amending as you go?

[calliandra]

ah, i don't know about that, i don't feed the worms any plant nutrients, just fruits and veggies.

I so agree that that's all the microbes need, along with the leaves and whatnot - it's all in there, else those plants the debris came from couldn't have grown in the first place

 

[greasemonkeymann]

I so agree that that's all the microbes need, along with the leaves and whatnot - it's all in there, else those plants the debris came from couldn't have grown in the first place

exactly!
and why i am a HUGE believer in the Law of The Return.
under almost all circumstance the plant can survive and actually thrive with very minimal inputs as far as nutrients go.
remember, leaf-compost typically has a higher NPK value than manure does, and it's all chelated and ready to go, loaded with billions of microbes, and pure humus.
whats not to like?

 

[calliandra]

exactly!
and why i am a HUGE believer in the Law of The Return.
under almost all circumstance the plant can survive and actually thrive with very minimal inputs as far as nutrients go.
remember, leaf-compost typically has a higher NPK value than manure does, and it's all chelated and ready to go, loaded with billions of microbes, and pure humus.
whats not to like?

Nothing!
There is nothing as beautiful as the seeming simplicity of it all, so infinitely complex the closer we look

..and I have the feeling I'll know what chelated means pretty soon too, I've finally gotten into Teaming with Nutrients, which is really a read for me just as fascinating as teaming with fungi has been

 

[greasemonkeymann]

Nothing!
There is nothing as beautiful as the seeming simplicity of it all, so infinitely complex the closer we look

..and I have the feeling I'll know what chelated means pretty soon too, I've finally gotten into Teaming with Nutrients, which is really a read for me just as fascinating as teaming with fungi has been

teaming with nutrients is a bit hard to read, the first bit is ALL plant biology, but after a couple reads its easier to grasp
chelate is just a fancy term for when certain minerals and ions are converted to a useable form of ions.
the term is more used in chemistry
here's a good link for more on that.

http://organicsoiltechnology.com/chelation-and-live-organics-soils.html

I think you'll like that site BTW, it's got a LOT of good information there.
On of my top three favorite sites, and the information is more advanced than the rudimentary stuff you typically see

 

[im4satori]

ok
so im just going to avoid using amendments for now

do oyu think I should get the plug in plastic vents with then netting or just drill the 1/8" holes

im thinking since theyll be sitting in a nursery tray I could just drill holes

 

[im4satori]

ok so my next task is to sort out teas

for now I want to keep it simple (or as simple as my mind will allow)

im going to have two bucket brewing at a time

one primarily for biology and
one for nutritional feeds

maybe rotating them

I was thinking some combination of (not necessarily all)
alfalfa meal
kelp meal
EWC
bat guano (bloom)
bird guano (veg)

for

biology alone
im not sure?
looking to up the microbes and or fungi so whatever doesn't reduce microbes


any input would be appreciated?

 

[im4satori]

so it looks like ive over watered and over fertilized my plants at the moment

the look N heavy and leaves have dropped like over watered

gotta get the feel for these large containers.... I think theyre still holding moisture and im not realizing it

its mild at the moment



im not sure what there called but ive seen them
its like a bulb with a long beak that holds a cup or two of water and you stick it in the dirt
the water slowerly drops in from the bulb

are these things any good?

 

[ShLUbY]

ok so my next task is to sort out teas

for now I want to keep it simple (or as simple as my mind will allow)

im going to have two bucket brewing at a time

one primarily for biology and
one for nutritional feeds

maybe rotating them

I was thinking some combination of (not necessarily all)
alfalfa meal
kelp meal
EWC
bat guano (bloom)
bird guano (veg)

for

biology alone
im not sure?
looking to up the microbes and or fungi so whatever doesn't reduce microbes


any input would be appreciated?

proper soil requires no teas at all. sure they don't hurt anything most of the time... but the real joy is having a water only garden. no muss and no fuss. i have yet to brew a nutrient tea for my organic soil. only bacterial/fungal teas once in awhile. I would just focus on the soil, and the worm bin.

