Keep em green?

[MichiganMedGrower]

Hey that's no way to talk about your wife (I'm praying you have a good sense of humor right now ;p)


You grew that under a single 315?

Careful Mrs. Med Grower may surface around here. Good thing she is a sweetheart sometimes.

And the room has 2 600 Hortilux HPS and Phillips 315 LEC 3100k with the plants rotated around to share all the spectrums through flowering.

But I can actually fit 2 of her angled under the 315 footprint. I feel it is good for about 2.7'x2.7' under the sun systems remote reflector I have.

She is a CH9 Citral x POW33 from seed and trained to about 2'x2'. Well she doesn't quite fit the standard mold for my room but I look at it like a jigsaw puzzle when I put them back under the lights.

We were saying she was like a rain forest taking over the room. But now I have an OG x Trainwreck cross that may be even crazier. She is stretching all over. And has massive fan leaves to power her conquering of the room over the Citral pow clone.



Think I should go back to boring short flowering pole plants? They are like nice little gnomes. Nice and safe.

 

[Flowki]

Careful Mrs. Med Grower may surface around here. Good thing she is a sweetheart sometimes.

And the room has 2 600 Hortilux HPS and Phillips 315 LEC 3100k with the plants rotated around to share all the spectrums through flowering.

But I can actually fit 2 of her angled under the 315 footprint. I feel it is good for about 2.7'x2.7' under the sun systems remote reflector I have.

She is a CH9 Citral x POW33 from seed and trained to about 2'x2'. Well she doesn't quite fit the standard mold for my room but I look at it like a jigsaw puzzle when I put them back under the lights.

We were saying she was like a rain forest taking over the room. But now I have an OG x Trainwreck cross that may be even crazier. She is stretching all over. And has massive fan leaves to power her conquering of the room over the Citral pow clone.

View attachment 3879332

Think I should go back to boring short flowering pole plants? They are like nice little gnomes. Nice and safe.

Oh that sounds like a nice setup, do you rotate them depending on the time of flower (assuming they are at diff stages) or just every few days?.

Safe is like carbon monoxide, the silant killer ^^.

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

Oh that sounds like a nice setup, do you rotate them depending on the time of flower (assuming they are at diff stages) or just every few days?.

Safe is like carbon monoxide, the silant killer ^^.

The 315 is new and I am still experimenting. I tried it as a finishing lamp but noticed the best buds and happy leaves seem to be in the overlap so I rotate them all as they need water/ nutes. They are getting somewhat equal time in all the spots under all the lamps and overlaps.

I am getting increases in yield, potency and flavor and aroma.

But I have added more light so I can't just attribute it all to the ceramic metal halide. I have been making steady gains before with the original equipment. And I have not changed anything else all year.

I will likely set up next time with the 315 in the middle of the 2 air cooled 600's in a 4'x8' footprint. My HPS are covering3.5'x3.5' now. And about 2.5'x 2.5 in an "L" under the 315.

HPS side (the temp sensor is hanging from the first reflector)



And the overlap and 315 LEC side



Nothing too fancy. Just my spare bedroom.

 

[GroErr]

Yeah I was just wondering if theirs a cut off point toward the end where the leaves are worth more by giving up stored energy, seems not and that's fine.

Nice plants.

Thanks, my rule of thumb is if the leaf dies off, it comes off, otherwise they stay. Many phenos put their best weight on at the end when the buds tighten up so I like to keep them as healthy as I can until the end.

 

[Flowki]

The 315 is new and I am still experimenting. I tried it as a finishing lamp but noticed the best buds and happy leaves seem to be in the overlap so I rotate them all as they need water/ nutes. They are getting somewhat equal time in all the spots under all the lamps and overlaps.

I am getting increases in yield, potency and flavor and aroma.

But I have added more light so I can't just attribute it all to the ceramic metal halide. I have been making steady gains before with the original equipment. And I have not changed anything else all year.

I will likely set up next time with the 315 in the middle of the 2 air cooled 600's in a 4'x8' footprint. My HPS are covering3.5'x3.5' now. And about 2.5'x 2.5 in an "L" under the 315.

HPS side (the temp sensor is hanging from the first reflector)

View attachment 3879363

And the overlap and 315 LEC side

View attachment 3879364

Nothing too fancy. Just my spare bedroom.

