Not a right

hom36rown

Well-Known Member
Now this idea, I like :-P. When wealth is attained through murder, exploitation, and conspiracy, recourse is way overdue! Let's take it back and use it for the common good as reciprocation for what was stolen from the commoners.
What murder, exploitation, and conspiracy are you talking about? Most of the super rich come from middle class families....and work their ass off to get where they are. No murder or exploitation involved in running a hedge fund, or being CEO of a company.
 

hom36rown

Well-Known Member
As for health care, is it a right? No. Would it be nice if everyone were insured? Yes. Can we, as a nation, afford it? No.
 

mrmadcow

Well-Known Member
I know the response im likely to get, but what the hell here goes. I'm English and as you know the NHS has been around for a while and not only is it the biggest single employer in the world but it is a safeguard against poor people going without healthcare. The NHS is far from perfect and far from Socialism as Americans see it. If I am in a car accident tommorrow, and need to be, I will be flown to a hospital and treated by the same Doctors that also run private practices (dispelling the myth that private is better) and will get all the drugs, rehab etc I need for free. My mother in law was diagnosed with cancer during a routine check up last year and was given a choice of treatments, drugs and hospital she wanted to go to within 3 days. My father has diabetes and gets insulin for free. I am off to the dentist next week, for free. To get this level of care in the US what would you have to pay per annum in insurance premiums?
you keep saying its free but it is paid for w/ taxes, what are you paying in taxes for a middle class person? is it over 50% of your paycheck?
no wait times?
check out this link;
18 weeks for a surgery? not heard of in america
or how about this

The median waiting time to any form of treatment was 60 days for lung cancer.
 

mrmadcow

Well-Known Member
....Where would you have been if during those 3 months you had an accident?????? .
medical treatment is not refused for lack of insurance in america.and w/out the ability to take the gamble and go w/out insurance,I would have been homeless.Had an accident happened,i would have probable lost my house anyways.
 

CrackerJax

New Member
I want the richest 1% to pay for it all. They got their wealth from exploiting the planet and workers anyway.

You mean the people that created all of the jobs you folks go to every day? Those evil people? :roll:

You think of taxes in a static way, but this is incorrect. Higher tax levels mean LESS revenue for govt. programs...not more.
 

Woomeister

Well-Known Member
you keep saying its free but it is paid for w/ taxes, what are you paying in taxes for a middle class person? is it over 50% of your paycheck?
no wait times?
check out this link;
18 weeks for a surgery? not heard of in america
or how about this

The median waiting time to any form of treatment was 60 days for lung cancer.
I dont KEEP saying anything, people earning above the higher earnings threshold (like myself) pay 40% tax. Waiting times are low-fact. 18 weeks to have a non-emergency operation is a problem??? How??? Unheard of in America??? There are 60 million people in America who wouldnt be able to get many types of operation as they have no insurance, that wouldnt happen in the UK. The median waiting time for lung cancer is 60 days, lol, where do you get that from??? You dont live here you rely on internet stories and media rubbish to come up with this!
 

Woomeister

Well-Known Member
a national insurance "contribution" is not a tax?
No because you can pay different levels at will hence 'contributions', and as I said families earning £60000 pa get it paid back at differing rates. If you earn less than £16000pa you will get it ALL back paid directly into your bank every 4 weeks.
 

Woomeister

Well-Known Member
medical treatment is not refused for lack of insurance in america.and w/out the ability to take the gamble and go w/out insurance,I would have been homeless.Had an accident happened,i would have probable lost my house anyways.
THIS WOULDNT HAPPEN IN THE UK!!! Nobody has ever lost there house due to being hospitalised...:clap:
 

CrackerJax

New Member
Despite what the British public believes, their health care is in danger of implosion. It needs to be seriously retooled, as does Canada's.... they are all going broke and services are being rationed.

it's like WW2 over there without the physical war..??!!?!
 

medicineman

New Member
Hi Med,
IMHO, health care is NOT a right.

However it is good to see you here at RIU, it has been a while since I have disagreed with you.

Shockingly I find myself in concurrence with the quote excerpted from your post.

I suspect I would disagree with you regarding the means by which to correct this lamentable situation!

Your old Pal,
Wavels:leaf:
Hey Wavels, where you been, I also have missed our banter. The site has been taken over by a bunch of right wing miscreants. You can tell by looking at my popularity line. I have cut way back in participating as it is no fun to be almost the only leftist on a right wing site. Confrontation is not as much fun as it once was. I guess I'm getting a little too old to fight with vigor and seeing a trend at this site, makes me wonder where all the lefties have gone. Where are all of them on this health care thing? rediculous. Good to see you back. Looks like this site is going your way, you will be welcomed back with open arms, peace be upon you.
 

medicineman

New Member
You mean the people that created all of the jobs you folks go to every day? Those evil people? :roll:

You think of taxes in a static way, but this is incorrect. Higher tax levels mean LESS revenue for govt. programs...not more.
All I have to say about this is:
Bush cut taxes for the rich, recession obviously ensued. The rich keep most of the tax reductions for themselves. The myth that they expand production to create more jobs was just busted by the bush 8 year tenure.
 

