Feminising seed without colloidal silver etc

[PJ Diaz]

Good morning. When a plant is forced to create balls out of stress the hermie trait becomes prevalent in the pollen it produces. Meaning it has a higher rate of creating hermie plants when the pollen is given to a female.

Nanners is a natural way of a plants last ditch effort to reproduce itself. Most of the time nanners produce viable pollen that can be used to make female seeds. This pollen is less apt to produce hermie plants. Plants can be stressed into nanners as well but that becomes a strain related thing for how much stress is needed.

For example I had a couple of blueberry big bud that threw nanners due to letting it run longer than needed. That was on purpose.

The other heat stress induced. Not on purpose. Both nannered. I have the pollen for both to solo cup some ww x blueberry seeds.

TLDR: Hermie plants tend to create hermie seeds. Nannered plants are used as a viable way to create female seeds without the hermie trait being bred into them.

Stressing your plants in anyway to produce pollen sacks will undoubtedly produce seeds that will be more likely to hermaphrodite if you use that pollen. Genetically superior plants will not herm or "throw balls" no matter how much you stress them. Try growing out some of the seeds you've created with the pollen from your stressed female plants and then come back to this thread.

The idea that stressing a plant in any way, in an effort to produce male flowers on a female plant, fundamentally alters the genetics of the donor pollen to somehow make the offspring more likely to exhibit hermaphroditic expressions is complete and utter nonsense.

I do agree with the notion that naturally hermaphroditic plants or plants when herm easily under low levels of stress are more likely to have offspring which exhibit similar traits, however those same traits would be apparent in the offspring irregardless of how the plant was sexually reversed. Look guys this is genetics 101. Science, not bro science. Stress on a plant does not fundamentally alter the plants DNA. Fact.

 

[bEelzeBosS]

The idea that stressing a plant in any way, in an effort to produce male flowers on a female plant, fundamentally alters the genetics of the donor pollen to somehow make the offspring more likely to exhibit hermaphroditic expressions is complete and utter nonsense.

I do agree with the notion that naturally hermaphroditic plants or plants when herm easily under low levels of stress are more likely to have offspring which exhibit similar traits, however those same traits would be apparent in the offspring irregardless of how the plant was sexually reversed. Look guys this is genetics 101. Science, not bro science. Stress on a plant does not fundamentally alter the plants DNA. Fact.

My point was, if his plants are "throwing balls" after he stresses them out, the pollen from those plants is useless. As you said, the offspring from those plants would likely herm under stress as well.

however those same traits would be apparent in the offspring irregardless of how the plant was sexually reversed

This is true, that's why before using colloidal silver on a plant I always stress the hell out of them beforehand. No sense in wasting the time producing pollen for fem seeds from genetically unstable plants. Colloidal silver does not work by stress though, as someone else mentioned it works by blocking Ethylene, the hormone that tells them that they are supposed to make female flowers.

The ONLY way you should force a female plant to grow pollen sacks for fem seeds is using colloidal silver AFTER you have stressed the plant as much as possible to ensure her genetics are stable enough to not hermaphrodite. Unless of course you do not care and dont mind the risk of seedy buds.

 

[PJ Diaz]

My point was, if his plants are "throwing balls" after he stresses them out, the pollen from those plants is useless. As you said, the offspring from those plants would likely herm under stress as well.

however those same traits would be apparent in the offspring irregardless of how the plant was sexually reversed

This is true, that's why before using colloidal silver on a plant I always stress the hell out of them beforehand. No sense in wasting the time producing pollen for fem seeds from genetically unstable plants. Colloidal silver does not work by stress though, as someone else mentioned it works by blocking Ethylene, the hormone that tells them that they are supposed to make female flowers.

The ONLY way you should force a female plant to grow pollen sacks for fem seeds is using colloidal silver AFTER you have stressed the plant as much as possible to ensure her genetics are stable enough to not hermaphrodite. Unless of course you do not care and dont mind the risk of seedy buds.

First of all STS is a better way to reverse female plants than CS is, so not sure why you're so hung up on CS being the one and only way.

Secondly you are taking my statement out of context, and attempting to skew what I actually implied.

Look, if a plant has natural herm traits, it will pass those trait on, even if you use CS or STS to reverse it.

As far as stress is general goes, I would argue that CS applications are quite stressful to the plant, and are part of the reason it forces them to revert. I've seen some plants simply shrivel up and die with CS applications. We don't yet know enough about the OP's method to understand if this is a stress induction technique, or perhaps something more. It's certainly possible that some part of the OP's technique triggers a massive hormonal response, which induces male pollen in a genetically female plant.