Look like you do very well. Whats the secret to huge fan leaves? o0.

 

[Flowki]

Thanks, my rule of thumb is if the leaf dies off, it comes off, otherwise they stay. Many phenos put their best weight on at the end when the buds tighten up so I like to keep them as healthy as I can until the end.

If you have a pheno is it obvious from veg or does it only really show once it stacks?.

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

Look like you do very well. Whats the secret to huge fan leaves? o0.

Thanks.

No secret. Good seedling and veg stage with proper watering and transplanting for the best root ball I can get. And they veg to maturity before flowering.

Not overwatering and watering and feeding only and exactly what they need is key.

 

[GroErr]

If you have a pheno is it obvious from veg or does it only really show once it stacks?.

No, you have to generally flower it out to tell from seed. You can get a lot of variation, I find a lot of strains/crosses have a dense and fluffy pheno but you can't really tell until they finish. Some tighten up early, some later. I like the hunts, if you run enough seeds, once in a while you hit the jackpot. I run a lot of my own crosses so I can afford to hunt for the best phenos for free

 

[bryan oconner]

some of us are growing trees on here . well i mean some of us make a plant into a tree ! always keep it green if you look at your plant and see it yellowing or going brown or spots there is a problem . but in late flower the plant will start changing depending on the strand . seen some total dark like in veg . and some turn purple red but not starving for nutrients big difference. the season temps change the plants will change if you can change temps light cycles according you will see this . there are a lot of different growing styles lot of people stop feeding nitrogen in flower and pound the fuck out of the p then the plants look like shit for me that is a major mistake . people think ow i pushing this p to 5000000 ppm i will pull more. but the person that actually knows what they are doing keeping a good looking healthy plant though out the life cycle there fruit will look so much better .

 

[Flowki]

Thanks.

No secret. Good seedling and veg stage with proper watering and transplanting for the best root ball I can get. And they veg to maturity before flowering.

Not overwatering and watering and feeding only and exactly what they need is key.

So would you say big fan leaves is a sign you are completely dialed in or do genetics mainly play a role in it?. Ofc I know that indica/sativa is a huge difference, I mean if you compare one single strain in various ''healthy enough'' environments would the leaf size drastically vary. Would you credit at all the cmh spectrum for leaf size?. What would be the main neut imbalance to stun leaves, I recall something about high in veg could do it, K is that true?. Sorry for the bombardment ;p.

 

[Flowki]

No, you have to generally flower it out to tell from seed. You can get a lot of variation, I find a lot of strains/crosses have a dense and fluffy pheno but you can't really tell until they finish. Some tighten up early, some later. I like the hunts, if you run enough seeds, once in a while you hit the jackpot. I run a lot of my own crosses so I can afford to hunt for the best phenos for free

Is it silly to think that the more reliable or recommended the seed bank the less chance of a obvious pheno as they all tend to look good?. Or is it a case of you will know for sure when you see one, depending on what it is you are looking for.

 

[GroErr]

Is it silly to think that the more reliable or recommended the seed bank the less chance of a obvious pheno as they all tend to look good?. Or is it a case of you will know for sure when you see one, depending on what it is you are looking for.

It's a bit of hit & miss because there's so much out there these days. Best option for less hunting is recommendations from growers that have grown the strain out. I've had two fem strains, Blue Dream by HSO and Blue Pyramid by Pyramid Seeds that showed consistent phenos but even with those there was variation in density and production. When it comes to regs it's all over the place and the big name seed banks/breeders aren't necessarily any better ime. You'll have a better chance with strains that have been worked like IBL or F10+ lines.

 

[Dr. Who]

So would you say big fan leaves is a sign you are completely dialed in or do genetics mainly play a role in it?. Ofc I know that indica/sativa is a huge difference, I mean if you compare one single strain in various ''healthy enough'' environments would the leaf size drastically vary. Would you credit at all the cmh spectrum for leaf size?. What would be the main neut imbalance to stun leaves, I recall something about high in veg could do it, K is that true?. Sorry for the bombardment ;p.

No - on the leaves.....Dialed in is something you reach by having the plant get as close to it's "potential" while staying green and healthy all grow long..... so the "genetic Potential" is correct. So yes, more genetic - You have to find that "potential".