CrackerJax

New Member
Your astute opinion aside :lol:.... the data says otherwise. Govt. revenue goes UP when taxes goes DOWN, and conversely when taxes go up, revenue goes DOWN. And the PRODUCERS who do most of the RISK taking get pissed off and an unhappy country all the way around. It's contagious....as is pushing CLASS ENVY. The only thing worse is falling for it.
 

figtree

Active Member
nope, not a right. but dont you think its in all of our best interest "incuding our govs." to keep the citizens healthy, a sick person isnt very productive. i feel education should be looked at as well, smarter people = smarter government.
 

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
All I have to say about this is:
Bush cut taxes for the rich, recession obviously ensued. The rich keep most of the tax reductions for themselves. The myth that they expand production to create more jobs was just busted by the bush 8 year tenure.
Bush cut taxes for all taxpayers. It's a matter of record.

The tax cuts did not cause the most recent recession. Government intrusion into the marketplace did.

I've never been hired by a poor person. Not once. Not ever.

But I have worked for many affluent men and a couple of millionaires, too.

But no poor people.

Why do you suppose that is?
 

CrackerJax

New Member
Yes, but that is being done now. No society screens more or with better equipment than the USA.

The way to fix health care is to bring down the costs of the private system. You don't do that by letting the public sector take over. That's going the wrong way if you are actually trying to fix the problem.

Obamas beloved and used as an example :lol: US postal service just announced a "yearly" loss of 7 BILLION dollars, and are on track to lose another 7 BILLION dollars next year.

So what was the response of the Postmaster general? Gonna raise the price of the product and cut back on deliveries.

Is that a business model???? No, that's the govt. running a business (think health care). That's how it looks, that's how it thinks.

Now they want to have a go at your very health. Do not be fooled........
 

Woomeister

Well-Known Member
The recession was due to stupid lending policies by American bankers...'hmm you have a crap credit history, you have a poorly paid job, you want to buy a house? Do you want to borrow 100% of the house value or 125%? Then you can paint it and get a new kitchen. Ok its a deal' says the moron at the American bank.
 

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
The recession was due to stupid lending policies by American bankers...'hmm you have a crap credit history, you have a poorly paid job, you want to buy a house? Do you want to borrow 100% of the house value or 125%? Then you can paint it and get a new kitchen. Ok its a deal' says the moron at the American bank.
Sure! We'll guarantee that risky loan." said the loan officer at Fannie Mae.

"I'll bury this economy and my domestic partner will make a killing!" said Slobbering Barney (Frank).
 

Woomeister

Well-Known Member
Yes, but that is being done now. No society screens more or with better equipment than the USA.

The way to fix health care is to bring down the costs of the private system. You don't do that by letting the public sector take over. That's going the wrong way if you are actually trying to fix the problem.

Obamas beloved and used as an example :lol: US postal service just announced a "yearly" loss of 7 BILLION dollars, and are on track to lose another 7 BILLION dollars next year.

So what was the response of the Postmaster general? Gonna raise the price of the product and cut back on deliveries.

Is that a business model???? No, that's the govt. running a business (think health care). That's how it looks, that's how it thinks.

Now they want to have a go at your very health. Do not be fooled........
web.wm.edu/cwa/Pellegrino.pdf?svr=www
economics.harvard.edu/faculty/.../The American Healthcare System.pdf
Do some research CJ its amazing what your professors think!!! You are quite right about cutting costs though, the NHS has the same problem but is not the 'about to implode' disaster you portray.
 

Woomeister

Well-Known Member
DH Home
You are here: <A class=topnavblue href="http://www.performance.doh.gov.uk/cancerwaits/2008/q3/index.html">Cancer Waiting Times > England Summary Cancer Waiting Times England Summary A-Z Listing England Summary

Cancer Waiting Times - Monitoring the one month wait target from diagnosis to treatment for Breast Cancer
Breast Cancer

