Heaths Flooded Tube Vertical

[fallinghigh]

Whats that could you show me a random pic from the web please.

here ya go

 

[iloveit]

Ahh right I thought you were talking about another piece of kit Cheers mate.

 

[proheto8008]

Hey you guys,

Can anyone here tell me why Heath uses an EC of only 1.0? I heard someone say that super low ec on these systems is preffered. Why is that? I always thought you wanted to max out the EC that the plants could handle.

 

[nephilthy]

Hey you guys,

Can anyone here tell me why Heath uses an EC of only 1.0? I heard someone say that super low ec on these systems is preffered. Why is that? I always thought you wanted to max out the EC that the plants could handle.

heath grows great bud using less nutes and feels less is more perhaps.

 

[Demosthenese]

i thought an ec of 1.0 was like 1300 ppm or something. i certainly remember reading heath say that the reason his plants could take the HIGH ppm was the high flow rate.

the 3 or 4 inch corrugated plastic tubing would work well for a colliseum style vert grow, but it doesn't bend tight enough to make a mini 3 sided vert. i don't think you'd have too much problem with roots jamming a 3 inch pipe.

 

[kiffytoi]

well he obviously didn't have any probs...
an ec of 1.0 is 500ppm 640ppm or 700 ppm depending on which meter you have

 

[RobMar]

wow, thats all I can say. I might try this setup.

 

[proheto8008]

heath grows great bud using less nutes and feels less is more perhaps.

what im saying is this...


How does he get the best/highest yields of bud on the web with only an EC of 1.0. Is there a technical reason why this low EC is atually better than a high EC?

Please do not respond with your opinions. I am a technical grower and i like real answers. No offense to you nephilthy, but that is your opinion. I was more so looking for a solid answer from a hydro grower who actually knows for a fact why heath does that. Maybe even an answer from Heath Himself.

 

[Demosthenese]

im almost positive heath answered this somewhere along the way. i'll do a read through tonight if i can motivate myself to read the 50 pages again.

 

[SOG]

efficient lumen distribution

EC is not the only factor
just like a human, if your not hungry you wont eat
it doesn't matter how much food your presented with

your environment conditions will influence the girls feed volume

7, The best way to use 2x600w is to have one above the other, this vertical is designed to have another row so I can use 2 x 600w.

8, To maximise yield you have to surround the bulb, and the optimum internal size is 4ft so it would be multiples of those dimensions.

9, yes it would but it would also require a change in extraction and all the problems associated with heat build up. Remember that co2 is only any use when you cannot improve any other aspect of the grow.

10, The old nutrient solution should be drained no matter what system you use and new nutrients should be added. The reason for this is the plants use some of the available nutrients and leave others, over time if you don’t replace the nutrients you would have a build up of the salts that the plants aren’t using. Your Ec meter would tell you that the ppm was correct but the nutrient solution would have high levels of the salts that the plants weren’t using so in effect you would starve your plants.

11, 4 rows 8 inch spacing.

12, Just an ordinary hole saw, the plants are vertical you could angle them by simply turning the pipe slightly.

13, A bypass allows you to control the amount of water that comes out of the pump. It is simply a tee with a valve, if you open the valve some of the output from the pump goes into the res instead of around the system.

14, growing them to fit the system you have put them in!.

15, 3 weeks as cuttings under fluros and one week in the system, normally i wouldn’t veg in the system but on this occasion I did.

bloody hell next time try ask a few questions a week!!! lol.



jeffisdreaming, You could run 2x400w but they are very inefficient compared to the 600w. The smell is easily dealt with by using a good quality carbon filter which is rated higher than the extraction of your room. There is hardly any noise so that wouldn’t be too much of a problem. but whether you should do it in an apartment in an urban environment or not would be up to how big your balls are! lol.


whoodi, You can use 600w or 1000 for trees, a good compromise is to have the 1000w as the centre bulb and the 600w on the outside.

 

[Buddy Boiee]

higher EC levels create problems for carrier ions to transport its requirements. Causes lock out and lock up.
If you're used to "slam 'em till they burn then back it off"
You'll probably think your plants are light green or unhealthy looking.

Lower EC levels are recommended "professionally" regularly

 

[Heath Robinson]

what im saying is this...


How does he get the best/highest yields of bud on the web with only an EC of 1.0. Is there a technical reason why this low EC is atually better than a high EC?

