noon, the mostly residential streets around the courthouse in this community of less than 3,000 had swelled with protesters - about 300 opposed to the occupiers and 200, some of them from out of town, in favor. Some of the demonstrators had sidearms.

Those opposed to the militia shouted, "Go home!" Supporters, some carrying signs with a photograph of LaVoy Finicum, an occupier who was shot by police last week, shouted back, "We are home."

The tense demonstrations continued for nearly four hours.


 
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Rrog

Well-Known Member
If these were blacks demanding to take over federal parks, would some see that as a reasonable request?

These white guys are demanding to take over federal land. Why is that seen by some as reasonable?
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
If these were blacks demanding to take over federal parks, would some see that as a reasonable request?

These white guys are demanding to take over federal land. Why is that seen by some as reasonable?

What can't the Federal Government declare ownership or control over is the question you might ponder.

They already purport to control your body and you obviously think they should own most of the western land thousands of miles from their gang club house in Washington D.C.
 
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Fogdog

Well-Known Member
If these were blacks demanding to take over federal parks, would some see that as a reasonable request?

These white guys are demanding to take over federal land. Why is that seen by some as reasonable?
Any protesters other than European Americans that took over federal buildings in an armed occupation would already be cold and in the ground. Being part of a 67% majority in this population gave those ranchers a license to threaten and menace that no other group could possibly have.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Any protesters other than European Americans that took over federal buildings in an armed occupation would already be cold and in the ground. Being part of a 67% majority in this population gave those ranchers a license to threaten and menace that no other group could possibly have.
Then why isn't Eric Holder dead? He took part in an armed take over years ago when he was a "radical college student".


You do bring up a good point though, the Federal Government and the douches that have run it have a long racist history.
 

NLXSK1

Well-Known Member
Yes, but people CAN delegate a right they DO have. If a person steals my toaster (oh the horrors) we agree that I have a right to recover it. If I need assistance in the recovery of it, I wouldn't be delegating a right I don't have, I would be delegating a right I DO have to the party assisting the recovery of the stolen item.
Who agrees you have a right to recover it? Isnt that elevating your rights above another? Suddenly you have the right to trespass? You have the right to conduct aggressive action against another person? On what basis do you have these rights? Can you prove unequivocally the toaster Stan has is yours? Suddenly you and now other people have the right to act aggressively against Stan due to your sole claim he stole your toaster.

Who arbitrates the truth in these situations? If the truth cannot be arbitrated then how can you claim rights you dont have?

In the previous example I said that Bob said Stan stole his toaster first. So, now Bob has a right to be agressive against Stan based on only his testimony?

You spent a month expressing that no group of people can have a right that a single person does not possess.

You do not have the right to trespass against another person's property but suddenly in this scenario you and a buddy are ganging up on another person, trespassing and confiscating property. Where did you get all that authority?
 

pnwmystery

Well-Known Member
What can't the Federal Government declare ownership or control over is the question you might ponder.

They already purport to control your body and you obviously think they should own most of the western land thousands of miles from their gang head club house in Washington D.C.
Read the Constitution and pay particular attention to Article 4, Section 3, Clause 2 and you shall find out how the Federal Government declares ownership and control over land.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Who agrees you have a right to recover it? Isnt that elevating your rights above another? Suddenly you have the right to trespass? You have the right to conduct aggressive action against another person? On what basis do you have these rights? Can you prove unequivocally the toaster Stan has is yours? Suddenly you and now other people have the right to act aggressively against Stan due to your sole claim he stole your toaster.

Who arbitrates the truth in these situations? If the truth cannot be arbitrated then how can you claim rights you dont have?

In the previous example I said that Bob said Stan stole his toaster first. So, now Bob has a right to be agressive against Stan based on only his testimony?

You spent a month expressing that no group of people can have a right that a single person does not possess.

You do not have the right to trespass against another person's property but suddenly in this scenario you and a buddy are ganging up on another person, trespassing and confiscating property. Where did you get all that authority?

I have a video of Stan taking the toaster. It is irrefutable that Stan is the toaster burglar. There is a micro chip in it, 3 credible witnesses saw him take it and he is a known toast glutton and leaves a trail of toast crumbs everywhere behind him.

