Not a right

[ViRedd]

Ummmmmmm......the government does subsidize food in the US. So, in essence, they already DO control the food supply.

Ahhh, yes ... thanks to the farm lobby, taxpayer's money is used to prop up prices, that's for sure. But the government hasn't taken over the farms, and bureaucrats don't drive the combines and tractors.

Using the same logic as the proponents of socialized health care, how can we trust the private market to order the right amount of string beans and peas?

Wouldn't string beans and peas be a lot cheaper if we took the profit out of the equation and just turned the supermarkets over to government to run?

Wouldn't it be far more efficient if we eliminated choices? I mean, look at the gross, capitalistic excess we witness every time we visit the super market ... ten brands of toilet paper, seven brands of bacon, six brands of sweet relish, thirty brands of cereal.

If we reduce everything down to one brand of foodstuffs, like the government addicts want to do with health care, wouldn't we be much better off?

If not better off with government run food, why better off with government run health care?

Vi

 

[Woomeister]

But you would still have the private option like the UK.

 

[ViRedd]

But you would still have the private option like the UK.

True that, but only in the beginning. The private sector needs to make a profit in order to stay in business. Government doesn't need to make a profit, in fact, if need be, government can just print more money using the hidden tax of inflation, or just raise taxes to the edge of revolution. The private "option" would soon be driven out of business and we would be stuck with no options at all other than "single payer."

Vi

 

[mrmadcow]

Okay, and what about all the uninsured 18 year olds with cervical cancer who cannot get insurance because of the whole pre-existing condition bullshit?

ever hear of medicare??

Insurance companies CANNOT hide behind tenuous rules and vague definitions.

but a government run bureaucracy can!

 

[Woomeister]

I understand what you are saying, but all I know is rich people still like Harley street and plush hospital/hotels and they make a profit. One of the more flakey parts of the NHS is dentistry. In some areas it is impossible to get an NHS dentist simply because dentists choose where to practice and whether or not to be 100% private 50/50 or whatever. Red tape and form filling to get there money has led more and more to be 100% private. I go private for dentistry as I prefer to understand what my dentist is saying, a lot of nhs dentists are Polish, Egyptian you name it...As I said earlier its not perfect.

 

[mrmadcow]

But you would still have the private option like the UK.

after paying for the public option,who could afford the private as well?

..... 18 weeks to have a non-emergency operation is a problem??? How???....

if you don't see a problem w/ this,you have no idea how well our system works.
try telling an american he has to wait even 18 days for a knee replacement under our evil capitalistic system.if you are happy w/ what you have,by all means keep it & enjoy!! please dont tell me it is better than what we have and the only way to go.
I never said our system is perfect but I feel handing it (healthcare) over to the government would make the problem much worse.

 

[ViRedd]

I recently had to have a Cat Scan. My doctor wrote up the prescription, I walked into the hospital the next day, registered, and the CT scan was done within two hours. Simple as that.

Please! Please! Let's turn the above into the DMV or the Post Office ... and let's give the the authority of the IRS.

Vi

 

[mrmadcow]

... I go private for dentistry as I prefer to understand what my dentist is saying, a lot of nhs dentists are Polish, Egyptian you name it...As I said earlier its not perfect.

ROFLMAO!! we have to pay for doctors and dentist who speak broken english!
altho some of the best doctors I have dealt w/ were from India.the OBGYN that delivered my youngest was named Dr. dothead -that isnt the correct spelling but he pronounved that way.great guy, we had to fight to keep him after he switched hospitals & our HMO switched us to another Dr.

 

[Woomeister]

Not once have I stated you should follow our lead...I have only given my views based on my experience. I knew you (or someone) would mention paying twice. lol. Did you read my links, they are pretty conclusive when looking into the ridiculously over priced drugs you have and the admin bill. So in reality you are already paying far more than my NI contributions and my private dentist bill. I dont believe in trying to convince people they are wrong and I am right, I am, however, someone who likes everyone to see all sides from an objective perspective, narrow mindedness is dangerous. I thought that it would be helpful for Americans to get insight from someone who has govt healthcare, I was trying to arm you not sway you. We can all find facts to help an argument but its where the facts come from that is important. i have no agenda and I am a fellow smoker, so maybe you should be more readily acceptable of my viewpoint than that of the American/British media-which obviously has an agenda. Of course change is hard for people whatever there political bias and depending on how good a govt you have to help the transition is integral. Im sure that whatever happens you (Americans) need a system that is more cost effective.

