What's wrong with socialism?

[iivan740]

total government control would be the government controlling EVERYTHING. Does subsidized tuition equate to the government controlling everything? Hardly.

Who controls the socialist programs in America that you listed in a previous post?
Every program that you listed is goverment controlled. To put it another way; the goverment has total control over every program that you listed.

Setting a minimum wage is not total control, nor is offering tuition grants to attend school or tax credits for low income individuals. These are government programs, so it should be pretty self explanatory as to who controls them.

Actually setting a minimum wage is total control over the minimum amount an employer is allowed to pay an employee. And again the goverment controls the minimum wage.

Did I say government should control industry? Nope. I'm not opposed to a single payer health care system, though.

Really, you do not think that goverment should control industry except when it comes to wages and apparently health care. So which is it no goverment in industry or goverment manipulated industry?

A single payer healthcare system isn't government control, either, if the hospitals remain private and the government simply pays the bills (like in Canada).

It's obvious that nobody reads the links I posted. Ask the Democratic Socialist party of America what they think socialism is. It isn't government control of everything, that's for sure.

I'm not advocating a pure socialist state. We already have socialist programs, I'd just like to see this expanded to health care.

Are the questions too hard to understand? You haven't yet answered one. Here they are again.

You stated in a previous post that the minimum wage, tax credits, public assistance programs, and subsidized college tuition in America are examples of socialism in america.

1) Who is in charge of those programs in America?
2) What is the effect of those programs in America?

Lets make them yes/no answers

1) Are the following programs controlled by goverment?
minimum wage Yes or No
tax credits Yes or No
public assistance programs Yes or No
subsidized college tuition Yes or No

2) Is the effect of these programs redistribution? Yes or No

 

[doobnVA]

Government programs are government controlled. That's why they are called government programs, and not FiFi the dancing clown programs.

Total control over EVERYTHING and control over a certain number of things are vastly different. The government already controls most industry, whether it be direct control or through regulation, etc.

So, you're pretty much agreeing that we already have socialism in America, what's wrong with extending it to health care?

 

[DubsFan]

Name one "right" that's been taken away from YOU, personally, in the last 8 months.


Oh, none? Okay, that's what I thought.

I think you owe the guy you said this too an apology. Even more so because the rights of MMJ patients have been stepped on and we are on an herb site.

Ok wait...I'll just accept that you were being arrogant and wrong.

Take your pick.

I don't think that guy lived in SD. So I'll gladly accept your apology. C'mon. Be a man. You were wrong.

 

[skiskate]

I dont even want to get into this argument, but ill throw my opinion out.

I think socialism to a degree is great, To me healthcare is something that every citizen has a right to and im glad that here that is a reality. Absolute socialism or communism im not so down with...

 

[iivan740]

I'm not advocating a pure socialist state. We already have socialist programs, I'd just like to see this expanded to health care.

Then why is the title "What's wrong with socialism?"?
And your first post

I just want to hear some honest, informed opinions on why you think socialism is so horrible. Please bear in mind that socialism is not the same as communism, fascism, or nazism. Let's just stick with socialism for now.

2 questions:

What do you think socialism means?

And

Why do you consider socialism "bad"?

Not one mention of health care there.

 

[doobnVA]

Then why is the title "What's wrong with socialism?"?
And your first post

Not one mention of health care there.

Have you been following the reform debate at all? The cries of "it's socialism!" and "this is america, we don't have socialism here!"?

Ring a bell?

 

[doobnVA]

I think you owe the guy you said this too an apology. Even more so because the rights of MMJ patients have been stepped on and we are on an herb site.

Ok wait...I'll just accept that you were being arrogant and wrong.

Take your pick.

I don't think that guy lived in SD. So I'll gladly accept your apology. C'mon. Be a man. You were wrong.

In the United States of America, no person is guaranteed the right to possess, distribute or consume cannabis. Nobody.

Just because a state law makes it "legal", does not exclude you from federal prosecution. It is not a right.

 

[hom36rown]

So you don't really want socialism, just healthcare reform.

 

[doobnVA]

Why don't we just privatize everything? Emergency services, schools... everything. Who cares about the poor people who can't afford it? Screw them, as long as I have what I need. Let their homes burn down and their children remain illiterate and uneducated. Who cares, right? This is America, and we don't like socialism here!

 

[DubsFan]

Don't hide VA guy...

You know many have lost rights in SoCal. You're running from yourself.

This guy is all over the place. He wants to know what rights were lost. I show him a prime example then he suddenly hides behind a law that Obama's cabinet clearly said would not be enforced.

You think so highly of yourself and him that you cannot admit fault.

 

[doobnVA]

So you don't really want socialism, just healthcare reform.

We have socialism here, and I think it's great. What I'm saying is, if we already have socialism in our schools, etc, why not extend it to health care?

Are y'all afraid the poor are going to rise up and kick your asses, because they can suddenly afford to have that torn ACL repaired?

 

[doobnVA]

Don't hide VA guy...

You know many have lost rights in SoCal. You're running from yourself.

This guy is all over the place. He wants to know what rights were lost. I show him a prime example then he suddenly hides behind a law that Obama's cabinet clearly said would not be enforced.

You think so highly of yourself and him that you cannot admit fault.

Funny, I thought I was sitting right here, with myself.

Well, if you see me run by will you send me back my way? I have a doob I'd like to smoke with me.

 

[DubsFan]

We have socialism here, and I think it's great. What I'm saying is, if we already have socialism in our schools, etc, why not extend it to health care?

Are y'all afraid the poor are going to rise up and kick your asses, because they can suddenly afford to have that torn ACL repaired?

Many without insurance have yet to even apply for the programs that do exist.

