Why do libertarians support Republicans?

[cannabineer]

I think then we could conclude that they are in fact even less the same than say.. pre-2012. If you want to be a racist and republican, you can just be a Republican today. Since libertarians hold views that mesh with both sides of the two party system it is easy to say they are not the same as either one, and yet without a clear definition of what is a libertarian (besides the official platform that many libertarians must not fully support as they aren't registered for the party and would prefer to stay 'independent') the broad strokes to say they are one and the same is not applicable.

While I thank you for the new information,
it does not help me a great deal. I think I’ve made a good case that the three core planks I’ve identified do not pass the reality test.
Unless you can show me that these aren’t actually at the foundation of libertarian ideology.

Since the three (small government, state autonomy, unregulated big business) actively militate (as history continues to show) against the welfare and privileges of the individual, I continue to contend that libertarianism is ultimately the sales pitch of autocrats. I would prefer to believe that the Republic is founded on more liberal, egalitarian principles.

 

[Fogdog]

"Lobbyists from big corporations WRITE some of the bills that Republican Congressmen submit. When they aren't writing it, they are suggesting changes to benefit their big corporate clients. Who do you think is behind Republican efforts to fight bills addressing climate change? Ever hear of Exxon?"

YOU SAID THAT

"Yep, that's my read of it too.

By his logic it's consistent. Exon SHOULD write the laws. Anything else is government interference. Regarding culture wars, government has no business interfering with acts of racism or protecting vulnerable minorities. There shouldn't be public schools anyway, so, Don't say Gay is a big don't care."

AND SAID THAT.


I don't see where we are disagreeing. That is exactly what I stated. Republicans want tax cuts for the rich, and their big businesses (Exon, Big Tobacco, NRA, etc) to be left alone so they can make money, or better stated, keep their money, as much of it as they can.

You seem intent on disagreeing so I'm going to call you a purple banana from the planet Pluto! You've got four arms, I know this because I was there when you were born from your father's mouth. Nothing can be more true!

I SAID THAT.

***I agreed with you that republicans are exon, etc and that's how they work. NOT that I agree with them.***

If your complaint is that I was mistaken about you agreeing with what you said, I'll own that mistake. I don't know how I would have known that, so not apologizing. You did a fine job of representing libertarians. I started this post thinking libertarians would be nuts to support Republicans and am now convinced that libertarians are just Republicans who are embarrassed to be called a Republican but hold the same policies.

Still though, kudos for doing a good job of representing a group you don't agree with . I was asking because I didn't understand why libertarians support Republicans and now understand. Thanks for that.

 

[Dryxi]

While I thank you for the new information,
it does not help me a great deal. I think I’ve made a good case that the three core planks I’ve identified do not pass the reality test.
Unless you can show me that these aren’t actually at the foundation of libertarian ideology.

Since the three (small government, state autonomy, unregulated big business) actively militate (as history continues to show) against the welfare and privileges of the individual, I continue to contend that libertarianism is ultimately the sales pitch of autocrats. I would prefer to believe that the Republic is founded on more liberal, egalitarian principles.

Just to play your game, I guess I will answer. But here we are, actually moving the posts. Originally your response was to equate Republicans and Libertarians as the same in a subjective and bias way that misrepresented what the party's views were. Here I will attempt to answer your question of, actually I don't know. We weren't ever debating the foundations of Libertarianism, or how they can be evil and determintal.

While it is true that the principles of small government, state autonomy, and unregulated big business are central to libertarianism, it is important to understand that these principles are not inherently problematic. The idea behind small government is to minimize the role of the state in people's lives and to promote individual freedom and autonomy. The belief in state autonomy is based on the idea that states should have the power to make decisions that are best for their own citizens, rather than having those decisions made by a distant central government. Unregulated big business is often seen as a way to promote competition and innovation, which can lead to better products and services for consumers.

However, it is also true that these principles can be misused or applied in ways that harm individuals or groups. For example, the lack of regulation in big business can lead to monopolies, price fixing, and other practices that harm consumers. Similarly, the idea of state autonomy can be used to justify discriminatory policies or to resist efforts to address national problems such as climate change or inequality.