I said we can't delegate rights we don't possess, which means Stan can't rightfully tell you, that you can have my toaster or steal it for himself or destroy it without my permission.

I DO have a right to recover my toaster
, therefore if I enlist a person to help me, I am not delegating a right I do not possess, since I OWN the toaster, but am no longer in possession of it.

When Stan took the toaster he acted offensively, thus my actions to recover the toaster is a defensive act and morally permissible.

Where do any rights come from? Do they come from other people? I don't think so.


All this talk of toasters is making me sad I'm all out of raisin bread.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Read the Constitution and pay particular attention to Article 4, Section 3, Clause 2 and you shall find out how the Federal Government declares ownership and control over land.
I've read the entire thing a few times. Can you show me the part where unborn individual people agreed to be bound to it hundreds of years later?


Also you might like to read Lysander Spooners essay on the Constitution, but I doubt you will.
 
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Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Read the Constitution and pay particular attention to Article 4, Section 3, Clause 2 and you shall find out how the Federal Government declares ownership and control over land.
Too funny this. Right wingers want to pick and choose which rulings, sentences in the constitution and which laws to follow. In the case of federal ownership of the public lands in the west, the Supreme Court ruled in the favor of the US govt. on this matter in 1911. The ruling has survived challenges both legal and illegal since then.

If these guys really want to change the laws of the land, they must change the laws of the land. I know, duh. Strapping a side arm to a belt under a tubby belly and making a declaration in the middle of the south eastern Oregon desert isn't going to change anything. No matter how many local people are menaced, it won't work.
 
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pnwmystery

Well-Known Member
I've read the entire thing a few times. Can you how me the part where unborn individual people agreed to be bound to it hundreds of years later?
I'm || close to putting you on ignore because that was the most boneheaded statement I've ever read that you've typed out. You don't think the US Constitution applies to you? Or does it only apply to you when you're in trouble from the law? Are you actually one of those "Natural Rights/Sovereign Man" nutjobs? Lol. FFS.

If you hate the US Constitution so much move to Somalia where there are no laws. Problem solved! :D

Seriously though, I'm not sure why there hasn't been a Libertarian movement to colonize Somalia lol.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Supreme Court already ruled that feds rightly own occupied refuge
By Betsy Hammond | The Oregonian/OregonLive


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The occupiers have been making up their own history and a lot of people are just swallowing whole without questioning. How about some real history of this place? The real history is nothing like the garbage spewed by Bundy and company.

Broken into three parts. sorry about this if you aren't interested and just want to speak your mind. Author is Betsy Hammond; I don't know if she is a relative of the Hammond family that are entwined in this whole mess.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/supreme_court_already_ruled_th.html


Occupiers of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge question whether the federal government has unequivocal legal rights to own and manage that land, without regard to the wishes of local property owners and ranchers.

Improbably, the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled on exactly that question, specifically regarding the lands of the original Malheur national refuge -- twice.

Those rulings by the nation's highest court, in 1902 and in 1935, found that the federal government has an incontrovertible claim to the refuge's wetlands and lakebeds, dating back to the 1840s, when Oregon was still a territory.

"Before Oregon was admitted to statehood, the United States is shown to have acquired title which it has never in terms conveyed away," Justice Harlan Stone wrote in 1935.

The decisions underscore the area's long record of controversy over land rights -- and show that the current occupiers' claims are not backed by historical fact.

This month's occupation of the bird sanctuary's headquarters by armed militants seems shocking and new, drawing a swarm of reporters and satellite trucks to remote Harney County and making national news.

But bitter, sometimes violent battles over the use of natural resources along the shores of Malheur Lake and the county's arid rangelands date to at least the 1890s.

And, says Nancy Langston, author of a book that chronicled the history of water use and land rights in the Harney Basin, when it came time to decide who would win the land -- large nearby cattle operations or the bird sanctuary -- the modest settlers and property owners of Harney County sided with the federal government and the refuge.

For 50 years, Dwight Hammond Jr. and his wife, Susie, have owned a 6,000-acre ranch adjoining the refuge. The jailing of Hammond and his son, Steven, for arson prompted the militants' occupation.