also, i have sprinkled neem meal on the top of my worm bedding, and they friggin love it. it only takes like 1tbsp-2tbsp. it starts to be consumed by the bacteria rather quickly once moistened, and then the worms are all over it. remember, the worms don't eat the scraps, they feed on the stuff breaking down the scraps! i also sprinkle ground up egg shells, oyster shell flour, kelp meal, alfalfa meal, and rock dusts at the same 1-2 tbsp. i dont do all of these at one time either. just one or two of them when i add some freezer mash to the bin.

 

[Tangerine_]

Hey guys. I just want to shout out a big 'Thank You' for this thread. I've been following along and just about every question I had has been graciously "asked" and "answered".

I've read tons of threads on organics but this thread was direct and to the point.

The references and comparisons (fat guy/buffet) really helped to bring things into perspective.

I grew up on a small working farm. As a child I never felt the need to ask "why" we shoveled our stalls out to compost piles or "why" is was so important to heavily mulch or "why" we burned our blueberry fields. I mean, I kinda knew a bit of the science behind it but, for the most part, as kids, we just did the work and reaped the harvest at the end.

And I've always had some type of garden going. Always read my trusty Farmers Almanac but I never really took the time to fully understand the all the diversity happening within the soil.

All of this combined with this thread has cut my learning curve and helped "click" things into place.

So again. Thank you

 

[Wetdog]

also, i have sprinkled neem meal on the top of my worm bedding, and they friggin love it. it only takes like 1tbsp-2tbsp. it starts to be consumed by the bacteria rather quickly once moistened, and then the worms are all over it. remember, the worms don't eat the scraps, they feed on the stuff breaking down the scraps! i also sprinkle ground up egg shells, oyster shell flour, kelp meal, alfalfa meal, and rock dusts at the same 1-2 tbsp. i dont do all of these at one time either. just one or two of them when i add some freezer mash to the bin.

That seems to be a hard one for many to wrap their head around, that worms don't actually "eat" anything (no teeth, no jaws and a tiny mouth), but instead, slurp up the bacterial slime from stuff that's decomposing.

Even then, it seems it still has to smell right or something for them. They do love the neem meal and the bacteria does go to work quickly, but I've noticed it, covered in fuzz and the worms just flat ignoring it for a day or 3. Then, I guess it gets 'ripe' enough and the worms flat out swarm it and poof, it's gone.

OP, pay very close attention to that "1Tbsp-2Tbsp" amount mentioned by ShULby. Small amounts are key to avoid overfeeding. You'll get a feel for it over time, but just like with plants it's easy to overdo it when first starting.

 

[greasemonkeymann]

ok so my next task is to sort out teas

for now I want to keep it simple (or as simple as my mind will allow)

im going to have two bucket brewing at a time

one primarily for biology and
one for nutritional feeds

maybe rotating them

I was thinking some combination of (not necessarily all)
alfalfa meal
kelp meal
EWC
bat guano (bloom)
bird guano (veg)

for

biology alone
im not sure?
looking to up the microbes and or fungi so whatever doesn't reduce microbes


any input would be appreciated?

ok, i love ya man, but i gotta give ya some tough love here,
i'm afraid you are already on your way down the path of frustration.
i think you are putting too much thought and probably effort into this.
Which is admirable, it's cool that you want to do the best job you can. Really it is.

BUT, remember the key to organics is replicating nature, the approach you are taking (90% of growers are guilty of this as well) is that you are doing too much.
Setup the soil, let it cycle, get a fresh source of microbes/humus. and water them. Pay the energy bill.
That's it.

it simply does not need human interaction, that's the goal here.

Trust me it seems counterintuitive but it's true, the more you leave them alone, the better they'll grow.

It's ALL about getting the soil assembled right, after that it's sit back and watch.