Personally I'm interested in his findings. His plants don't look stressed to me. In the meantime, I plan to mix up some Silver Nitrate and Sodium Thiosulfate to make some Silver Thiosulphate (STS) to reverse my Slurricane cut. Slurricane x Wedding Cake and Slurricane S1 are in my future..

Hello baby-momma(daddy?)..

 

[twentyeight.threefive]

First of all STS is a better way to reverse female plants than CS is, so not sure why you're so hung up on CS being the one and only way.

Secondly you are taking my statement out of context, and attempting to skew what I actually implied.

Look, if a plant has natural herm traits, it will pass those trait on, even if you use CS or STS to reverse it.

As far as stress is general goes, I would argue that CS applications are quite stressful to the plant, and are part of the reason it forces them to revert. I've seen some plants simply shrivel up and die with CS applications. We don't yet know enough about the OP's method to understand if this is a stress induction technique, or perhaps something more. It's certainly possible that some part of the OP's technique triggers a massive hormonal response, which induces male pollen in a genetically female plant.

Personally I'm interested in his findings. His plants don't look stressed to me. In the meantime, I plan to mix up some Silver Nitrate and Sodium Thiosulfate to make some Silver Thiosulphate (STS) to reverse my Slurricane cut. Slurricane x Wedding Cake and Slurricane S1 are in my future..

Hello baby-momma(daddy?)..

View attachment 4824468

Insane looking flower. Beautiful.

 

[bEelzeBosS]

First of all STS is a better way to reverse female plants than CS is, so not sure why you're so hung up on CS being the one and only way.

Secondly you are taking my statement out of context, and attempting to skew what I actually implied.

Look, if a plant has natural herm traits, it will pass those trait on, even if you use CS or STS to reverse it.

As far as stress is general goes, I would argue that CS applications are quite stressful to the plant, and are part of the reason it forces them to revert. I've seen some plants simply shrivel up and die with CS applications. We don't yet know enough about the OP's method to understand if this is a stress induction technique, or perhaps something more. It's certainly possible that some part of the OP's technique triggers a massive hormonal response, which induces male pollen in a genetically female plant.

Condescending much?

I didn't take anything out of context, nor attempted to "skew" what you said. I agreed with you...if stress causes a plant to revert/herm, its offspring will way more than likely revert/herm from stress as well. And I never said anything about stress "altering genetics", not sure where you got that from. What the op did was remove the plants from their environment/light schedule, dramatically raised the humidity and introduced stagnant air for hours at a time. They reverted due to stress, its quite obvious. If you can force a plant to herm or "throw balls" by stressing it out with light schedule changes, environmental changes, pH fluctuations etc it is not a plant worth reversing. I dont know about you but if I'm going to take the time and effort to produce feminized seeds I want BOTH parents to be as genetically stable as possible.

And I'm not "hung up" on CS being the one and only way, it's just the method that's been the most successful for me and is way less toxic than STS. STS is an "easier" way, I'll give you that but not better. I also disagree with your assertion that it stresses plants into reverting. It works by passing through the plant's cells and bonding to the copper molecules inhibiting it's ability to produce ethylene. I've personally never experienced nor heard of CS causing a plant to "shrivel up and die". If that has happened to you or anyone else, the CS was likely tainted somehow/not pure silver or was not applied properly. But I have never tried using the store-bought garbage, I make my own.

 

[PJ Diaz]

Condescending much?

I didn't take anything out of context, nor attempted to "skew" what you said. I agreed with you...if stress causes a plant to revert/herm, its offspring will way more than likely revert/herm from stress as well. And I never said anything about stress "altering genetics", not sure where you got that from. What the op did was remove the plants from their environment/light schedule, dramatically raised the humidity and introduced stagnant air for hours at a time. They reverted due to stress, its quite obvious. If you can force a plant to herm or "throw balls" by stressing it out with light schedule changes, environmental changes, pH fluctuations etc it is not a plant worth reversing. I dont know about you but if I'm going to take the time and effort to produce feminized seeds I want BOTH parents to be as genetically stable as possible.

And I'm not "hung up" on CS being the one and only way, it's just the method that's been the most successful for me and is way less toxic than STS. STS is an "easier" way, I'll give you that but not better. I also disagree with your assertion that it stresses plants into reverting. It works by passing through the plant's cells and bonding to the copper molecules inhibiting it's ability to produce ethylene. I've personally never experienced nor heard of CS causing a plant to "shrivel up and die". If that has happened to you or anyone else, the CS was likely tainted somehow/not pure silver or was not applied properly. But I have never tried using the store-bought garbage, I make my own.

