The end of suffering

[New Age United]

OK so you are correctly referring to the human condition as manifested in ideas that we have about ourselves, as 'suffering' or 'sorrow' the words are interchangeable for the purposes of this discussion. Your intro post is so preposterous as to inevitably be taken as sarcasm or parody. I mean who just begins a thread saying "I can solve the human problem".

The contradiction is in the 'showing' the 'way out', but more on that later, for the moment without defining terms better, we have to assume that you know the 'way out' of the human condition, if that is the case then you will be able to state what exactly is this human condition and by what means of knowledge you intend to use. And how will the 'suffering' be ended.

as John said it can be caused by unfulfilled desire

It's not possible to have a meaningful discussion if weasel words like the above are allowed to pass without comment. So here goes... Either say "it is caused by unfulfilled desire", or don't say it at all. I'm not trying to be argumentative here it's a serious point. Do you see?

The problem is deeper than a so called 'unfulfilled desire' as a little rudimentary analysis can show. In fact this is the common error that nearly all people make.

It's not preposterous it's actually very simple, for thousands maybe millions of year the human being has mistaken its identity as the Thinker, they truly believe that they are the ones who are thinking inside their heads. You are not the Thinker that is your ego, that little nagging voice that takes everything way too seriously and never shuts up, but if you can recognize your true self as pure awareness then the identification with the ego is broken and it ceases to exist, you can do this by becoming aware of space, of all the emptiness around you. If this doesn't make perfect sense then you are not ready to awaken and will remain trapped in the darkness of your own mind where all forms of suffering rule your life, fear, sadness, anxiety, boredom, anger etc.

 

[JohnDee]

It's not possible to have a meaningful discussion if weasel words like the above are allowed to pass without comment. So here goes... Either say "it is caused by unfulfilled desire", or don't say it at all. I'm not trying to be argumentative here it's a serious point. Do you see?

The problem is deeper than a so called 'unfulfilled desire' as a little rudimentary analysis can show. In fact this is the common error that nearly all people make.

Just to clarify...I did not say suffering CAN BE caused by unfulfilled desire. Those were NAUs words. What I said is this: All human suffering is caused by unfulfilled desire.

This is the core of Buddhist teaching...so to argue against this comment is to argue with the Buddha. Good luck with that.
JD

 

[yummy fur]

Just to clarify...I did not say suffering CAN BE caused by unfulfilled desire. Those were NAUs words. What I said is this: All human suffering is caused by unfulfilled desire.

This is the core of Buddhist teaching...so to argue against this comment is to argue with the Buddha. Good luck with that.
JD

Yeah, I'm not surprised he/she misquoted you. Now that you've clarified that, without me putting words into your mouth I feel obliged to point out the error of your proposition that 'all human suffering is caused by unfulfilled desire'. Before I do that though, I want to address your implication that 'arguing with the Buddha' is somehow an already losing proposition.

The irony is that argument, or more to the point, superior analytical enquiry is what got the Buddha out of India, he had more luck with the apparently less rigorous eastern religions. So something stands or falls on its veracity or lack of, but nothing stands just because it's quoted from 'authority' which is basically what you are doing. The Buddha said this... and that's the end of the matter.

It's not the desire which is the problem for if it were then life would be fundamentally fucked. The problem is whether the desire is binding or non binding. It's fine to have desires, it's fine to have them unfulfilled, to have an equanimity of mind due to an understanding that everything is in order, which comes from the knowledge of what is, is what we really desire.

This is just trying to get a handle on this rather large topic, which NAU is not doing a very good job at, in fact without meaning to be rude @NAU, your previous post while being well intentioned just comes across as preaching from someone who themselves has recognised there is a human problem but had most definitely not solved it.

 

[New Age United]

Yeah, I'm not surprised he/she misquoted you. Now that you've clarified that, without me putting words into your mouth I feel obliged to point out the error of your proposition that 'all human suffering is caused by unfulfilled desire'. Before I do that though, I want to address your implication that 'arguing with the Buddha' is somehow an already losing proposition.