 

[doobnVA]

Look Budguy,

I'm sorry you guys have it so hard out there in CA, what with being able to grow your own pot legally and all. It's real sad that you have to deal with the same shit as the rest of us. Real sad.

 

[iivan740]

Government programs are government controlled. That's why they are called government programs, and not FiFi the dancing clown programs.

Ok so why don't you use some non goverment examples then. You posted them first I just asked 2 easy questions.

Total control over EVERYTHING and control over a certain number of things are vastly different. The government already controls most industry, whether it be direct control or through regulation, etc.

So, you're pretty much agreeing that we already have socialism in America, what's wrong with extending it to health care?

No I pretty much agree that your ideaology is all over the place, especially in this thread. You will never be able to implement socialism or socialist agendas without goverment control. Americans will not pay for goverment run healthcare unless they are forced to do so. Good or bad socialism and social programs are forced upon a populace by controlling bodies of goverment that are powerful enough to enforce their will upon the people. The vast majority of us americans work to put money in our own pockets and not to support the less fortunate.
Why strive to be a surgeon when the gas station attendant lives as well as the surgeon?
I'm not taking sides here I just want to understand your side.

 

[doobnVA]

Many without insurance have yet to even apply for the programs that do exist.

Just because you don't have insurance, doesn't mean you qualify for Medicaid.

You have to be VERY poor to qualify for those programs. That leaves out a pretty significant chunk of the middle class, whose employers don't provide health care and can't afford to spend upwards of $1000 a month for individual coverage.

 

[doobnVA]

Ok so why don't you use some non goverment examples then. You posted them first I just asked 2 easy questions.

No I pretty much agree that your ideaology is all over the place, especially in this thread. You will never be able to implement socialism or socialist agendas without goverment control. Americans will not pay for goverment run healthcare unless they are forced to do so. Good or bad socialism and social programs are forced upon a populace by controlling bodies of goverment that are powerful enough to enforce their will upon the people. The vast majority of us americans work to put money in our own pockets and not to support the less fortunate.
Why strive to be a surgeon when the gas station attendant lives as well as the surgeon?
I'm not taking sides here I just want to understand your side.

Because being a gas station attendant would be a very dull and unsatisfying job for a lot of people.

Did you choose your career based solely on how it pays? Or did you study something that interests you?

Of course it's forced by the government! Do you think people would pay taxes if it weren't forced by the government? Hell no! But people realize that their tax dollars are used to fund the roads they drive on, the schools their children attend, etc.

If everyone had health insurance, everyone would pay their own way with their own tax contributions. the poor are already subsidized by the taxpayer, so you're already paying for them whether you like it or not.

Doesn't it make sense to have a system where EVERYONE who is able pays their own way? Instead of the cockamamie system we have now where the poor are covered, but middle class families either walk out on the bill (leaving it for everyone else to make up) or go bankrupt trying to pay?

 

[iivan740]

Have you been following the reform debate at all? The cries of "it's socialism!" and "this is america, we don't have socialism here!"?

Ring a bell?

No I do not agree with the path the health care reform is taking. If they really wanted to reform health care and get doctor visit costs back in line, I believe that they would be reforming the health care industry. Not adding a goverment run insurance option.

I do agree with the social programs such as the interstate program and fire and safety services. These are programs that are paid for by everyone who pays taxes and benifit everyone in the community to the same extent. I do not agree with tax credits or welfare where everyone who pays taxes pays for them and only a select group can benifit.

 

[iivan740]

Because being a gas station attendant would be a very dull and unsatisfying job for a lot of people.?

Hell no, if I studied hard and became a surgeon I would be pissed to see that my gas station attendant neighbor had as much as I did.. I would resent the fact that the attendant had the same stuff that I did.

Did you choose your career based solely on how it pays? Or did you study something that interests you?

I chose my path based on necessity. I do work now based on the pay, and I routinely turn down low paying jobs no matter what the reason.

Of course it's forced by the government! Do you think people would pay taxes if it weren't forced by the government? Hell no! But people realize that their tax dollars are used to fund the roads they drive on, the schools their children attend, etc.

If everyone had health insurance, everyone would pay their own way with their own tax contributions. the poor are already subsidized by the taxpayer, so you're already paying for them whether you like it or not.

Doesn't it make sense to have a system where EVERYONE who is able pays their own way? Instead of the cockamamie system we have now where the poor are covered, but middle class families either walk out on the bill (leaving it for everyone else to make up) or go bankrupt trying to pay?

Your preaching to the quire here. Although you and I think a little differently on how to fix it. My thoughts are to disband medicare and medicade not add to them. Health care is not a right it is (IMHO) a pay to play option. You can get it if you can pay for it.

I definitly agree with you when you say the middle class is getting screwed over. We are the backbone and the poor routinely take advantage of our good nature.

 

[redivider]

nope. health care is not cable tv. you should have to pay more to get more channels. you shouldn't have to pay more cuz you get sicker.

having equal, universal healthcare has nothing to do with how much you earn, and how much you have. it is a matter of one less worry on your mind, no matter who you are.

if you think it is a pay to play situation you are one of the many who perpetuate the constant increase in price, and the constant decrease in costs, and quality doesn't matter because health care is health care, so if you need it, your gonna get it.... and chances are you are going to the same doctor as your friends, or the nearest dr. or the first one you find.....and don't really care about quality, so shopping around idea is bullshit....

what is needed in this country is a system that decreases price on consumers, maintains costs manageable, and increases quality. the private sector isn't giving us this. thinking the US has the highest quality in health care it is because you do not take into account it's overall cost. the cost to quality ratio in the US is ridiculous....the kind of money being spent in the US on health care is out of this world....