The Ultimate Growing Competition

[dstroy]

I think if you have all the Foxfarm Bottled Nutrients and follow their feeding chart you will have a salinity issue unless you flush with Saponins or a crap ton of water. I guess you could call that operator error for not knowing any better but would have a negative impact on you rhizosphere for sure.



Here is Foxfarm Grow Big
Ingredients: Ammonium sulfate, ammonium phosphate, urea, blood meal, potassium nitrate, potassium sulfate, earthworm castings, Norwegian kelp, iron EDTA, zinc EDTA, manganese EDTA, copper EDTA, chelating agent, disodium ethylenediamine tetra acetate (EDTA), sodium borate and sodium molybdate.


INORGANIC SALTS
These are simple mineral compounds such as sulfates or chlorides. Plants are accustomed
to dealing with minerals in this form but don't always do a good job of controlling
absorption. Although mineral absorption increases when there is a mineral shortage, and
decreases when mineral levels are high, the plants mineral transport system often misregulates
minerals that share the same transport channels. For example, when copper and
zinc salts are consumed together, they compete with each other for transport into the plant.
An excess of zinc can, therefore, cause a deficiency of copper. If ones purpose in using
mineral fertilizers are to force the plant to use more minerals than it normally would, the
inorganic salts would be a poor choice. The rates of application for inorganic salts can be
quite high and the frequency of application is also frequent, therefore making the total cost
of inputs quite high over the growing season.


EDTA
EDTA or ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid is a novel molecule used for
complexing minerals. EDTA is a synthetic chelating agent which binds
to an element and is used in cosmetics, medicine, and plant nutrition. It
is an agent which can not be utilized by the plant (never breaks down)
and binds to minerals such as Calcium very tightly and makes the
mineral less available once inside the plant. The complexed molecule is
large and enters mainly from the underside of the leaf. Too much EDTA is
toxic to plants. EDTA is best used in pHs below 7.

I don't use fox farm fertilizer. I use FFOF for my mom plants though.

NaCl (sodium chloride) is table salt.

There isn't any NaCl in any appreciable amount in the fertilizer that I use. I just check the guaranteed analysis before I use something.

 

[H.A.F.]

Truth is the issue most people have with organics and a Living Soil System is this - It doesn't come in a bottle.

Basically, my soil is not 'organic' nor should it be reused for weed. Figured that one on my own.

And yes I like easy, and in a bottle is fine depending. That said, there are many bottles to choose from, some are closer to organic than others.

But it's not just about easy, it's getting used to a system - then hopefully perfecting it. So starting with fresh soil was also a way to have a baseline for future experiments, trying different things with nutes and pruning has been the extent of my investigation so far. I tried a 'super soil' but didn't do something right and it sucked.

 

[H.A.F.]

And for the super soil thing, I got a recipe and spent close to $200 on the right soil and amendments all to get about 10 gallons of soil mix. When it started killing off plants (probably my error, I get that) I decided that 'easy' was to go with a pre-mixed soil and go from there. cheaper too.

 

[H.A.F.]

I think if you have all the Foxfarm Bottled Nutrients and follow their feeding chart you will have a salinity issue unless you flush with Saponins or a crap ton of water. I guess you could call that operator error for not knowing any better but would have a negative impact on you rhizosphere for sure.



Here is Foxfarm Grow Big
Ingredients: Ammonium sulfate, ammonium phosphate, urea, blood meal, potassium nitrate, potassium sulfate, earthworm castings, Norwegian kelp, iron EDTA, zinc EDTA, manganese EDTA, copper EDTA, chelating agent, disodium ethylenediamine tetra acetate (EDTA), sodium borate and sodium molybdate.


INORGANIC SALTS
These are simple mineral compounds such as sulfates or chlorides. Plants are accustomed
to dealing with minerals in this form but don't always do a good job of controlling
absorption. Although mineral absorption increases when there is a mineral shortage, and
decreases when mineral levels are high, the plants mineral transport system often misregulates
minerals that share the same transport channels. For example, when copper and
zinc salts are consumed together, they compete with each other for transport into the plant.
An excess of zinc can, therefore, cause a deficiency of copper. If ones purpose in using
mineral fertilizers are to force the plant to use more minerals than it normally would, the
inorganic salts would be a poor choice. The rates of application for inorganic salts can be
quite high and the frequency of application is also frequent, therefore making the total cost
of inputs quite high over the growing season.


EDTA
EDTA or ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid is a novel molecule used for
complexing minerals. EDTA is a synthetic chelating agent which binds
to an element and is used in cosmetics, medicine, and plant nutrition. It
is an agent which can not be utilized by the plant (never breaks down)
and binds to minerals such as Calcium very tightly and makes the
mineral less available once inside the plant. The complexed molecule is
large and enters mainly from the underside of the leaf. Too much EDTA is
toxic to plants. EDTA is best used in pHs below 7.

To show I am reading... a few nuggets from this:

"Best used in pH below 7" - check. To me, I read that it is used in the environment we grow in. also that it has a use. What use and why does FF use it? It appears they are on to something, because they use a lot of it and I grow big flowers. So why they have it would be the question. My guess would be that it also has to do with the water solubility of those minerals, and how that effects uptake.