I'm sorry if you felt I was condescending. I've used CS myself multiple times, always made my own, never bought it. Some strains do not respond well to CS while others handle it just fine. The plants sprayed with CS always look sadder than the plants sprayed with STS in my observations. Any plants which I reverse are used for pollen only, so any concern about "toxicity" with either STS or CS is a non-concern for me. Almost all strains will throw nanners when subjected to extreme stress and/or when taken far past senescence. It's really not so much a question of IF a strain will throw nanners, but HOW MUCH you have to stress it to do so. Here's a good article which talks about different methods of reversing, including stress. As indicated it's possible that stress may incude certain hormones such as gibberellin which interacts with jasmonic acid (the same way ethylene does) to induce staminate flowers in female plants: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpls.2020.00718/full

 

[bEelzeBosS]

I'm sorry if you felt I was condescending. I've used CS myself multiple times, always made my own, never bought it. Some strains do not respond well to CS while others handle it just fine. The plants sprayed with CS always look sadder than the plants sprayed with STS in my observations. Any plants which I reverse are used for pollen only, so any concern about "toxicity" with either STS or CS is a non-concern for me. Almost all strains will throw nanners when subjected to extreme stress and/or when taken far past senescence. It's really not so much a question of IF a strain will throw nanners, but HOW MUCH you have to stress it to do so. Here's a good article which talks about different methods of reversing, including stress. As indicated it's possible that stress may incude certain hormones such as gibberellin which interacts with jasmonic acid (the same way ethylene does) to induce staminate flowers in female plants: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpls.2020.00718/full

"Such stress factors could affect internal phytohormone levels, such as auxin: gibberellin ratios, which could in turn trigger hermaphroditic flower formation in marijuana plants"

I saw the word "could" in there a couple times...sounds like an unproven hypothesis to me but is interesting nonetheless.

I stress different phenos throughout the entire flower cycle before choosing one sexually stable enough for pollen using light schedule changes, humidity and heat changes, over/under watering, and overdosing nitrogen. I haven't specifically tried sealing them up in a trash can for 3 days but I'd be willing to bet my house that my stable phenos wouldn't revert or throw nanners if I did. Maybe I'll grow one in a solo cup and try it soon for shits and giggles

What I know for sure is how CS works, and pollen created with CS (or STS for that matter) from a tested plant is a safe and proven method. Putting your healthy plants in a trash can for three days and hoping the pollen from the sacs that result isn't going to produce herm-sensitive plants is risky to say the least, and in my opinion stress-induced hermaphroditism for collecting pollen is an unnecessary risk to take. Maybe I'm pickier about stable genetics than most, but to each their own.

 

[Mr in'n'out]

Wow, a lot of advice and competing opinions here. From what I've been reading, no matter which way that male and hermie flowers are formed on a stable feminized strain, viable pollen will carry only XX genetics. The left is left open for debate. Here is the best article I could find on the topic. Thanks for the great read though guys. I'll let you know what happens when I turn the new generation of seed back to 12/12. I might have to create a grow journal.

Feminized Seeds: What they are and the top methods used to produce them — Ed Rosenthal

Feminized seeds are not as mysterious or weird as they might seem.

www.edrosenthal.com

.

 

[xtsho]

Wow, a lot of advice and competing opinions here. From what I've been reading, no matter which way that male and hermie flowers are formed on a stable feminized strain, viable pollen will carry only XX genetics. The left is left open for debate. Here is the best article I could find on the topic. Thanks for the great read though guys. I'll let you know what happens when I turn the new generation of seed back to 12/12. I might have to create a grow journal.

Feminized Seeds: What they are and the top methods used to produce them — Ed Rosenthal

Feminized seeds are not as mysterious or weird as they might seem.

www.edrosenthal.com

.

From the article you posted:

"Feminized seeds are produced by inducing a normal female, not a hermaphrodite, to grow male flowers with viable pollen.

"Plants under chemical influence grow viable male flowers, even though the plant is still a female with two X chromosomes, the pollen has only female chromosomes."

Laboratories And Commercial Seed Producers Use Three Chemicals To Induce Male Flowers In Female Plants: Gibberellic Acid, Silver Nitrate, And Silver Thiosulfate

They each inhibit the plant’s production of ethylene, a hormone that promotes female flowering. Without ethylene, female flower production is reduced or stopped."