Ultimately, the key to understanding the impact of libertarianism is to look at the specifics of each situation and to assess the effects of these principles on the well-being of individuals and society as a whole. While it is possible to point to instances where libertarianism has not lived up to its promises, it is important to avoid making blanket statements or oversimplifications about an entire political ideology.... which has been your motivation since the beginning. Try taking a more holistic view of the world, rather than oversimplification of complex issues and views. It's a little harder than... you know, not.

 

[HGCC]

Libertarian is just so vague, that idea encompasses everything from the far right to the far left. In practice, the far right has dominated the ideology for as long as I can recall. The far left version generally get excluded from the broad group and are considered their own thing, anarchists.

 

[Fogdog]

This. The simple definitions being supplied in this thread attempt to say libertarians and republicans are the same, and yet they are not. As you said, there is not a simple definition of what a libertarian actually is. There is a very small sample of people that actually register as a libertarian and so we have no idea how many people who claim they are one, actually believe in the all the facets of libertarianism. Regardless of the fact that some democrats consider themselves libertarians as well as republicans, with a larger subset considering themselves simply independent.


No from square 1 you attempted to show how libertarians and republicans stem from the same 'unholy trinity', in a bias and subjective fashion. I am not attempting to convince you of libertarian ideology or defend the views. Search out other resources if you want someone to convince you.

"there is not a simple definition of what a libertarian actually is". Yet, people say they are libertarian. Don't they know what a libertarian is? Is there something mysterious about being a libertarian that can't be revealed? A secret handshake or something like that?

Also, "democrats consider themselves libertarians as well as republicans" also "independents". You need to cite a source on that. libertarians are hard right regarding property and capital. For example, most support the idea of abolishing Medicare and Social Security. Or the idea of de-regulating markets. Also breaking unions. Those are not policies Democrats support. Republicans, though? Yes, some say that.

 

[cannabineer]

Just to play your game, I guess I will answer. But here we are, actually moving the posts. Originally your response was to equate Republicans and Libertarians as the same in a subjective and bias way that misrepresented what the party's views were. Here I will attempt to answer your question of, actually I don't know. We weren't ever debating the foundations of Libertarianism, or how they can be evil and determintal.

While it is true that the principles of small government, state autonomy, and unregulated big business are central to libertarianism, it is important to understand that these principles are not inherently problematic. The idea behind small government is to minimize the role of the state in people's lives and to promote individual freedom and autonomy. The belief in state autonomy is based on the idea that states should have the power to make decisions that are best for their own citizens, rather than having those decisions made by a distant central government. Unregulated big business is often seen as a way to promote competition and innovation, which can lead to better products and services for consumers.

However, it is also true that these principles can be misused or applied in ways that harm individuals or groups. For example, the lack of regulation in big business can lead to monopolies, price fixing, and other practices that harm consumers. Similarly, the idea of state autonomy can be used to justify discriminatory policies or to resist efforts to address national problems such as climate change or inequality.

Ultimately, the key to understanding the impact of libertarianism is to look at the specifics of each situation and to assess the effects of these principles on the well-being of individuals and society as a whole. While it is possible to point to instances where libertarianism has not lived up to its promises, it is important to avoid making blanket statements or oversimplifications about an entire political ideology.... which has been your motivation since the beginning. Try taking a more holistic view of the world, rather than oversimplification of complex issues and views. It's a little harder than... you know, not.

The bolded is what I have shown not to be the case. The underlined show how you are simply reciting broken ideas and not substantiating them. I wanted to avoid this by saying sound principles at the start of our conversation.

As for moving the goalposts, that is on you, as a careful read of my posts will make clear.

This has become recursive. Enjoy the rest of your day.

 

[Fogdog]

Libertarian is just so vague, that idea encompasses everything from the far right to the far left. In practice, the far right has dominated the ideology for as long as I can recall. The far left version generally get excluded from the broad group and are considered their own thing, anarchists.