The irony is that argument, or more to the point, superior analytical enquiry is what got the Buddha out of India, he had more luck with the apparently less rigorous eastern religions. So something stands or falls on its veracity or lack of, but nothing stands just because it's quoted from 'authority' which is basically what you are doing. The Buddha said this... and that's the end of the matter.

It's not the desire which is the problem for if it were then life would be fundamentally fucked. The problem is whether the desire is binding or non binding. It's fine to have desires, it's fine to have them unfulfilled, to have an equanimity of mind due to an understanding that everything is in order, which comes from the knowledge of what is, is what we really desire.

This is just trying to get a handle on this rather large topic, which NAU is not doing a very good job at, in fact without meaning to be rude @NAU, your previous post while being well intentioned just comes across as preaching from someone who themselves has recognised there is a human problem but had most definitely not solved it.

I wasnt quoting john I was saying that unfulfilled desire "can" cause suffering but is certainly not the only cause. Now I will quote the buddha my self, when Siddhartha was asked what is Enlightenment all he replied was "the end of suffering". There actually is a way out of suffering, it is not complicated or difficult at all, it is not a goal to be attained in the future it is something that you can do right now.

Become aware of Space, of all the emptiness around you, when you are aware of Space you have a brief lapse in the constant stream of thinking, if you become aware of Space as often as you can remember those gaps in thought will become longer until eventually you can maintain Presence for long periods and eventually the state of Presence will become your natural state, the state of Enlightenment. In this state you realize that there is absolutely nothing wrong with this moment, the world is not hell it is actually a very peaceful Paradise.

Now I am not actually typing these words for you but for others to read, people who are not so bound by their egos, their minds, the world, I have no interest in proving anything to anybody I realized long ago that it was a waste of time.

"Everything that I have told you is not for me but for you alone" Muhammad

I don't get gratification from hearing myself speak I get gratification from helping people break free from suffering.

 

[JohnDee]

New age United,
I don't know why you feel this reason to proselytize. That is not the Buddhist way. You seem to be experiencing some sort of personal vision relating to the path toward enlightenment. You see the path...but the path is not the goal. I apologize for intruding on whatever it is you're trying to accomplish here.
JD

 

[New Age United]

New age United,
I don't know why you feel this reason to proselytize. That is not the Buddhist way. You seem to be experiencing some sort of personal vision relating to the path toward enlightenment. You see the path...but the path is not the goal. I apologize for intruding on whatever it is you're trying to accomplish here.
JD

I'm not trying to accomplish anything John, there is no goal, all of these belong to the realm of mind, I am simply allowing consciousness to awaken from its sleep and realize true Enlightenment, which is not any idea or form but the words I write are only pointers towards something much bigger than ideas and forms, all things are forms, even thoughts are forms, you have to find the formless both within and without, by becoming aware of space we become aware of our own formless essence.

 

[gearshift]

I am suffering here! LOL while crying for understanding. How can one be aware of Space and "see" the emptiness around me, only? Personally, most of my adult life has been Paradise which briefly is lost when I again become aware of my or other's sufferings. The Lakota elders and Shaman in Pine Ridge called me "a wind walker" many years and sufferings ago. When I wind walk "I" have no suffering nor have "I" felt the suffering of others; also I am not sure if "I" am aware of suffering at all. This said, the only emptiness I have been aware of, is the lack of something my (suffering) mind tells me should be and is not. There is no awareness of emptiness when "I" wind walk. Perhaps I don't understand what emptiness is.

 

[New Age United]

I am suffering here! LOL while crying for understanding. How can one be aware of Space and "see" the emptiness around me, only? Personally, most of my adult life has been Paradise which briefly is lost when I again become aware of my or other's sufferings. The Lakota elders and Shaman in Pine Ridge called me "a wind walker" many years and sufferings ago. When I wind walk "I" have no suffering nor have "I" felt the suffering of others; also I am not sure if "I" am aware of suffering at all. This said, the only emptiness I have been aware of, is the lack of something my (suffering) mind tells me should be and is not. There is no awareness of emptiness when "I" wind walk. Perhaps I don't understand what emptiness is.

Actually when you become aware of Space you become aware of everything, instead of your attention being consumed by your thoughts you become directly aware of the present moment, the universe as it truly exists in this moment.