A 1920s-era state-brokered compromise with large landowners and land speculators to create an "irrigation enterprise" was billed as a more modern choice than a bird refuge and one that would benefit the small landholders of the county, Langston said. But the general populace of Harney County didn't buy it, she said, so it fell apart.

"Smaller local settlers... went with the conservationists and said, 'You are going to stand up more for us,' " Langston told The Oregonian/OregonLive Tuesday.

Had they and the backers of a strictly managed federal refuge not prevailed, the lake would have been drained all but dry and many more birds would have died, she said.

(continued below)
 
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Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
I'm || close to putting you on ignore because that was the most boneheaded statement I've ever read that you've typed out. You don't think the US Constitution applies to you? Or does it only apply to you when you're in trouble from the law? Are you actually one of those "Natural Rights/Sovereign Man" nutjobs? Lol. FFS.

Rights of one man do not come from another man....if they did they would be in reality granted privileges.

Maybe you should take a breather from engaging me, the gang of other shitty debaters will save you a seat at their losers table. I thought you were different. Boo hoo. Lol.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Continued from http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2016/01/supreme_court_already_ruled_th.html

The Peter French era

Paiute Indians have lived in the Malheur Lake area for more than 6,000 years. Trappers who traveled through the area in the 1820s reported an "incredible" number of Native Americans living in grass huts along its shores, according to information and documents on the refuge's website.

White settlers didn't begin claiming land in that part of Harney County until the 1870s, a decade after the Homestead Act allowed anyone to claim 160 acres of the vast American West to farm.

Peter French, with the backing of a wealthy California cattle barron, was foremost among those who settled the Harney Basin. Starting from the first 160 acres he claimed, he built a cattle empire of more than 140,000 acres, south of Malheur Lake and centered on the Blitzen River, the lake's primary source of water.

He and his company, French-Glenn Livestock Co., grazed their cattle on federal rangelands. They also drained and diverted water from the Blitzen to irrigate cropland and grow their own feed for cows.

That diversion helped dramatically lower water levels in Malheur Lake, creating broad stretches of dry land where the lake's shallow edges had once been.

Squatters claimed that land, first to graze a few cows, then to grow alfalfa and grain and even build small homes, Langston said. But French and his company said that lake basin land belonged to them.

Their battles were both personal and legal. "Anger fermented into a toxic brew of hatred and violence," Langston wrote in her 2003 book, "Where Land & Water Meet."

The squatters first targeted French with arson, burning bales of hay meant to feed his cattle. They tore down some of his fences. Then, late in 1897, one of the settlers shot French dead.

Public opinion against his exploiting water and land resources remained strong, however. According to Langston, a jury of local squatters and shopkeepers from the nearby city of Burns acquitted the gunman of murder, saying his decision to shoot the unarmed French in the back was in self-defense.

It wasn't French's only loss. Before his death, he had sued several of the squatters. His case against one widow reached the Supreme Court in 1902.

The court ruled that French's claims to the now-dry lakebed were invalid. The federal government never gave him claim to the land that had been below the waterline, it found.

That decision paved the way for President Theodore Roosevelt in 1908 to lay claim to the 82,000 acres, including the land claimed by both French and the widow he took to court, of federally owned property and deem it a national wildlife refuge.

Ammon Bundy, a leader of the militant takeover of the refuge headquarters, this week called that declaration "an unconstitutional act" and said the land should be "given back" to private landowners.

In fact, the nation's highest court ruled seven years before Roosevelt's declaration, and again 27 years after it, that the federal government had never sold or transferred any of the 82,000 acres to French or anyone else. It was, and remains, federal land.

continued below
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
I'm || close to putting you on ignore because that was the most boneheaded statement I've ever read that you've typed out. You don't think the US Constitution applies to you? Or does it only apply to you when you're in trouble from the law? Are you actually one of those "Natural Rights/Sovereign Man" nutjobs? Lol. FFS.

If you hate the US Constitution so much move to Somalia where there are no laws. Problem solved! :D

Seriously though, I'm not sure why there hasn't been a Libertarian movement to colonize Somalia lol.