"enters mainly from the underside of the leaf."
So it really only enters if you foliar spray, and they don't recommend foliar feeding with the product, there must be another clue somewhere. They even add another 'chelating' agent AND the EDTA by itself that probably binds to some other element.

 

[J.James]

To show I am reading... a few nuggets from this:
View attachment 4334816
"Best used in pH below 7" - check. To me, I read that it is used in the environment we grow in. also that it has a use. What use and why does FF use it? It appears they are on to something, because they use a lot of it and I grow big flowers. So why they have it would be the question. My guess would be that it also has to do with the water solubility of those minerals, and how that effects uptake.

"enters mainly from the underside of the leaf."
So it really only enters if you foliar spray, and they don't recommend foliar feeding with the product, there must be another clue somewhere.

The takeaway is just that, Be aware of what you are using and what is in it. What form it is in, How that form breaks down, what the byproducts are left behind. Some of the best plants are grown using a balance system of organic mediums and synthetic fertilizers. Just as homebrewer stated earlier that synthetic fertilizers can feed and increase soil life when used correctly. Look at the examples here in this comp. My plants were off to a slow start in comparison to Pa-Nature who was using foliar sprays to boost nitrogen levels in early seedling and veg stages. Finding that balance is important I think to produce the best end product.

 

[H.A.F.]

disodium - 2 salts
ethylene - alcohol
diamine - 2 amines
tetra acetate - 4 glues

Am I close?

 

[H.A.F.]

And all the things listed with EDTA are the sub-elements (not NPK) so could it be limiting their absorption in specific quantities by design?

I mean, we're talking advanced chemical engineering for big $$$. I'm sure they thought of shit like that.

 

[J.James]

disodium - 2 salts
ethylene - alcohol
diamine - 2 amines
tetra acetate - 4 glues

Am I close?

And all the things listed with EDTA are the sub-elements (not NPK) so could it be limiting their absorption in specific quantities by design?

I mean, we're talking advanced chemical engineering for big $$$. I'm sure they thought of shit like that.

Did you start looking at the other bottles in comparison to this one?

 

[H.A.F.]

Did you start looking at the other bottles in comparison to this one?

I did and they all have EDTA elements.

Edited: My bad, the Big Bloom has none, the other two do.

 

[H.A.F.]

Did you start looking at the other bottles in comparison to this one?

Their Gringo Rasta line only has the EDTA in the micronutrients part of the trio, not the veg or bloom - which was why I made the last comment about their use of it. The original trio has micro-nutes in all three. The veg and bloom in the Gringo are all NPK specific.

 

[J.James]

Their Gringo Rasta line only has the EDTA in the micronutrients part of the trio, not the veg or bloom - which was why I made the last comment about their use of it. The original trio has micro-nutes in all three. The veg and bloom in the Gringo are all NPK specific.

I did and they all have EDTA elements.

Edited: My bad, the Big Bloom has none, the other two do.

The EDTA Chelates the micronutrients and heavy metals so that the plant can absorb it and move it around inside the plant itself. Sulfates or Chlorides are in the same sense a vessel for the nutrients to be absorbed by the roots and moved around inside the plant. Not a bad thing, A very good thing really. Salts left behind by Sulfates & Chlorides can change the PH of the soil over time. Most Chelates have a very limited PH absorption window and is why it is important to PH you nutrient solution before you water the plants

 

[Big Perm]

Just my $.02.
I'd learn how to grow it first, then move onto dissecting each ingredient in a product down to the periodic table.

 

[J.James]

Just my $.02.
I'd learn how to grow it first, then move onto dissecting each ingredient in a product down to the periodic table.

 

[H.A.F.]

Just my $.02.
I'd learn how to grow it first, then move onto dissecting each ingredient in a product down to the periodic table.

And the mid-point between the two is "use the bottle stupid - but try to understand why"

 

[Big Perm]

And the mid-point between the two is "use the bottle stupid - but try to understand why"

You got caught up in it bro.
Why would a company sell a product like soil that they boast about having everything you need in it. Then, also sell you a bunch of stuff to put in that same soil on day 1.
Think about it...

 

[Big Perm]

I'll make a vid about my living soil sometime. If you want to follow it you can. I'm not going to argue after it about N content or anything. It'll be a take it or leave it kind of thing. I'll show you how to go from start to finish without 'pouring' $$$ into it.

 

[Big Perm]

You can also take FF soil and lightly amend it, let it set for a few weeks, and that will be all you need. It makes an excellent base, and after the first use is awesome to recycle.

 

[J.James]

You can also take FF soil and lightly amend it, let it set for a few weeks, and that will be all you need. It makes an excellent base, and after the first use is awesome to recycle.

I agree 100% FFOF is great soil full of nutrients and has great water retention. I bought new LOS for the comp, But I haven't bought soil in 6 years except to start seeds in and I use Roots Organics Original for that. I bet 75% of my worm bin is FFOF from when I still used the whole foxfarm lineup.

 

[DesertPlants]

@Big Perm I have never done living soil, so I look forward to your video. It's something I would like to try.

 

[homebrewer]

When I read this again, you are right my friend, I should have worded it differently. Salts do have a positive impact on the rhizosphere when used correctly but most nutrient companies push consumers so close to the limits that the soil environment becomes unbalanced and unstable

Absolutely! I tried explaining that to Dinkus earlier in not so many words.