Yes suffering will still present itself both within you and in others the key is not to try to avoid or resist suffering but to accept it and allow it to be as it is, you have to say yes to it and when you do you will find that the emotional pain loses its charge.

That's great that you are living in Paradise life is some beautiful isn't it. Suffering now is just a reminder that all things are fleeting and unimportant.

 

[gearshift]

Thank you! I can "see" and I think I can understand your comments. Thanks. My sufferings seem insubstantial when their time is over, especially when the awareness of the sufferings of others seem to overwhelms me, at those times I am not sure if I feel empathy or the need to fix things.

But. But, I am not sure what being aware of emptiness is. When I wind walk, (what others call: out of body or being in the Spirit), it seems like all of me is there and aware, (there is no suffering that "I" am aware of, there is thought without the need to control my thoughts) and there is no emptiness. The thought of emptiness causes within me a type of suffering. (To me emptiness is the same as nothing and it "hurts" to even to think of nothingness.
Thank you, NAU. (No offence intended in referring to you as that.)

 

[gearshift]

Paradise!!!
I "know". It is a "time" when everything is right and peaceful and good. I am even when all others may not be. I am alone, but not lonely, surrounded by humanity. Everything and everyone is beautiful even though I alone, it may seem, am aware of the total beauty and joy of life.
Is that Paradise? It is to me.

 

[New Age United]

Paradise!!!
I "know". It is a "time" when everything is right and peaceful and good. I am even when all others may not be. I am alone, but not lonely, surrounded by humanity. Everything and everyone is beautiful even though I alone, it may seem, am aware of the total beauty and joy of life.
Is that Paradise? It is to me.

Yes that is the Paradise I am referring to, Tolle calls it the simple joy of being, when you can be alone and not feel lonely or be doing nothing and not get bored, you just enjoy being alive.

The thought of nothingness can cause suffering to the mind bc it can only conceive objects, things, forms. The thought of nothingness is inconceivable, even more frightening to the ego is the thought that you yourself are nothingness, emptiness, formlessness, but by finding the formless within and without you lose your attachment to this world, the bond breaks and suddenly the world is not so dark, heavy, alien, and serious.

A sacred balance has been lost in man it is the balance between things and nothing, form and formless, between the world and You. Once you find the formless self, your true self, pure awareness, the light, then all of a sudden the world becomes insignificant yet at the same time beautiful and sacred.

I would highly recommend the book "a new Earth" by Eckhart Tolle

 

[yummy fur]

@NAU, I was saying that unfulfilled desire "can" cause suffering

that is incorrect. Give me an example if you like and I'll show you how it will be incorrect under analysis.

@NAU, I don't get gratification from hearing myself speak I get gratification from helping people break free from suffering.

Well it certainly seems like that because you have not addressed *any* of the points I raised so what is the fucking point of starting the thread if you are going to ignore a query. It can only be because you don't give a shit and just want to, as someone has already said, proselytise.

 

[New Age United]

@NAU, I was saying that unfulfilled desire "can" cause suffering

that is incorrect. Give me an example if you like and I'll show you how it will be incorrect under analysis.

@NAU, I don't get gratification from hearing myself speak I get gratification from helping people break free from suffering.

Well it certainly seems like that because you have not addressed *any* of the points I raised so what is the fucking point of starting the thread if you are going to ignore a query. It can only be because you don't give a shit and just want to, as someone has already said, proselytise.

I'm not going to try to make something so incredibly simple any more simple for you, on unfulfilled desire. And what points did you make exactly maybe if you had addressed me with respect I would have given more attention to your posts, right now I do not see how you're worth my time so that is about all the effort I am going to give you.

 

[Bugeye]

All of my needs are met. I have not one worry. I am filled with gratitude. Yet precious little in my material world has changed. I have gotten here by surrendering my ego to a higher power and calming my inner voice. I sense I am far closer to the beginning of this path than the end, and this thought gives me great hope for what lies ahead. Today I send everyone love. May we all come to love one another and be the light of the world.