You did not reverse a plant to produce only male flowers. Your plant has both male and female flowers which is a hermaphrodite. While some of the seeds will be female the plant was not reversed to stop ethylene production and you will likely end up with a mix of both male and female plants from the seeds just as you would from a plant pollinated by any other hermaphrodite.

But if you're not convinced grow out a sample size of at least ten plants. Some of those will be male.

 

[Mr in'n'out]

From the article you posted:

"Feminized seeds are produced by inducing a normal female, not a hermaphrodite, to grow male flowers with viable pollen.

"Plants under chemical influence grow viable male flowers, even though the plant is still a female with two X chromosomes, the pollen has only female chromosomes."

Laboratories And Commercial Seed Producers Use Three Chemicals To Induce Male Flowers In Female Plants: Gibberellic Acid, Silver Nitrate, And Silver Thiosulfate

They each inhibit the plant’s production of ethylene, a hormone that promotes female flowering. Without ethylene, female flower production is reduced or stopped."

You did not reverse a plant to produce only male flowers. Your plant has both male and female flowers which is a hermaphrodite. While some of the seeds will be female the plant was not reversed to stop ethylene production and you will likely end up with a mix of both male and female plants from the seeds just as you would from a plant pollinated by any other hermaphrodite.

But if you're not convinced grow out a sample size of at least ten plants. Some of those will be male.

As I said, I'll be growing out a sample and posting the results. You've only taken a snippet of the article.
Just because seed banks use the methods outlined above doesn't mean other methods don't work.
Think about it. Females contain two X chromosomes. It's the male plant that carries an X and a Y to determine the sex of the offspring. Like humans and most living organisms on the planet. All female cannabis plants have the capability to throw male/hermaphrodite flowers when threatened. But they still only have the capability of generating an XX chromosome to pass onto their offspring...
People act as if hermaphrodite is a dirty word. Not always. It's a self defense mechanism to reproduce.
But this is a matter of debate. One that we are not going to solved on this post.

 

[PJ Diaz]

As I said, I'll be growing out a sample and posting the results. You've only taken a snippet of the article.
Just because seed banks use the methods outlined above doesn't mean other methods don't work.
Think about it. Females contain two X chromosomes. It's the male plant that carries an X and a Y to determine the sex of the offspring. Like humans and most living organisms on the planet. All female cannabis plants have the capability to throw male/hermaphrodite flowers when threatened. But they still only have the capability of generating an XX chromosome to pass onto their offspring...
People act as if hermaphrodite is a dirty word. Not always. It's a self defense mechanism to reproduce.
But this is a matter of debate. One that we are not going to solved on this post.

Great points. There's some real smart people in this thread who seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the X/Y chromosomal relationship. The reality is that mosaicism (hermaphroditic) tenancies in plants have more to do with genetic mutations, and the tendency for these mutations to be passed on to future offspring is entirely separate from the DNA sequence which determines an individual's gender.

This is a good short read on some aspects: https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.es.26.110195.002231

 

[Mr in'n'out]

Great points. There's some real smart people in this thread who seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the X/Y chromosomal relationship. The reality is that mosaicism (hermaphroditic) tenancies in plants have more to do with genetic mutations, and the tendency for these mutations to be passed on to future offspring is entirely separate from the DNA sequence which determines an individual's gender.

This is a good short read on some aspects: https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.es.26.110195.002231

That is an interesting read. But what are the chances of a mutation occuring only one generation from a stable line? I must admit, that short read took me ten minutes and hurt my head. You obviously know your science better than I. I'm a hands on kind of bloke and I generally learn my lessons the hard way (stubborn as a mule at times), so I'll have to conduct my own experiments and collapse my own 'hypothesis'.
It seems that there are contradictions in the many reports available online, as there is in every field of science.
But this report is the most convincing thus far.
Thanks for the read PJ Diaz.

P.s. I always hated biology and chemistry at school. That's why I left and became a butcher...

 

[PJ Diaz]

That is an interesting read. But what are the chances of a mutation occuring only one generation from a stable line? I must admit, that short read took me ten minutes and hurt my head. You obviously know your science better than I. I'm a hands on kind of bloke and I generally learn my lessons the hard way (stubborn as a mule at times), so I'll have to conduct my own experiments and collapse my own 'hypothesis'.
It seems that there are contradictions in the many reports available online, as there is in every field of science.
But this report is the most convincing thus far.
Thanks for the read PJ Diaz.

P.s. I always hated biology and chemistry at school. That's why I left and became a butcher...

Genetic mutations are actually extremely common, and are the main reason that "identical twins" exhibit differences, despite the fact that they share an identically common DNA. This is somewhat of a new discovery, as it was previously assumed that the differences had more to do with environmental difference impacts on the presupposed individuals.