To me, eliminating Medicare and Social Security is a sharp dividing line between Republicans and their powerless cousins, libertarians. There are others, such as eliminating labor laws and the right to collective bargaining.

 

[Fogdog]

Just to play your game, I guess I will answer. But here we are, actually moving the posts. Originally your response was to equate Republicans and Libertarians as the same in a subjective and bias way that misrepresented what the party's views were. Here I will attempt to answer your question of, actually I don't know. We weren't ever debating the foundations of Libertarianism, or how they can be evil and determintal.

While it is true that the principles of small government, state autonomy, and unregulated big business are central to libertarianism, it is important to understand that these principles are not inherently problematic. The idea behind small government is to minimize the role of the state in people's lives and to promote individual freedom and autonomy. The belief in state autonomy is based on the idea that states should have the power to make decisions that are best for their own citizens, rather than having those decisions made by a distant central government. Unregulated big business is often seen as a way to promote competition and innovation, which can lead to better products and services for consumers.

However, it is also true that these principles can be misused or applied in ways that harm individuals or groups. For example, the lack of regulation in big business can lead to monopolies, price fixing, and other practices that harm consumers. Similarly, the idea of state autonomy can be used to justify discriminatory policies or to resist efforts to address national problems such as climate change or inequality.

Ultimately, the key to understanding the impact of libertarianism is to look at the specifics of each situation and to assess the effects of these principles on the well-being of individuals and society as a whole. While it is possible to point to instances where libertarianism has not lived up to its promises, it is important to avoid making blanket statements or oversimplifications about an entire political ideology.... which has been your motivation since the beginning. Try taking a more holistic view of the world, rather than oversimplification of complex issues and views. It's a little harder than... you know, not.

holy crap. "While it is true, however it is also true, look at the specifics".

How about this. What policy does DeSantis support that is in opposition to what libertarians support? Please cite written policy statements. Also provide at least one link. Your posts are vague and confusing.

 

[HGCC]

To me, eliminating Medicare and Social Security is a sharp dividing line between Republicans and their powerless cousins, libertarians. There are others, such as eliminating labor laws and the right to collective bargaining.

I thought that was their strong similarity. Both want to do those things. Maybe for different reasons, but they wind up at the same spot.

 

[Dryxi]

So all the blanket statements only refer to the far edges of the group, and while they are blanket and encompass the entire political group, we should automatically assume we are only talking about the worst people in the group. Not biased at all. The republicans are totally correct when they equate all democrats as the far far left without regards to the large majority of them who are actually more moderate? The result is this cycle of @cannabineer bias that is in the majority of the posts in this thread. Damn propaganda, it affects us all.

To me, eliminating Medicare and Social Security is a sharp dividing line between Republicans and their powerless cousins, libertarians. There are others, such as eliminating labor laws and the right to collective bargaining.

And all democrats favor the abolition of private property or defunding of the police.

holy crap. "While it is true, however it is also true, look at the specifics".

How about this. What policy does DeSantis support that is different from what libertarians support? Please cite written policy statements. Also provide at least one link. Your posts are vague and confusing.

I am not a libertarian spokesperson, nor am I involved in libertarian politics. I linked the libertarian think tank Cato earlier that graded Ron DeSantis 58/100 points on fiscal policy. If that doesn't give at least one example, I would assume you didn't view it. A 58/100 doesn't seem very supportive does it? (AND to tell the truth I didn't read it either as I didn't need to know the information it held or cared enough to search for it besides to provide you an example where they might disagree and not be so supportive of DeSantis as you seem inclined to believe). If you read it, let me know what it says.

 

[Fogdog]

So all the blanket statements only refer to the far edges of the group, and while they are blanket and encompass the entire political group, we should automatically assume we are only talking about the worst people in the group. Not biased at all. The republicans are totally correct when they equate all democrats as the far far left without regards to the large majority of them who are actually more moderate? The result is this cycle of @cannabineer bias that is in the majority of the posts in this thread. Damn propaganda, it affects us all.


And all democrats favor the abolition of private property or defunding of the police.