 

[Woomeister]

I recently had to have a Cat Scan. My doctor wrote up the prescription, I walked into the hospital the next day, registered, and the CT scan was done within two hours. Simple as that.

Please! Please! Let's turn the above into the DMV or the Post Office ... and let's give the the authority of the IRS.

Vi

I had an ultrasound an hour after seeing my doctor in Feb. I also get xrays instantly in my doctors surgery.

 

[NoDrama]

I got stitches 5 minutes after cutting myself, there wasn't even a wait. And it was a small cut, 8 stitches is all it took. The doctor was fast too, less than 10 minutes total, so my health care situation of the year took 15 minutes. Now unfortunately my insurance Co got hit for a $649 bill of which i paid $49. Terribly expensive, due to administrative costs to do all the government paperwork.

I COULD go to the VA and carry no insurance, but then the gubbermint would be in charge of me and I won't have those imbeciles in charge of my health.

 

[CrackerJax]

Tha data says nationalized health care is MARGINALIZED health care. The private sector has given the USA the finest weapons ever to fight disease and prolong life. It has made it accessible, considering the vast cost in bringing these wonders to market (part of the problem). No other system compares to ours. there is no crisis..... except in Washington and maybe Ted Kennedys mind.

 

[jrh72582]

Ahhh, yes ... thanks to the farm lobby, taxpayer's money is used to prop up prices, that's for sure. But the government hasn't taken over the farms, and bureaucrats don't drive the combines and tractors.

Using the same logic as the proponents of socialized health care, how can we trust the private market to order the right amount of string beans and peas?

Wouldn't string beans and peas be a lot cheaper if we took the profit out of the equation and just turned the supermarkets over to government to run?

Wouldn't it be far more efficient if we eliminated choices? I mean, look at the gross, capitalistic excess we witness every time we visit the super market ... ten brands of toilet paper, seven brands of bacon, six brands of sweet relish, thirty brands of cereal.

If we reduce everything down to one brand of foodstuffs, like the government addicts want to do with health care, wouldn't we be much better off?

If not better off with government run food, why better off with government run health care?

Vi

Your statement has nothing to do with proposed health care reform in the US. Someone hasn't read the bill .

'One brand of foodstuffs' is not even an imagined reality or a possible unintended side-effect of anything being debated right now.

But keep forging ahead with the lies. Reform IS coming, laden with connotative righteousness.

 

[jrh72582]

Tha data says nationalized health care is MARGINALIZED health care. The private sector has given the USA the finest weapons ever to fight disease and prolong life. It has made it accessible, considering the vast cost in bringing these wonders to market (part of the problem). No other system compares to ours. there is no crisis..... except in Washington and maybe Ted Kennedys mind.

And what do you propose for the uninsured cancer patients who are systematically denied treatment because of a lapsed policy due to a job loss and then being give the pre-existing condition bullshit? I'm still wondering...

 

[CrackerJax]

Policy lapse is exactly that...a lapse and up to the carrier to continue the coverage. Insurance isn't anchored to the employer, only the costs are. You Cobra and you get another policy.

 

[londonfog]

Tha data says nationalized health care is MARGINALIZED health care. The private sector has given the USA the finest weapons ever to fight disease and prolong life. It has made it accessible, considering the vast cost in bringing these wonders to market (part of the problem). No other system compares to ours. there is no crisis..... except in Washington and maybe Ted Kennedys mind.

Are you saying healthcare in this country is not broken????

 

[CrackerJax]

No, it is not broken....far from it. It all can be fixed without handing it over to the govt. the only ppl that want the govt. to take over..... is the govt.

What's broken is Social security, Medicare, medicaid, Postal system, Amtrak..... notice a pattern????