TrustPatients treated during the quarter by referral typeTotal number of patients treated during the quarter.% Compliance with the one month (31 days) rule.Number of patients treated during the quarter within one month (31 days) of the date of a clinical diagnosis being made by a responsible specialist.Number of patients treated during the quarter NOT treated within one month of the data of the clinical diagnosis being made by a responsible specialistGP Urgent ReferralsOther ReferralsBut treated within 38 days of the date of that same clinical diagnosisBut treated between 39 and 48 days of the date of that same clinical diagnosisBut treated between 49 and 62 days of the date of that same clinical diagnosisAnd not treated within 62 days of the date of that same clinical diagnosisEngland4,5814,5399,12099.8%9,10113321Aintree University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust21324100.0%240000Airedale NHS Trust211738100.0%380000Ashford and St Peters' Hospitals NHS Trust223961100.0%610000Barking, Havering and Redbridge University Hospitals NHS Trust606212298.4%1201100Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals NHS Trust39342100.0%420000Barnsley Hospital NHS Foundation Trust232144100.0%440000Barts and the London NHS Trust131326100.0%260000Basildon and Thurrock General Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust202242100.0%420000Basingstoke and North Hampshire NHS FoundationTrust11243594.3%332000Bedford Hospital NHS Trust192342100.0%420000Blackpool, Fylde and Wyre Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust371451100.0%510000Bradford Teaching Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust263662100.0%620000Brighton and Sussex University Hospitals NHS Trust262753100.0%530000Bromley Hospitals NHS Trust293160100.0%600000Buckinghamshire Hospitals NHS Trust5152103100.0%1030000Burton Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust251641100.0%410000Calderdale and Huddersfield NHS Foundation Trust324375100.0%750000Cambridge University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust363571100.0%710000Chesterfield Royal Hospital NHS Foundation Trust242852100.0%520000City Hospitals Sunderland NHS Foundation Trust332154100.0%540000Clatterbridge Centre for Oncology NHS Foundation Trust81523100.0%230000Colchester Hospital University NHS Foundation Trust253560100.0%600000Countess of Chester Hospital NHS Foundation Trust261137100.0%370000County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust501565100.0%650000Dartford and Gravesham NHS Trust152338100.0%380000Derby Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust4967116100.0%1160000Doncaster and Bassetlaw Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust422769100.0%690000Dorset County Hospital NHS Foundation Trust181533100.0%330000Ealing Hospital NHS Trust819100.0%90000East and North Hertfordshire NHS Trust425193100.0%930000East Cheshire NHS Trust194463100.0%630000East Kent Hospitals University NHS Trust733911299.1%1111000East Lancashire Hospitals NHS Trust384179100.0%790000East Sussex Hospitals NHS Trust581977100.0%770000Epsom and St Helier NHS Trust044100.0%40000Frimley Park Hospital NHS Foundation Trust122840100.0%400000Gateshead Health NHS Foundation Trust305484100.0%840000George Eliot Hospital NHS Trust151227100.0%270000Gloucestershire Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust6563128100.0%1280000Great Western Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust362763100.0%630000Guy's and St Thomas' Hospital NHS Foundation Trust364783100.0%830000Hammersmith Hospitals NHS Trust404100.0%40000Harrogate and District NHS Foundation Trust15520100.0%200000Heart of England NHS Foundation Trust10420124100.0%1240000Heatherwood and Wexham Park Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust312960100.0%600000Hereford Hospitals NHS Trust292554100.0%540000Hillingdon Hospital NHS Trust62329100.0%290000Hinchingbrooke Health Care NHS Trust13215100.0%150000Homerton University Hospital NHS Foundation Trust9312100.0%120000Hull and East Yorkshire Hospitals NHS Trust5352105100.0%1050000Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust366610296.1%984000Ipswich Hospital NHS Trust33397297.2%701100Isle of Wight NHS PCT172542100.0%420000James Paget University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust313061100.0%610000Kettering General Hospital NHS Foundation Trust304272100.0%720000King's College Hospital NHS FoundationTrust141428100.0%280000King's Lynn and Wisbech Hospitals NHS Trust19524100.0%240000Kingston Hospital NHS Trust20294998.0%480010Lancashire Teaching Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust383169100.0%690000Leeds Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust5289141100.0%1410000Lewisham Hospital NHS Trust101100.0%10000Luton and Dunstable Hospital NHS Foundation Trust213657100.0%570000Maidstone and Tunbridge Wells NHS Trust47489598.9%941000Mayday Healthcare NHS Trust251843100.0%430000Medway NHS Foundation Trust231740100.0%400000Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust223961100.0%610000Mid Yorkshire Hospitals NHS Trust562379100.0%790000Mid-Cheshire Hospitals NHS Trust272653100.0%530000Mid-Essex Hospital Services NHS Trust32032100.0%320000Milton Keynes