War

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
It's Putin's war. Don't hate on the people who are just trying to survive. That's all I was trying to say. I'm sorry I made it complicated by suggesting that the same thing was happening here until the US voter wised up and stopped it. I don't think the US voter is any better of a person for it but probably was better informed. Also we had protests but not the same kind of police actions. Though it was touch and go.

But it's Putin's war.
I don't hate on them, but recognize that there are cultural factors that support his enterprise and a general attitude of cultural superiority and even destiny. Vlad was in charge and made the call, but there was a lot of popular support for an imperialist invasion of a liberal democracy. It's not just Putin, he has a rubberstamp Duma and party who supported the idea too. Ya can't just up and invade another country these days, cultural and political conditions have to be favorable in your own country too or you will have internal trouble. Vlad was swimming in a sea of this imperialist bullshit and all his buddies were of a like mind, as are many in Russia.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
I don't hate on them, but recognize that there are cultural factors that support his enterprise and a general attitude of cultural superiority and even destiny. Vlad was in charge and made the call, but there was a lot of popular support for an imperialist invasion of a liberal democracy. It's not just Putin, he has a rubberstamp Duma and party who supported the idea too. Ya can't just up and invade another country these days, cultural and political conditions have to be favorable in your own country too or you will have internal trouble. Vlad was swimming in a sea of this imperialist bullshit and all his buddies were of a like mind, as are many in Russia.
Sorry man.

I don't hate on them but

Vlad was in charge but

Just saying, it's bad enough over there without the US demonizing an entire people. Same thing happens when China comes up. The people are blamed. Maybe it would be fair if those Russia and China were healthy democracies instead of entrenched autocracies. So, I'll just fix your post for you because I'm pretty sure this is what you meant:

I don't hate on them, Vlad was in charge. Duma and party who supported the idea too
 

BudmanTX

Well-Known Member
tbh.....i really feel for the regular russian citizen....to be demonized, and used in this capacity...buy a guy who wants to be Fuher #2 and by a set of actors who want the ol USSR back......i am glad however that the ones who wanted to get out while they could so they couldn't be called up and know the bs......got out.....those are the people i would hope that one day, one day...they would rise up and say "i've had enough, this has gotta stop"
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Sorry man.

I don't hate on them but

Vlad was in charge but

Just saying, it's bad enough over there without the US demonizing an entire people. Same thing happens when China comes up. The people are blamed. Maybe it would be fair if those Russia and China were healthy democracies instead of entrenched autocracies. So, I'll just fix your post for you because I'm pretty sure this is what you meant:
All I'm saying is he played into a widespread cultural theme in Russia, as Trump played to a certain segment of the American population to gain power. Russia is not a liberal democracy, or even a democracy and collective responsibility is not in the cards as is collective punishment, but there will be collective punishment none the less, that is what sanctions are.
 

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
tbh.....i really feel for the regular russian citizen....to be demonized, and used in this capacity...buy a guy who wants to be Fuher #2 and by a set of actors who want the ol USSR back......i am glad however that the ones who wanted to get out while they could so they couldn't be called up and know the bs......got out.....those are the people i would hope that one day, one day...they would rise up and say "i've had enough, this has gotta stop"
But they won't...the best and brightest of the lot bailed the fuck out while the bailing was good.
What does that leave them to work with? Not much.
 

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
i agree, and those are the ones being used as cannon fodder for der fuher#2 and his war machine
when i hear of the atrocities, the war crimes, even the petty thefts...i just have no sympathy left for the russians.
what little sympathy i have within me is all currently being reserved for the Ukrainians who have lost family and friends to the russians.
For those who lost family and friends in the earthquake, for those in Syria that aren't going to get any aid because the military coup perpetrators there won't let any through to them. To those in New Zealand and Australia dealing with typhoon flooding...
but to russia? they used up what little i had for them long ago.
 

doughper

Well-Known Member
Close to 200,000 Russian troops have been killed or wounded in the war in Ukraine,
I just found a story dated, 10 November 2022, saying 100k dead on each side:
Code:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63580372
This is bloody. The same story reads that USSR lost 15k in Afghanistan, over a period of 8 years?
 