For a while maybe. Landrace or "pure" strains will not change. BUT, environmental change or "shift" by mixed Ind/Sat plants does happen! The new strain from a crossing is grown in a particular environment. You get seeds from that breeding. Your environment is different. Your first seed run is just like the pictures of the plant that the breeder grew.

You begin to clone that plant....Over time the plant now "shifts" it's growing pattern, right down to leaf shape, to fit the genetic of the plant, to the environment it's growing in. Example: I grow a more sativa oriented environment. In about the 4th clone from a clone. I see the leaf of most cross's "shift" to a more Sativa shaped leaf and plant growth pattern! The "buzz" stay's the same! Just the shape of the plant and leaf pattern "shift" to the environment that the plant crossing supports the most.. I have not changed environ's to see if that will reverse back again. BUT, like I said. A "pure" Indica or Sativa, will not shift....

If you simply run beans and don't clone from clones - You will not a see a shift either...so yes. you can get a drastic change!

Maybe some but, not as important as intensity!

Main nutrient to "stunt" leaves? K in excess can but, so can S Def., Boron Def., and high pH (twisty, stunted)

Easy pheno hunting is more Sat or more Ind like in growth. - More like the mom or the dad!

Others are not easy to see, other then bigger buds or more trich's/differing smells......Not to mention the holy grail of potency!

 

[Dr. Who]

It's a bit of hit & miss because there's so much out there these days. Best option for less hunting is recommendations from growers that have grown the strain out. I've had two fem strains, Blue Dream by HSO and Blue Pyramid by Pyramid Seeds that showed consistent phenos but even with those there was variation in density and production. When it comes to regs it's all over the place and the big name seed banks/breeders aren't necessarily any better ime. You'll have a better chance with strains that have been worked like IBL or F10+ lines.

WOW! F10's? Aren't you seeing lack of vigor starting around F5's?

I would guess that any "pheno" you may find in S1's (Fem's) are actually seeds from different mothers expressing different genetic "traits" = "pheno's".....I mean, you can't expect seed makers to offer thousands of beans from the same mother! Part of why I like breeders who do ultra small batch's from single mothers...They maybe more expensive then from the "big boys" But in S1's you'll get true consistency! You need that to hold true line breeding from lines with no males (clone only lines),,right?

They also mostly sell regulars. That limited amount of sale packs, still makes for far better uniformity in each pheno you find.

I've found IBL's can be very good for producing off the hook potency.....just have to hit that holy grail plant and it's off to the race's!

 

[Flowki]

Nice info cheers all.

@Dr.Who

Is that to suggest that a seed pheno could lose some of it's appeal once it fully shifts or expresses down the cut line (especially if cuttings from cuttings >and on) or is it a two sided coin where it may get even better once adapted to the surrounding?.

Another question on that. If you are using perpetual cuttings of cuttings then no doubt they would under go different conditions in temp/humidity during the winter/summer months etc (well, unless you have all the picture perfect climate control gadgets). If the cuttings shift to deal with a less than ideal temp range etc would next gen cuts later down the line in more ideal conditions be able to adapt back to the ''optimal'' state. Or would it leave a lasting impact and degrade on the quality of future cuttings?.

 

[GroErr]

WOW! F10's? Aren't you seeing lack of vigor starting around F5's?

I would guess that any "pheno" you may find in S1's (Fem's) are actually seeds from different mothers expressing different genetic "traits" = "pheno's".....I mean, you can't expect seed makers to offer thousands of beans from the same mother! Part of why I like breeders who do ultra small batch's from single mothers...They maybe more expensive then from the "big boys" But in S1's you'll get true consistency! You need that to hold true line breeding from lines with no males (clone only lines),,right?

They also mostly sell regulars. That limited amount of sale packs, still makes for far better uniformity in each pheno you find.

I've found IBL's can be very good for producing off the hook potency.....just have to hit that holy grail plant and it's off to the race's!