General NHS Foundation Trust182139100.0%390000Morecambe Bay Hospitals NHS Trust243963100.0%630000Newham Healthcare NHS Trust13619100.0%190000Norfolk and Norwich University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust6935104100.0%1040000North Bristol NHS Trust463076100.0%760000North Cumbria University Hospitals NHS Trust292251100.0%510000North Middlesex Hospital NHS Trust83341100.0%410000North Staffordshire Hospital NHS Trust444892100.0%920000North Tees and Hartlepool NHS Foundation Trust3574109100.0%1090000North West London Hospitals NHS Trust231740100.0%400000Northampton General Hospital NHS Trust322153100.0%530000Northern Devon Healthcare NHS Trust16420100.0%200000Northern Lincolnshire and Goole Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust375087100.0%870000Northumbria Healthcare NHS Foundation Trust56662100.0%620000Nottingham University Hospitals NHS Trust5157108100.0%1080000Pennine Acute Hospitals NHS Trust511667100.0%670000Peterborough and Stamford Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust422870100.0%700000Plymouth Hospitals NHS Trust5750107100.0%1070000Poole Hospital NHS Trust374279100.0%790000Portsmouth Hospitals NHS Trust57379497.9%921100Princess Alexandra Hospital NHS Trust264874100.0%740000Queen Elizabeth Hospital NHS Trust101525100.0%250000Queen Mary's Sidcup NHS Trust191130100.0%300000Queen Victoria Hospital NHS Foundation Trust202100.0%20000Rotherham NHS Foundation Trust192039100.0%390000Royal Berkshire NHS Foundation Trust382563100.0%630000Royal Bolton Hospital NHS Foundation Trust254772100.0%720000Royal Bournemouth and Christchurch Hospitals NHS Trust332659100.0%590000Royal Cornwall Hospital NHS Trust405393100.0%930000Royal Devon and Exeter NHS Foundation Trust35377298.6%710001Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust161733100.0%330000Royal Liverpool and Broadgreen University Hospitals NHS Trust266591100.0%910000Royal Marsden NHS Foundation Trust6072132100.0%1320000Royal Surrey County and St Luke's Hospitals NHS Trust252853100.0%530000Royal United Hospital Bath NHS Trust33316498.4%630010Royal West Sussex NHS Trust241337100.0%370000Royal Wolverhampton Hospitals NHS Trust351954100.0%540000Salford Royal NHS Foundation Trust141024100.0%240000Salisbury NHS Foundation Trust212041100.0%410000Sandwell and West Birmingham Hospitals NHS Trust346296100.0%960000Scarborough and North East Yorkshire Healthcare NHS Trust13720100.0%200000Sheffield Teaching Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust5261113100.0%1130000Sherwood Forest NHS Foundation Trust222143100.0%430000Shrewsbury and Telford Hospital NHS Trust464086100.0%860000South Devon Healthcare NHS Foundation Trust265076100.0%760000South Tees Hospitals NHS Trust413071100.0%710000South Tyneside NHS Foundation Trust11819100.0%190000South Warwickshire General Hospitals NHS Trust182139100.0%390000Southampton University Hospitals NHS Trust3667103100.0%1030000Southend University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust3566101100.0%1010000Southport and Ormskirk Hospital NHS Trust10414100.0%140000St George's Healthcare NHS Trust171330100.0%300000St Helens and Knowsley Hospitals NHS Trust231134100.0%340000Stockport NHS Foundation Trust331346100.0%460000Surrey and Sussex Healthcare NHS Trust382058100.0%580000Tameside Hospital NHS Foundation Trust371047100.0%470000Taunton and Somerset NHS Foundation Trust265177100.0%770000The Christie NHS Foundation Trust13518100.0%180000The Dudley Group of Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust373673100.0%730000The Newcastle Upon Tyne Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust3371104100.0%1040000The Oxford Radcliffe Hospital NHS Trust6960129100.0%1290000United Bristol Healthcare NHS Trust301141100.0%410000United Lincolnshire Hospitals NHS Trust6296158100.0%1580000University College London Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust12921100.0%210000University Hospital Birmingham NHS Foundation Trust262753100.0%530000University Hospital of Coventry and Warwickshire NHS Trust313667100.0%670000University Hospitals of Leicester NHS Trust758616199.4%1601000University of South Manchester NHS Foundation Trust4083123100.0%1230000Walsall Hospitals NHS Trust172037100.0%370000Warrington and Halton Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust191938100.0%380000West Hertfordshire Hospitals NHS Trust381856100.0%560000West Middlesex University Hospital NHS Trust8816100.0%160000West Suffolk Hospitals NHS Trust212445100.0%450000Weston Area Health NHS Trust22729100.0%290000Whipps Cross University Hospital NHS Trust172239100.0%390000Whittington Hospital NHS Trust61016100.0%160000Winchester and Eastleigh Healthcare NHS Trust232346100.0%460000Wirral Hospital NHS Trust303767100.0%670000Worcestershire Acute Hospital NHS Trust571471100.0%710000Worthing and Southlands Hospitals NHS Trust21618298.8%811000Wrightington, Wigan and Leigh NHS Foundation Trust143852100.0%520000Yeovil District Hospital NHS Foundation Trust16218100.0%180000York Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust3964103100.0%103000it doesnt look broken to me, and these stats are the same across the board. Facts not media hype.
 
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