I'm not a big L, Libertarian, so you're barking up the wrong tree.

If you love the constitution so much do you love slavery and prohibition too?
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Continued from http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2016/01/supreme_court_already_ruled_th.html
Public opinion and willing sales

The high court's decision didn't stop arguments over how to best use the land and water of Harney County, however.

The federal government didn't immediately kick the squatters off its land. And the French-Glenn Co. kept operating, at first under ownership of two Portland investors. They built channels in 17 miles of the Blitzen River and diverted water for irrigation, according to information on the refuge's website.

In 1916, 46 percent ownership in the huge ranching operation was sold to Louis Swift of the Swift Meat Packing Co. out of Chicago, who would come to own all of French-Glenn in 1928.

Evolving views of how to manage water rights and irrigation needs in the West complicated decisions about how best to use public lands, including those of Harney County, Langston said.

State leaders, prompted by Swift and a land speculation group he created, leaned on Oregon lawmakers and the state land board to allow developers to drain Malheur Lake and its tributaries, she said. They planned to create a massive irrigation system that they said could turn Harney County into an agrarian paradise, she said.

But pro-conservation forces pushed for the federal government to assert its ownership and strongly regulate land and water use in the area.

Fred Otley, a rancher whose many descendants still work the land of Harney County, said favoring the irrigation plan over a nature preserve was "not for the benefit of the Oregon public" and would benefit only "the dry lands of a millionaire land and cattle corporation," Langston writes in her book.

Growing support from Harney County's small landholders and squatters along with pressure from the Audubon Society, which had considerable support in Portland and Salem, helped scuttle the state irrigation enterprise.

So did the Depression and profound Dust Bowl-era drought that hit the area in the early 1930s. The weather pattern delivered too little water and too little forage and hay to raise many cattle; the economy meant too few people could afford to buy much beef.

Amid the prolonged controversy and uncertainty, the federal government sued Oregon in an effort to end both.

The lawsuit, argued before the Supreme Court in March 1935, sought a clear declaration that the federal government had unfettered ownership of all 82,000 acres.

The decision turned on whether the waters of the Malheur refuge were "navigable" at the time Oregon became a state. That's because, under the acts of Congress that admitted new states to the union, ownership of navigable waterways was automatically conveyed to the state.

Hundreds of people testified and reams of water and land measurement records were examined before the court concluded that, no, boats had never routinely plied the waters of the refuge for commerce, or any other purpose.

The upshot of the court's decision was crystal clear: The federal government owned, without restrictions of any form, the entire acreage.

By 1935, Swift willingly sold its 65,000 acres adjoining the refuge and its water rights to the Blitzen to the federal government so it could expand and acquire water for the refuge.

Seven years later, prompted by the same economic and climatological forces, a widow of a U.S. senator sold her family's once-powerful Double-O ranch to the federal government, bringing the refuge to 161,000 acres, just 27,000 shy of its full size today.

-- Betsy Hammond
 

NLXSK1

Well-Known Member
I have a video of Stan taking the toaster. It is irrefutable that Stan is the toaster burglar. There is a micro chip in it, 3 credible witnesses saw him take it and he is a known toast glutton and leaves a trail of toast crumbs everywhere behind him.

I said we can't delegate rights we don't possess, which means Stan can't rightfully tell you, that you can have my toaster or steal it for himself or destroy it without my permission.

I DO have a right to recover my toaster
, therefore if I enlist a person to help me, I am not delegating a right I do not possess, since I OWN the toaster, but am no longer in possession of it.

When Stan took the toaster he acted offensively, thus my actions to recover the toaster is a defensive act and morally permissible.

Where do any rights come from? Do they come from other people? I don't think so.


All this talk of toasters is making me sad I'm all out of raisin bread.
You just described nations going to war. One party takes the 'posessions' of another party so they enlist a group of people to right the wrong of the posessions taken from them. You have justified that it is now morally permissible to do this based on the first injustice. You are now the leader of a group that has rules and is proceeding to go onto someone elses land. You have formed a government by default.

Welcome to the real world!! :]

Seriously, I want to buy what you are selling but I cant see the security.
 
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