Here's a recent study on this phenomenon: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41588-020-00755-1

Or the more friendly coffee-table version: https://www.sciencenews.org/article/some-identical-twins-dont-have-identical-dna-genetics

 

[Wazzy]

I have found that some light stress later in flower can usually get the plants to throw nanners. Let them develop and make seeds. I have done this a few times now. It's been hard to get seeds from the top breeders during this pandemic so we are kinda forced to make our own from our favorite strains.
made seeds with this 3 blue kings from Humboldt seeds.


The 2 on the right are from those seeds. And the 2 on the left are from other strains done the same way.

 

[Mr in'n'out]

An update on the feminized seed I created without colloidal silver treatment (by keeping the plants in an airtight container for the 12 hour dark period which seemingly reversed the sex). A large garbage bin does the trick. I've grown 35 of the seed to maturity and not a single hermie thrown, and zero pollination. Some of the girls were grown under rather stressful conditions and grew lovely sensimilla flowers. As far as I can work out, plants will not change their genetics when self pollinated under stress. But I'm sure I'll still have a few of you question the validity of my experiment. The results suggest that colloidal silver is not needed to create feminized seed. I believe all methods of reversal are just stress inducing agents, shocking a plant to reproduce. Hermaphrodite's are a totally different story.

 

[Mr in'n'out]

I have found that some light stress later in flower can usually get the plants to throw nanners. Let them develop and make seeds. I have done this a few times now. It's been hard to get seeds from the top breeders during this pandemic so we are kinda forced to make our own from our favorite strains.
View attachment 4927353made seeds with this 3 blue kings from Humboldt seeds.

View attachment 4927354
The 2 on the right are from those seeds. And the 2 on the left are from other strains done the same way.

They look great man. And you've made the most of the space you've got. Nice work.

 

[Mr in'n'out]

The idea is to get balls on only the branches you select, if the balls grow everywhere then you just ruined a good plant.

Well Bernie, the plant that I "ruined" created a few of hundred feminized seeds. I've trialed 35 so far and they are all solid sensimilla females, just like their mother that I apparently "ruined". Not a sign of hermie, or a single seed. Some of you so called "growers" must be getting your tips from Wikipedia. How about you start experimenting and learn by trial and error, like I have been for the past 30 years without ruining a single crop. Go back to school Bernie.

 

[Boreal Curing]

Ok. I didn't read the whole thread, but I have to correct assumptions I see repeated. I intend no disrespect.

Bananas are called bananas because they grow within flowers. The density of the calyxes force the balls into the shape of bananas.

For my personal use, I love the female pollen, but would never sell hermie seeds. But there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

There are 3 ways to get a girl to blow pollen. Stress (what you've done), CS or STS (blocking Ethylene), and finally Rodelization whick is a plants last ditch effort of spreading its dna to the next generation.

When a plant is near death, if it hasn't been pollinated, with the survival of the species in mind, it'll blow pollen in the hopes that there are late females around to pollinate.

I grow a lot outdoor and when I see a beautiful keeper I only harvest the big buds and leave popcorn on the plant. Especially lower branches with small buds on the tips. Then I wait and check every few days. It's a hunt and time consuming, but I love being out anyway. Every once in a while, I hit the jackpot and find balls on a leftover girl. I haven't it carefully because there isn't much. Sometimes I only get 6 pollen sacs, sometimes a little more. But that shit is gold.



I want to add one more thing.
You can increase the number of females seeds, in a batch of regular seeds by putting the seeds in an air tight container and, get this... Putting in banana and apple peelings in with the seeds. It's important that the seeds don't touch the peelings. The ethylene off gassing from the fruit affect the seeds. I was told that by an old timer and did read it once, but I never tried it.

Peace.

 

[xtsho]

Ok. I didn't read the whole thread, but I have to correct assumptions I see repeated. I intend no disrespect.

Bananas are called bananas because they grow within flowers. The density of the calyxes force the balls into the shape of bananas.

Really? Bananas are formed by pressure from calyxes?

What caused these ones to form in the shape they are? They're growing that way on their own.

 

[xtsho]

What people call bananas/nanners are anthers.

Frontiers | Hermaphroditism in Marijuana (Cannabis sativa L.) Inflorescences – Impact on Floral Morphology, Seed Formation, Progeny Sex Ratios, and Genetic Variation

Cannabis sativa L. (hemp, marijuana) produces male and female inflorescences on different plants (dioecious) and therefore the plants are obligatory out-cros...

www.frontiersin.org