Please do not respond with your opinions. I am a technical grower and i like real answers. No offense to you nephilthy, but that is your opinion. I was more so looking for a solid answer from a hydro grower who actually knows for a fact why heath does that. Maybe even an answer from Heath Himself.

Good to see this thread is still alive and full of good ideas and questions.

I will go into detail about nutrient concentrations because it seems to be an area which a lot of growers don't fully understand.

I have seen quite a lot of bad advice from experienced growers who advise to "increase the nutrient concentrations until you see tip burn and then back off slightly" I will try explain why this is bad advice.

Nutrient salts can cause harm to plants if they are in high enough concentration in water or soil. This effect is mainly indirect by pulling moisture out of roots and reducing the uptake of water and nutrients to affected plants. This is the cause of tip and edge burn of leaves, if the nutrient concentration was maintained, slow growth, nutrient deficiencies, wilting and eventual death of the plant would occur if the problem is not corrected.

This is the reason why, Water movement in plants is a factor of osmotic pressure and capillary action. Osmotic pressure is defined as water flowing through a permeable membrane in the direction of higher salt concentrations. Water will continue to flow in the direction of the highest salt concentration until the salts have been diluted to the point that the concentrations on both sides of the membrane are equal.

A good example of this is pouring salt on a slug or snail, the salt concentration outside the slug is highest, which causes the water from inside the slug's body to cross the skin membrane. The slug becomes dehydrated and dies.

For osmosis to occur, water must move from a more dilute (the nutrient solution) to a more concentrated compartment (the plant). If you were to water your plant with sea water the plant would wither and die as the salt water now extracts water from the plant instead of replenishing it. So basically high levels of salinity will lead to high concentrations of salt in the plant tissues which will severely damage metabolic processes.

here is a grow chart which will help explain why there is no advantage to feeding your plants high nutrient concentrations.

notice on the chart that there is a deficient zone where the plant is not meeting its needs and growth is poor. A low zone where the plant is growing but lacks all the necessary nutrients to sustain good growth and yield.

Now the important part, you will notice if you look at the sufficient and high zones that there is no advantage to feeding your plants at higher concentrations than is needed. Notice also that growth and yield suffers sharply once the plant is over fertilised. If you feed your plant until it is toxic and showing signs of tip burn and you back off slightly you are still in the excess zone and your yields will suffer to some degree.

I have found that the sufficient zone for marijuana is in the range from an Ec of 1.0 to 1.6 I personally run in at an EC of approx 1.2 and never exceed 1.4

I hope that helps explain why I do what I do.


Heath

 

[nickbbad]

As always great info heath. Thank you for all the advise you have given.

 

[iloveit]

Perfect explanation cheers Heath.

 

[sparat1k]

Heath wonderful info thank you, I'm converted lol.

 

[SOG]

notice on the chart that there is a deficient zone where the plant is not meeting its needs and growth is poor. A low zone where the plant is growing but lacks all the necessary nutrients to sustain good growth and yield.

Now the important part, you will notice if you look at the sufficient and high zones that there is no advantage to feeding your plants at higher concentrations than is needed. Notice also that growth and yield suffers sharply once the plant is over fertilised. If you feed your plant until it is toxic and showing signs of tip burn and you back off slightly you are still in the excess zone and your yields will suffer to some degree.

Thanks Heath
a very creative way of explaining

personally I'm still in a learning curve, not expressing my opinion
simply my analysis of this diagram and what you have been kind enough to share with us in great detail

here's what I'm drawing from your chart
first i see a sharper drop being in the critical value area then in the mild area
next, the time-line it will take to drop from sufficient to low vs. high to low will be much longer

hence; if your in the high area, your safe zone is wider
since ppm usually drop and do not increase by themselves

plants may pick and choose from the mix,
you can be in safe area with one ingredient
and ath the same time lack another
it will be hard to tell which one is missing
when you have s narrower margins of error

its obvious to me you'd be better off being higher then low

i'm also observing in my lil veg unit, the girls started at 800ppm (EC .5)
few days went by the ppms went up to 830
that means they have been taking the water and eating almost evenly
since they grow like animals in the mean time
I'm assuming there is a portion in my mix they prefer less at this point

wouldn't you rather let them choose instead of restricting them?