 

[PadawanBater]

Policy lapse is exactly that...a lapse and up to the carrier to continue the coverage. Insurance isn't anchored to the employer, only the costs are. You Cobra and you get another policy.

"Fuck em" is basically what you just said...

From where I sit, the healthcare system in America is of above average quality, but it's too expensive and not everyone can afford it. The private insurance companies profit off of keeping people sick, which is a huge problem. They also reserve the right to turn anyone away with a pre existing condition which is simply as screwed up and inhumane as you saying ''Fuck em". People deserve their health to be taken care of in the worlds most prosperous nation, it may not be a 'right', but it sure as fuck should be a privelidge.

I want the facts. No goddamn spin, no alterior agenda, straight hard facts.

This is what I've been hearing going around, someone clear this stuff up for me once and for all;

-old people - opponents of gov. healthcare are saying old people would get less healthcare as (essentially) they're going to be dying soon anyway and we shouldn't waste resources on them...

-gov. chooses your doc - opponents also say you will have no choice in deciding who treats you

-no public option - if gov. healthcare passes full force, the private insurance option will not be available anymore because the gov. healthcare will poison the market and make it impractical for people to buy private insurance, thus making private insurance obsolete (some argue which is the idea in the first place)

-treatment will decrease in quality - no competition leads to less drive in the market and less encentive to come up with new procedures and treatements

-everyone will be able to be covered - proponents of gov. healthcare say that with universal health coverage, the quality may not be as great, but it will still be good and in a system that practices and puts more emphasis on catching and diagnosing diseases earlier instead of treating the problem later, this form of coverage will pay for itself in the long run

... that's all I can think of at the moment, but could someone with a little knowledge on the subject clear that up for me?

Thanks.

 

[CrackerJax]

I certainly did not say that. It is the responsibility of the citizen to maintain insurance if they CHOOSE to carry it, no one else. Life is and cannot be guaranteed, and neither can health. You can't pass a regulation for a healthy life. You can't scrap a system which works so well for the vast majority of the population because of the small minority of sad stories. There will always be sad stories. There are tons of those stories taking place every day in NHS systems.....but those don't seem to bother you.

America has the finest medical technology in the world. America has the finest and MOST medical equipment of ANY nation. America will pay for your health care costs if you cannot afford it. No one is denied treatment, that's the law. It is all of those wealthy patients who will pay the high prices for a private room etc. that make it possible for the hospital to provide care for others less well off.

Again, do costs need to lowered for ppl? YES!!!! Handing it over to the Govt. is NOT the way to do it! Go ask the million ppl in Britain waiting to get a hospital bed (rationing).....go ask the Canadians that are facing surgery being canceled because of lack of funds. All those folks have insurance.....not worth much if you can't use it. Not worth much that when you do have something serious, the solution isn't available or the equipment is a generation behind because your country doesn't have the means to reinvest in medical technology (like Europe).

Wealthy foreigners always have the USA as a health back up plan. They use that option PROFUSELY. But where will we go when the medical industry shrivels up in the USA? Bermuda??

 

[Woomeister]

To remain accurate CJ you need to stop talking of 'Europe' and talk of individual countries. Europe is made up of so many countries, many of which have excellent health care systems and many which dont. Romania, Bulgaria etc etc have hospitals which are no more than buildings with 1930's cast iron beds and wool blankets. You cannot judge the NHS on 'sad stories' either. Only 62.5% of women over 40 have had a mammogram in the Usa in the past 3 years according to Harvard faculty reports. In France, Italy, Uk, Germany this figure is over 90%. I cannot deny you have an abundance of first class medical research facilities and equipment and innovation, but you have ridiculously priced drugs and insurance also. Your admin costs are what inflates the figures spent per capita in America. Japan and S.Korea have probably the best health care in the world and most figures would back this up. The reason more rich people travel to America, rather than Japan and S.Korea is (imo) due to cultural and language barriers. I understand you feel the need to draw direct comparisons with far smaller and less rich countries but direct comparisons are not always the best way of swaying peoples views. I for one will never make my judgement based on other peoples stories, my experience of the NHS has always been excellent, my families experience has always been excellent.