What you are wanting to do is counterproductive, teas are great and all, but they aren't needed much in an amended properly assembled soil mix.
Oftentimes they can make things worse, the soil web is evolved perfectly to have exactly the type of microbes it needs, attracting the perfect ph producing microbes, and the perfect mix of microbes to make the nutrients bioavailable. all that is a ecosystem on it's own.
Adding teas to that upsets a lot, and adding more organic material to your mix adds potentially complications, remember dissolved solids in a mix are essentially organic salts (for the arguments sake)
here is a copy and paste that is relative. This is pertaining to water, but it's applicable to soil as well.


---Electrical Conductivity (EC) of a solution is a measure of ionic compounds dissolved in water. Organic Nutrients are ionic compounds. Another name for ionic compounds is salts. . ---


You can do all the stuff you are wanting to do, but that's essentially more of a hydroponic type thing, you are feeding via the water, rather than the soilweb.

Be certain that all i am trying to do is simplify a mindset of growing that is the most efficient.
Not trying to throw shade your way.

like i always say, a field of grass is green every yr, how does it do that without humans feeding teas or whatnot?

Replicate nature.
Trust me, when you get it all setup you'll be amazed on how little is needed.
Past the occasional comfrey topdress i do WAY more work on the compost and wormbins than i do for growing, and even that is minimal.

 

[im4satori]

alfalfa meal
kelp meal
bat guano (bloom)
bird guano (veg)
humic acid
fulvic acid
phospha

proper soil requires no teas at all. sure they don't hurt anything most of the time... but the real joy is having a water only garden. no muss and no fuss. i have yet to brew a nutrient tea for my organic soil. only bacterial/fungal teas once in awhile. I would just focus on the soil, and the worm bin.

also, i have sprinkled neem meal on the top of my worm bedding, and they friggin love it. it only takes like 1tbsp-2tbsp. it starts to be consumed by the bacteria rather quickly once moistened, and then the worms are all over it. remember, the worms don't eat the scraps, they feed on the stuff breaking down the scraps! i also sprinkle ground up egg shells, oyster shell flour, kelp meal, alfalfa meal, and rock dusts at the same 1-2 tbsp. i dont do all of these at one time either. just one or two of them when i add some freezer mash to the bin.

I did some reading and came across some info speaking in terms of fungi vs bacteria and it posed a question Id thought not to consider

is there a proper balance between fungi and bacteria

if the answer is yes then wouldn't it be possible to throw the balance out with repeated bacterial teas

or is it less of a balance between them and more of providing max numbers of each with one not effecting the others potential?

 

[im4satori]

ok, i love ya man, but i gotta give ya some tough love here,
i'm afraid you are already on your way down the path of frustration.
i think you are putting too much thought and probably effort into this.
Which is admirable, it's cool that you want to do the best job you can. Really it is.

BUT, remember the key to organics is replicating nature, the approach you are taking (90% of growers are guilty of this as well) is that you are doing too much.
Setup the soil, let it cycle, get a fresh source of microbes/humus. and water them. Pay the energy bill.
That's it.

it simply does not need human interaction, that's the goal here.

Trust me it seems counterintuitive but it's true, the more you leave them alone, the better they'll grow.

It's ALL about getting the soil assembled right, after that it's sit back and watch.

What you are wanting to do is counterproductive, teas are great and all, but they aren't needed much in an amended properly assembled soil mix.
Oftentimes they can make things worse, the soil web is evolved perfectly to have exactly the type of microbes it needs, attracting the perfect ph producing microbes, and the perfect mix of microbes to make the nutrients bioavailable. all that is a ecosystem on it's own.
Adding teas to that upsets a lot, and adding more organic material to your mix adds potentially complications, remember dissolved solids in a mix are essentially organic salts (for the arguments sake)
here is a copy and paste that is relative. This is pertaining to water, but it's applicable to soil as well.