I am not a libertarian spokesperson, nor am I involved in libertarian politics. I linked the libertarian think tank Cato earlier that graded Ron DeSantis 58/100 points on fiscal policy. If that doesn't give at least one example, I would assume you didn't view it. A 58/100 doesn't seem very supportive does it? (AND to tell the truth I didn't read it either as I didn't need to know the information it held or cared enough to search for it besides to provide you an example where they might disagree and not be so supportive of DeSantis as you seem inclined to believe). If you read it, let me know what it says.

A C- is a passing grade.

"And all democrats favor the abolition of private property or defunding of the police."

That is what a lot of Republicans say. Just like 151 Republican Congressmen signed onto a plan to cut Social Security and Medicare benefits in order to cap the deficit. And where does that stop? Next year, cut benefits some more?

Since you say you aren't libertarian, why are you defending them so vigorously?

 

[cannabineer]

Damn propaganda, it affects us all.

And all democrats favor the abolition of private property or defunding of the police.

wow, who told you the bolded? It is sooo not true.

 

[Dryxi]

"there is not a simple definition of what a libertarian actually is". Yet, people say they are libertarian. Don't they know what a libertarian is? Is there something mysterious about being a libertarian that can't be revealed? A secret handshake or something like that?

Also, "democrats consider themselves libertarians as well as republicans" also "independents". You need to cite a source on that.

https://reason.com/2015/04/30/19-of-americans-self-identify-as-liberta/

A C- is a passing grade.

"And all democrats favor the abolition of private property or defunding of the police."

That is what a lot of Republicans say. Just like 151 Republican Congressmen signed onto a plan to cut Social Security and Medicare benefits in order to cap the deficit. And where does that stop? Next year, cut benefits some more?

Since you say you aren't libertarian, why are you defending them so vigorously?

Because you are arguing. And a C- is a passing grade, just not a good one. I am sure total agreement = C-!

wow, who told you the bolded? It is sooo not true.

Exactly.

 

[PadawanWarrior]

So all the blanket statements only refer to the far edges of the group, and while they are blanket and encompass the entire political group, we should automatically assume we are only talking about the worst people in the group. Not biased at all. The republicans are totally correct when they equate all democrats as the far far left without regards to the large majority of them who are actually more moderate? The result is this cycle of @cannabineer bias that is in the majority of the posts in this thread. Damn propaganda, it affects us all.

My view towards Democrats certainly hasn't gotten any better watching the posts in this section. It is at least nice to see there is still a little bit of rationality with some. I think it's just the loudest ones who give the others a bad name. Just as all Republicans or people who once might have voted for Trump are not all a bunch of racist magats.

 

[cannabineer]

Exactly.

you cannot have it both ways, j/s

 

[cannabineer]

W

My view towards Democrats certainly hasn't gotten any better watching the posts in this section. It is at least nice to see there is still a little bit of rationality with some. I think it's just the loudest ones who give the others a bad name. Just as all Republicans or people who once might have voted for Trump are not all a bunch of racist magats.

sorry kid; having ever voted for agent orange is confirmation of being either mean or a few fries short of a Happymeal.

 

[Dryxi]

you cannot have it both ways, j/s

Have what both ways LOL if you follow the quote you used of mine, it was sarcasim playing off what I replied to HCGC about bias and blanket statements.

 

[cannabineer]

Have what both ways LOL if you follow the quote you used of mine, it was sarcasim playing off what I replied to HCGC about bias and blanket statements.

No; face value is consistent with the rest of the Credo. No sale.

Are you suggesting that libertarians favor the abolition of private property and the defunding of police? That’s the only other way this might reckon out.

 

[Dryxi]

No; face value is consistent with the rest of the Credo. No sale.

Are you suggesting that libertarians favor the abolition of private property and the defunding of police? That’s the only other way this might reckon out.

What weird shape are we going in? Are you suggesting all democrats support the abolition of private property and defunding the police?

 

[cannabineer]

What weird shape are we going in? Are you suggesting all democrats support the abolition of private property and defunding the police?

Instead of answering a question with a question (bad form), perhaps select one of the possibilities. You are contradicting yourself; never an auspicious development.