 

[Heath Robinson]

Thanks Heath
a very creative way of explaining

personally I'm still in a learning curve, not expressing my opinion
simply my analysis of this diagram and what you have been kind enough to share with us in great detail

here's what I'm drawing from your chart
first i see a sharper drop being in the critical value area then in the mild area
next, the time-line it will take to drop from sufficient to low vs. high to low will be much longer

hence; if your in the high area, your safe zone is wider
since ppm usually drop and do not increase by themselves

plants may pick and choose from the mix,
you can be in safe area with one ingredient
and ath the same time lack another
it will be hard to tell which one is missing
when you have s narrower margins of error

its obvious to me you'd be better off being higher then low

i'm also observing in my lil veg unit, the girls started at 800ppm (EC .5)
few days went by the ppms went up to 830
that means they have been taking the water and eating almost evenly
since they grow like animals in the mean time
I'm assuming there is a portion in my mix they prefer less at this point

wouldn't you rather let them choose instead of restricting them?

Hi SOG

you can take from the information what you will, I am not telling you to do one thing or the other, just explaining why I do what I do.


I do not "restrict" my plants in any way, once a plant has sufficient for its needs it is a pointless exercise to increase the nutrient concentration as it will not increase yields, growth or anything else.

good luck with your grow


Heath

 

[Bob Marley Chiefs]

Good to see this thread is still alive and full of good ideas and questions.

I will go into detail about nutrient concentrations because it seems to be an area which a lot of growers don't fully understand.

I have seen quite a lot of bad advice from experienced growers who advise to "increase the nutrient concentrations until you see tip burn and then back off slightly" I will try explain why this is bad advice.

Nutrient salts can cause harm to plants if they are in high enough concentration in water or soil. This effect is mainly indirect by pulling moisture out of roots and reducing the uptake of water and nutrients to affected plants. This is the cause of tip and edge burn of leaves, if the nutrient concentration was maintained, slow growth, nutrient deficiencies, wilting and eventual death of the plant would occur if the problem is not corrected.

This is the reason why, Water movement in plants is a factor of osmotic pressure and capillary action. Osmotic pressure is defined as water flowing through a permeable membrane in the direction of higher salt concentrations. Water will continue to flow in the direction of the highest salt concentration until the salts have been diluted to the point that the concentrations on both sides of the membrane are equal.

A good example of this is pouring salt on a slug or snail, the salt concentration outside the slug is highest, which causes the water from inside the slug's body to cross the skin membrane. The slug becomes dehydrated and dies.

For osmosis to occur, water must move from a more dilute (the nutrient solution) to a more concentrated compartment (the plant). If you were to water your plant with sea water the plant would wither and die as the salt water now extracts water from the plant instead of replenishing it. So basically high levels of salinity will lead to high concentrations of salt in the plant tissues which will severely damage metabolic processes.

here is a grow chart which will help explain why there is no advantage to feeding your plants high nutrient concentrations.

notice on the chart that there is a deficient zone where the plant is not meeting its needs and growth is poor. A low zone where the plant is growing but lacks all the necessary nutrients to sustain good growth and yield.

Now the important part, you will notice if you look at the sufficient and high zones that there is no advantage to feeding your plants at higher concentrations than is needed. Notice also that growth and yield suffers sharply once the plant is over fertilised. If you feed your plant until it is toxic and showing signs of tip burn and you back off slightly you are still in the excess zone and your yields will suffer to some degree.

I have found that the sufficient zone for marijuana is in the range from an Ec of 1.0 to 1.6 I personally run in at an EC of approx 1.2 and never exceed 1.4

I hope that helps explain why I do what I do.


Heath

alright Heath so if you keep the ec down lower than 1.6 is there less salt build up in a ebb and flow system or does an ec of 1.0 build up the same amount of salts as 1.6?

 

[morrisgreenberg]

wow i am so happy theres someone with actual technical data to back this up, a while back Earl told me to run lower PPMS, like 800-900, gave it a try and started to notice i found a sweet spot of where as water was consumed, nutrients consumed at the same rate or faster. with higher nutrient concentrations you will notice ppms climb as water gets low requiring to add back plain water, making PH flucuate, causing lock outs and nute burns. since i used earls advice i never had happier healthier plants EVER with such stable PH....guys less is more and its always a good thing to find the sweet spot where you see the ppms go down, this is good, means your plants are actually using what you are giving and lets you know you can bump it up. no more pedal to the metal and wasting nutrients...good stuff heath

 

[iloveit]

This chart shows that EC/PPM meters vary from brand to brand http://www.cannaversity.com/cannaversity/idx.php/22/041/article/Charts-to-convert-ppmECCF.html so does this mean that an EC of 1.0 on your meter may be different to mine?

This has been on my mind since the time I began to grow would you be able to clear this up for me please.