Last edited:

doughper

Well-Known Member
When this is all over, we are going to see a glut of arms on the black market marked "made in the USA", some of which China will pay for and send to the Taliban
During the USSR invasion of Afghan, the USA's CIA sought to give stinger missiles to the Afghans. The one Afghan leader who refused to take them from the corrupt, infidel-dog west, was none other than Bin Laden, who finally relented and accepted the stingers, resulting in Soviet chopper being shot out of the sky and the subsequent Soviet retreat. Need I say more...
 

printer

Well-Known Member
from WSJ
MOSCOW—Close to 200,000 Russian troops have been killed or wounded in the war in Ukraine, according to estimates from U.S. and European officials, a toll that is likely to continue to rise as the Kremlin readies a fresh offensive in the coming weeks.
The U.S. military, which keeps rough estimates on Russian casualties in Ukraine, puts the figure for wounded and dead at roughly 180,000, though officials stressed such figures aren’t precise, a U.S. defense official said.
from November 9th, 2022
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/more-than-100000-russian-military-casualties-ukraine-top-us-general-2022-11-10/
from 6 days ago
https://www.newsweek.com/russian-army-burning-their-own-dead-hide-massive-losses-ukraine-says-1780266
from 5 days ago (not familiar with this site)
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/counting-the-dead-in-ukraine/
Sources other than the Ukrainians say the the russians have lost close to 200k. The typical ratio of wounded to dead is 3/1. if that is holding true, the russians have had at least 50K deaths
I have a little more faith in the Ukrainian tally, they say losses, not deaths.

 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
All I'm saying is he played into a widespread cultural theme in Russia, as Trump played to a certain segment of the American population to gain power. Russia is not a liberal democracy, or even a democracy and collective responsibility is not in the cards as is collective punishment, but there will be collective punishment none the less, that is what sanctions are.
Sanctions were written to avoid the worst effects on the populace. I've seen reports claiming sanctions failed because Russia's GDP was down by "only 3.5%". That is not a failure, that is achieving a stated objective. Going into this, I recall Jen Psaki saying at a press conference that one of the objectives was to harm Russia's ability to wage war, end the oligarchs' ability to transfer their dirty money into western economies and take away access to Western high tech tools and equipment.


The sanctions are intended to further Russia’s economic, financial and technological “isolation” from the rest of the world as a penalty for its attacks on civilians in Ukraine, Psaki said. That isolation is a key aspect of the U.S. strategy, which is premised on the idea that Russia will ultimately lack the resources and equipment to keep fighting a prolonged war in Ukraine.

Still, almost all of the EU has refrained from an outright ban on Russian oil and natural gas that would likely crush the Russian economy. The U.S. has banned fossil fuels from Russia, while Lithuania blocked natural gas from that country on Saturday, becoming the first of the 27-member EU to do so. The EU executive branch on Tuesday proposed a ban on Russian coal, while Germany’s government intends to end its use of Russian natural gas over the next two years.


I don't believe in collective punishment and apparently neither does Biden or his administration. People should be punished for what they do, not just for being around the hand-grenade when it went off.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Sanctions were written to avoid the worst effects on the populace. I've seen reports claiming sanctions failed because Russia's GDP was down by "only 3.5%". That is not a failure, that is achieving a stated objective. Going into this, I recall Jen Psaki saying at a press conference that one of the objectives was to harm Russia's ability to wage war, end the oligarchs' ability to transfer their dirty money into western economies and take away access to Western high tech tools and equipment.


The sanctions are intended to further Russia’s economic, financial and technological “isolation” from the rest of the world as a penalty for its attacks on civilians in Ukraine, Psaki said. That isolation is a key aspect of the U.S. strategy, which is premised on the idea that Russia will ultimately lack the resources and equipment to keep fighting a prolonged war in Ukraine.

Still, almost all of the EU has refrained from an outright ban on Russian oil and natural gas that would likely crush the Russian economy. The U.S. has banned fossil fuels from Russia, while Lithuania blocked natural gas from that country on Saturday, becoming the first of the 27-member EU to do so. The EU executive branch on Tuesday proposed a ban on Russian coal, while Germany’s government intends to end its use of Russian natural gas over the next two years.


I don't believe in collective punishment and apparently neither does Biden or his administration. People should be punished for what they do, not just for being around the hand-grenade when it went off.
They try to target sanctions and do in this case, however the general economic sanctions are harming and gonna harm the average Russian, punish them if you will. This is at odds with UN law which forbids collective punishments, and such things are not helpful for winning the peace after winning the war. However, no forgiveness without contrition and even if the war ends, the war crimes will make sure the sanctions stay on, all Russians will bear the burden of those crimes. I don't make the rules, but that is how it will wash out, it will inconvenience the rich and powerful while killing the poor.
 

printer

Well-Known Member
losses at almost 140k.......guessing wounded would prolly be double that, then u add MIA on top.....that imo 300k possibly
The losses are killed and wounded, not the number killed.

Fact Check: Have Over 150K Ukraine Troops Been Killed in Russia Conflict?
In January 2023 Norwegian Chief of Defense Eirik Kristoffersen, speaking to Norwegian network TV2, claimed that as many as 100,000 Ukrainian soldiers had died or were wounded. He put Russian military casualties at 180,000.

A similar figure for Ukrainian troop casualties—comprising both dead and injured—was quoted by the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Mark Milley, a report by The Washington Post reported. Milley said Russian casualties were also likely over 100,000.