Yeah some lines can be somewhat stable/true after F5's but it's difficult to even get the details on most commercial seeds to know. What I have seen though is if they're IBL's or F10+ they will be tagged as such since they're typically legit and tend to have less variation. You'll potentially lose vigour but for true breeding traits to come through in regs it's a trade off. They can also make good starting points for crosses if you hit the right phenos, all about the right pheno. S1's can come out true/stable but there's still no guarantee, I've only seen a couple like the one's I mentioned above be somewhat consistent, but still varying in some areas like bud density and even terps. Clone only's are great for holding true to the original if you can find legit cuts, outside the US though it's hit & miss unless "you know a guy"

 

[Dr. Who]

Nice info cheers all.

@Dr.Who

Is that to suggest that a seed pheno could lose some of it's appeal once it fully shifts or expresses down the cut line (especially if cuttings from cuttings >and on) or is it a two sided coin where it may get even better once adapted to the surrounding?.

Another question on that. If you are using perpetual cuttings of cuttings then no doubt they would under go different conditions in temp/humidity during the winter/summer months etc (well, unless you have all the picture perfect climate control gadgets). If the cuttings shift to deal with a less than ideal temp range etc would next gen cuts later down the line in more ideal conditions be able to adapt back to the ''optimal'' state. Or would it leave a lasting impact and degrade on the quality of future cuttings?.

Once it's a cutting, and down line generations. No, the basic quality and taste etc. - never change....It's just the plant, shifting in it's available genetics. To express the plants structure, owning to the environment it's being grown in. The best growing environment, is part of dialing in for the best quality "potential" from the plant. It's limited BY the genetic "potential".

I have little change in seasonal environmental conditions in my buildings. Minor RH and I control night temps to be the same all year, as I can..... One just cost's more to cool as I hook up a temp control to outside air to be brought in for cooling over AC. That makes for about a 5% drop in ambient RH....The only real thing that changes.

They only "shift" to environmental conditions in the genetic expression of the plants genes included from the cross. They have to be a combination or a hybrid plant.....I have not experienced any loss of quality from environmental "shift" - ever!

 

[Dr. Who]

Yeah some lines can be somewhat stable/true after F5's but it's difficult to even get the details on most commercial seeds to know. What I have seen though is if they're IBL's or F10+ they will be tagged as such since they're typically legit and tend to have less variation. You'll potentially lose vigour but for true breeding traits to come through in regs it's a trade off. They can also make good starting points for crosses if you hit the right phenos, all about the right pheno. S1's can come out true/stable but there's still no guarantee, I've only seen a couple like the one's I mentioned above be somewhat consistent, but still varying in some areas like bud density and even terps. Clone only's are great for holding true to the original if you can find legit cuts, outside the US though it's hit & miss unless "you know a guy"

True enough. I agree that the deeper you breed in the F parings. The more "definition" you find in pheno's.....
I see too much loss of vigor in many strains down the road past F5 -F7! I don't feel it's worth the (my) time to go beyond F4 for my projects.....

Now IBL's can make some interesting pheno's! Another way to definition.......You can get them "too tight" if you know what I mean. They start playing banjo's and squeal like pigs around unfamiliar males..
They start revealing those bad recessive traits quickly!

 

[chemphlegm]

Look like you do very well. Whats the secret to huge fan leaves? o0.

You can alter the size of your fan leaves with varying fertilizer habits . Custom mixed and loose basal salts are available online. I saw no advantage other than photogenic value.

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

So would you say big fan leaves is a sign you are completely dialed in or do genetics mainly play a role in it?. Ofc I know that indica/sativa is a huge difference, I mean if you compare one single strain in various ''healthy enough'' environments would the leaf size drastically vary. Would you credit at all the cmh spectrum for leaf size?. What would be the main neut imbalance to stun leaves, I recall something about high in veg could do it, K is that true?. Sorry for the bombardment ;p.

I grow hybrids so they can look like both thin and fat leaved plants even at the same time.

I only use pure blend pro gro and ocean forest from seed or clone to harvest so I have a balanced complete nute profile. I don't micro manage NPK. It needs to be balanced and complete.

and I believe environment is the most important factor. My rooms stay 74 to 77 at all times in all seasons. And 45-60% relative humidity.

My leaves were huge under HPS only. Light makes a minor difference. Noticible but minor.

So it is a balance of all conditions and genetics that make the plants thrive.

I also water only when needed and transplant up for the best football I can get.