 

[New Age United]

All of my needs are met. I have not one worry. I am filled with gratitude. Yet precious little in my material world has changed. I have gotten here by surrendering my ego to a higher power and calming my inner voice. I sense I am far closer to the beginning of this path than the end, and this thought gives me great hope for what lies ahead. Today I send everyone love. May we all come to love one another and be the light of the world.

Well said Bugeye

 

[New Age United]

I'm going to take a piece of wisdom from Bugeye's slogan "rejoice in your ability to choose again" and try to start over with you @yummy fur. For the record I wasn't saying that you were the one who gets gratification from your own words I was just making the point that I am not out here trying to boost my own ego.

 

[gearshift]

Wow!! The joy! The joy!
I am you and you are me.
We are tree, the cloud, the water...and they are us.
I was taught that Jesus said I was to follow the path. But I could not find the path. I have always been on the path. I only now aware!
Thanks for the post and all who have replied!!!

 

[gearshift]

@New Age United,
I know I know the answer, will ask the question.
Yes I see how my mind can't grasp emptiness and that the true me is formless, even though I know that is truth.
My mind has been greatly influenced by the western way of thinking. Not a problem when I am alone in my thoughts and let them drift by and the next one drifts in.
My question is about understanding emptiness.
I have a glass full of sour milk, the glass needs to be empty( yes it will be full of air) before it can be filled with something better. Is my understanding close to yours?

 

[Bugeye]

@New Age United,
I know I know the answer, will ask the question.
Yes I see how my mind can't grasp emptiness and that the true me is formless, even though I know that is truth.
My mind has been greatly influenced by the western way of thinking. Not a problem when I am alone in my thoughts and let them drift by and the next one drifts in.
My question is about understanding emptiness.
I have a glass full of sour milk, the glass needs to be empty( yes it will be full of air) before it can be filled with something better. Is my understanding close to yours?

Not addressed to me but I dig your thinking. In the quantum world, your glass would be both full and unfull of all liquids at all times and your consciousness would determine what was or wasn’t in the glass at any time. I think it might be the same in the spiritual world, but I don’t think that was what you were asking.

I think your analogy is more about moving from our 3D world to a higher level of spiritual awareness? For me, I gotta empty the buttermilk first, calm the mind, before I can fill up the glass with something else. But I’m pretty new to it all. I think others that are farther down the path than I, can switch that buttermilk to whatever they want without emptying it first. So I don’t know that there is an answer to your question but if you are speaking to the power of quieting your mind, I’m with you! Perhaps a critical skill to learn for spiritual development? I think so.

 

[New Age United]

@New Age United,
I know I know the answer, will ask the question.
Yes I see how my mind can't grasp emptiness and that the true me is formless, even though I know that is truth.
My mind has been greatly influenced by the western way of thinking. Not a problem when I am alone in my thoughts and let them drift by and the next one drifts in.
My question is about understanding emptiness.
I have a glass full of sour milk, the glass needs to be empty( yes it will be full of air) before it can be filled with something better. Is my understanding close to yours?

Yes, but maybe not how you are thinking. You want to throw away the sour milk but you don't want to refill it with milk that will soon go sour, after all this is Eternity and you are in no hurry so you drink your milk slow, savoring the taste, feeling the wholesome nutrition that is entering the body, filled with gratitude and Bliss.

The thing is that even your happy emotions are not what we want to be full of, that is not true Bliss. All emotions are fleeting and carry with them their opposite, it is a two sided coin, and they depend heavily on the content of your thinking so inevitably your happiness will pass and become suffering at somepoint(the milk goes sour).

What if I told you that there is a cow in the pasture who's milk never sours, would you wanna keep drinking the good milk that never sours or keep wasting the other milk that sours quickly? There is a center in you, and in that center there is perfect stillness, find your center, then anchor your attention there. From this center emanates nothing but Peace, Bliss and Love, which are not emotions they do not exist in the body and influence your mind, they emanate from the Source of all creation, the very Source that created your body, they emanate from your deepest being, they are Eternal they don't pass quickly or turn sour so to speak.

It is this Peace, Bliss and Love that we want to be full of, and the good news is that you already have all three emanating inside you, you just have uncover them.

I will get more into how to achieve Presence and how to maintain that Presence a little later, which is your center, your connection to the Source of all Eternal Life Energy.