---Electrical Conductivity (EC) of a solution is a measure of ionic compounds dissolved in water. Organic Nutrients are ionic compounds. Another name for ionic compounds is salts. . ---


You can do all the stuff you are wanting to do, but that's essentially more of a hydroponic type thing, you are feeding via the water, rather than the soilweb.

Be certain that all i am trying to do is simplify a mindset of growing that is the most efficient.
Not trying to throw shade your way.

like i always say, a field of grass is green every yr, how does it do that without humans feeding teas or whatnot?

Replicate nature.
Trust me, when you get it all setup you'll be amazed on how little is needed.
Past the occasional comfrey topdress i do WAY more work on the compost and wormbins than i do for growing, and even that is minimal.

im currently growing in fox farm ocean forest

I didn't do the amending prior

ive had to water with non organic liquid fertilizer a couple times during veg or add Epsom salt, or calcium nitrate to make up the difference... not much or often just as plants show
im sure theres a better way, but this is the way I fully understand at the moment

each time I do that im sending my eco system backward... id thought a little tea 1x per week would offset the need for me to make quick adjustments with non organic fertilizers and re-introduce the microbes to keep the organic process moving

maybe this isn't the right approach
I didn't intend to throw a lot into it just something to keep the soil alive to offset the chem ferts (im ulimatley trying to avoid)

maybe id be better off to avoid the tea and just top dress with some tomato tone
but its hard for me to foresee that
the tomato tone takes a couple weeks or more to become available

I understand it seems im moving into what looks like a busy business

 

[greasemonkeymann]

im currently growing in fox farm ocean forest

I didn't do the amending prior

ive had to water with non organic liquid fertilizer a couple times during veg or add Epsom salt, or calcium nitrate to make up the difference... not much or often just as plants show
im sure theres a better way, but this is the way I fully understand at the moment

each time I do that im sending my eco system backward... id thought a little tea 1x per week would offset the need for me to make quick adjustments with non organic fertilizers and re-introduce the microbes to keep the organic process moving

maybe this isn't the right approach
I didn't intend to throw a lot into it just something to keep the soil alive to offset the chem ferts (im ulimatley trying to avoid)

maybe id be better off to avoid the tea and just top dress with some tomato tone
but its hard for me to foresee that
the tomato tone takes a couple weeks or more to become available

I understand it seems im moving into what looks like a busy business

so the teas are for the fox farm, gotcha.
if they are needing nutrients you could use teas for that sure, but like i said earlier, it's not needed to have vege and flower teas going at the same time.
be CERTAIN they need it though..
more often than not if the plants have problems manifesting, it's usually not because of a nutrient def...

Depending on the container FFOF can get them about halfway to flowering before defs start showing up, usually it's calcium and/or nitrogen that runs dry first.
then potassium..

 

[im4satori]

@greasemonkeymann
don't think I don't appreciate the tough love
I hear the message and appreciate it

 

[im4satori]

so the teas are for the fox farm, gotcha.
if they are needing nutrients you could use teas for that sure, but like i said earlier, it's not needed to have vege and flower teas going at the same time.
be CERTAIN they need it though..
more often than not if the plants have problems manifesting, it's usually not because of a nutrient def...

Depending on the container FFOF can get them about halfway to flowering before defs start showing up, usually it's calcium and/or nitrogen that runs dry first.
then potassium..

exactly

turned out I wasn't over watering

I had K def.... I watered with potassium sulfate and some micros and its already 90% better

never actually had K def before

when the leaves started showing blue hue I thought better safe than sorry


the response from the plants tells the story

 

[im4satori]

just gotta get some holes drill and make it damp
gonna order the worms in a about 10 days

how many should I start with per container? (18 gallon container ....3 containers combined makes 8 sq ft of surface area

 

[im4satori]

going in the freezer

todays scraps from breakfast smoothy and last nights dinner
on todays worm menu
papaya skins and seeds
banana skin
soft apple
green pepper

 

[im4satori]

so ive been saving me egg shells

its amazing

everything I normally throw away without thought is becoming gold

 

[im4satori]