Jan 21.

Soaring death toll gives grim insight into Russian tactics
WASHINGTON – The number of Russian troops killed and wounded in Ukraine is approaching 200,000, a stark symbol of how badly Russian President Vladimir Putin’s invasion has gone, according to U.S. and other Western officials.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
I have a little more faith in the Ukrainian tally, they say losses, not deaths.

The key factor is medical treatment and that makes the difference between wounded and dead, the Russian medical treatment sucks and I've seen astonishing mortality rates, most are left on the battlefield to die. Ukraine on the other hand ships severely wounded to western Europe and has excellent battlefield medical aid and lots of reports of medics being killed. So for every 100K Russian casualties 80% die and say 40% or less of Ukrainians. It is the lack of medical care starting with unit cohesion and caring about the other guy enough to help him and having a first aid kit and training to do it that makes the difference between the dead and wounded casualties, Russians are dying from relatively minor wounds by western standards.

Aside from that, there are the multitude of other military factors that lead me to believe the Russian numbers of dead are much higher than the Ukrainians. I think the kill ratio is far in excess of 3:1 in favor of the Ukrainians.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member

'Staggering' number of Russian troops killed | General Petraeus

22,407 views Premiered 101 minutes ago
On the topic of the war in Ukraine, General David Petraeus, Former Director of the CIA and Senior US Army Commander, described the Russian death toll as "staggering":

"The UK Ministry of Defence estimated the casualties and the losses in the past week were over 850 per day, which is just staggering. The worst month of the surge in Iraq, we lost 143 coalition men and women and we thought that was for a moment once. So the idea of many, many times that just in a single day, is just again, staggering. To me, to someone who wrote letters of condolence to American's mothers and fathers almost every night that I was privileged to be the commander during the surge in Iraq, the idea of losing over 850 soldiers in a single day is just mind boggling. Really, it's horrific. It is staggering."

General David Petraeus told Carole Walker on Times Radio the west must do everything possible to help Ukraine hold off a Russian offensive:

"The Russians still think that they can out suffer the Ukrainians, the Europeans, and the Americans. And we need to prove them wrong. We need to do everything we can to enable the Ukrainians to hold off this particular offensive, and then to be able in several months to employ the Western tanks and fighting vehicles to conduct their counter offensive, probably in the May - June time frame, to retake if not all that Russia has taken over the course of the last year and perhaps beyond."

The Former Director of the CIA and Senior US Army Commander said Ukraine will inevitably need Western fighter bombers:

"We've got to get to them as quickly as possible and enable the training as quickly as possible on the western tanks, fighting vehicles, wheeled armored, advanced systems, the medium range under 50 kilometer range precision munitions that we're providing for the high mobility until the rocket system, etc. That's to enable the Ukrainian offensive that we anticipate in the May - June timeframe. And then, in the long term, we've got to start thinking now and we are to be fair again, this is a topic of discussion of the ministers, that we are on the road of, inevitable that Ukraine has to go for Western fighter bombers."

"We should recognise the inevitability again, this has to happen. There's no alternative, there aren't any more MiG 29s on the market that we can provide to Ukraine. We need to make that decision to help them down that road, start by training again, pilots and mechanics in particular."

General David Petraeus spoke of the importance of the UK's military on Times Radio, and said the reduction of its capabilities must be addressed:

"The Minister of Defence has raised a very important point. And I think we all should be concerned, given especially that the partnership between the US and the UK military has a component of the special relationship. Having been privileged to command five combat commands over the course of my general answer time alone, the military that was always the most important beyond the US was that of the UK. So it is very significant that the capabilities have been reduced as the Minister has forthrightly noted. And I think it's something that the government obviously has to recognise and address."

On the topic of the Chinese weather balloon shot down over the US, the Former Director of the CIA and Senior US Army Commander said balloons in the sky are not uncommon:

"I think we're discovering that there are vastly more balloons in the sky than we ever realised. The weather services here in the United States launch hundreds, I'm told, as do many others. So I think if nothing else, we're going to get a much better audit of what is floating in the sky. But of course, the first balloon was so massive, so large, I mean, very easily visible to the naked eye, and, frankly, therefore, so blatant, and it really calls into question the process of decision making in China, for carrying out what clearly is a very sensitive, exceedingly provocative and blatant activity. It really raises the question, what is the approval process?"
 

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
I have a little more faith in the Ukrainian tally, they say losses, not deaths.

What i'm gathering is that the Ukrainians tend to inflate the number of dead and wounded russians. I'm not saying that is true, but I understand why they would, to keep up morale.
i was looking for conservative numbers, hopefully there are over 100K dead russians and 3 times that wounded too badly to fight any time soon, but i wouldn't claim that without a lot of confirmation.
 
Top