Killing Root Rot

[RickWhite]

Can it be done? I have a mild case that isn't killing the large plants but is decimating my cuttings. I have heard of using H2O2 but others so it doesn't work which makes sense because root rot is a fungi and spores get into the plant stem.

Is there a way of getting rid of this aside from wiping out the strain? I'm thinking that maybe I can treat a cutting with a fungicide over and over until it becomes a clean mom.

 

[Sexxxy Beast]

I think I have root rot, my roots have stopped growing, they float in the water, and they have a brownish color to them. They arnt slimey or black anywhere, but maybe i caught it before then. At first I just added hygrozine to the nutrient solution of my DWC and within 2 days the water turned to a murky brownish color and my ph skyrocketed from 5.8 to 6.5. I then changed the res to have only pure tap water and hygrozine. I hope this will kill my root rot.

Thats what Im doing, dont know if it will work, some people say you gotta cut the roots off. I did this a few days ago to my second res that had even worst root rot, I took a 1ft plants roots completely off, just leaving about an inch of roots from the main stem. She's hanging in there thank god, dont know about the others though.

 

[RickWhite]

Your roots don't look bad - but mine don't either. Try to take clones and see if they take root. My plants are able to deal with the fungi but it kills my clones. The problem is that it gets in the stem.

To prevent it keep your water around 68 deg and don't let anything fall in.

 

[ohnothimagin]

Hygrozyme is great for roots. I started using it on my last 2 grows. It keeps my roots white and healthy.

 

[RickWhite]

Hygrozyme is great for roots. I started using it on my last 2 grows. It keeps my roots white and healthy.

I will be doing that in the future.

 

[fatman7574]

Chlorine is the common treatment and preventaive used by the commercial green huouse trade. I have been using it for iver 10 years. Flairform Pythoff is the most widely sold. They sell to different d formulas. One is jsut RO water with chlorine bleach added. The other is RO water with chloramine added. The chloroamine does not outgass as quickly as regular chlorine so it does not have to be added as often.

Here is a link to therir site that gives links to its MSDS on their products. http://www.flairform.com/Products/pythoff.htm Look at the 25 g/L link. Regular chlorox bleach is about 7.5% sodium hypochlorite. You need only add enough chlorox to RO water to obtain the % of chlorine provided in Pythoff. Flairforms commercial strength is 2.5% or chlorox diluted to 1/3 strength. Here is the label of their bottle. http://www.flairform.com/downloads/py_commercial_label.gif

As can be seen very little is added to the water. It works out to adding 1 ml or 2 ml of the diluted bleach to every 6.6 gallons of water. You can dilute the bleach to waht ever concentration you want that makes its use the easiest. AT 1/3 third strength one teaspoon of chlorox bleach is good for 16.5 to 33 gallons of nutrient water. Typically one starts with 1 teaspoon (diluted) per 16.5 gallons then every two days add 1 teaspoon (diluted) for every 33 gallons to replaced used through oxidation reactions and by outgassed chlorine.

 

[Mcgician]

I used to have to deal with occasional pythium years ago when I was new to hydro and using what today is called the 'ebb and gro' system. Nowadays, I use a recirculating system with rockwool, use Hygrozyme, and Dutch Master's Zone. Haven't seen one problem yet. As far as dealing with pythium that's already established, that's not my area of expertise. I recently read an article in Maximum Yield though that had great success bringing back really bad cases of pythium using electrolysis. Basically, the method just makes more oxygen available to the root system. The item on the market I've been hearing about is called Oxy-Gen. It's pretty expensive though. I'm considering getting one as not only will I never have to buy expensive enzymes like Hygrozyme again, but the added dissolved oxygen has a multitude of benefits, primarily faster, and more productive growth.

 

[fatman7574]

I used to have to deal with occasional pythium years ago when I was new to hydro and using what today is called the 'ebb and gro' system. Nowadays, I use a recirculating system with rockwool, use Hygrozyme, and Dutch Master's Zone. Haven't seen one problem yet. As far as dealing with pythium that's already established, that's not my area of expertise. I recently read an article in Maximum Yield though that had great success bringing back really bad cases of pythium using electrolysis. Basically, the method just makes more oxygen available to the root system. The item on the market I've been hearing about is called Oxy-Gen. It's pretty expensive though. I'm considering getting one as not only will I never have to buy expensive enzymes like Hygrozyme again, but the added dissolved oxygen has a multitude of benefits, primarily faster, and more productive growth.

Considering the fact that oxygen difusses very poorly a high DO is really only adventageous with aqua culture systems such as DWC or bubblephonic where roots have grown into the nutrient water. In other systems the roots obtain over 99% of their O2 from the air surrounding them. It is much easier to assure there is adequate fresh air than to try to provide root O2 needs through high DO water. Pythium/root rot is caused by roots sitting in low DO water or anoxic water. If you had root rot with an ebb and flow sytem it was a poorly designed or operated sytem. There are many people who have root rot problems with rock wool grows. rock wool becomes water logged when over watered. That produced root rot or stem rot, or both.

 

[RickWhite]

Chlorine is the common treatment and preventaive used by the commercial green huouse trade. I have been using it for iver 10 years. Flairform Pythoff is the most widely sold. They sell to different d formulas. One is jsut RO water with chlorine bleach added. The other is RO water with chloramine added. The chloroamine does not outgass as quickly as regular chlorine so it does not have to be added as often.

Here is a link to therir site that gives links to its MSDS on their products. http://www.flairform.com/Products/pythoff.htm Look at the 25 g/L link. Regular chlorox bleach is about 7.5% sodium hypochlorite. You need only add enough chlorox to RO water to obtain the % of chlorine provided in Pythoff. Flairforms commercial strength is 2.5% or chlorox diluted to 1/3 strength. Here is the label of their bottle. http://www.flairform.com/downloads/py_commercial_label.gif

As can be seen very little is added to the water. It works out to adding 1 ml or 2 ml of the diluted bleach to every 6.6 gallons of water. You can dilute the bleach to waht ever concentration you want that makes its use the easiest. AT 1/3 third strength one teaspoon of chlorox bleach is good for 16.5 to 33 gallons of nutrient water. Typically one starts with 1 teaspoon (diluted) per 16.5 gallons then every two days add 1 teaspoon (diluted) for every 33 gallons to replaced used through oxidation reactions and by outgassed chlorine.

This info is huge. What is your opinion on the ability to rid your strain of Pythium? Many say the only way is to kill off the starin and start fresh. But, other sources I have found say that Pythium is always present and is an opportunistic pathogen that multiplies when conditions are right and attacks weak plants. From what I know of microbiology, the latter is closer to my understanding of how infections occur. What is your take on this?

 

[RickWhite]

Bleach gives 5.7% cholrine. 5.7/2.5=2.28. So, to make a standardized solution you dilute 1 part bleach into 1.28 parts water.

Following the directions 40ml/1000L one would use .04ml to make 1L of solution. I diluted my standard solution to 1/10 strength and used .4ml to make 1L. At this level the bleach isn't detectable even by taste.

To purify drinking water one would use 18 drops per gal. I counted .4ml to be 14 so .04 would be 1.4 drops per 1L or 1.4X4 = 5.6 drops of bleach per gal of water, just below the recomedation for purifying water. Of course the high dose would be about 11 drops per gal.

Does this sound right? Sounds about right to me.

 

[fatman7574]

Bleach gives 5.7% cholrine. 5.7/2.5=2.28. So, to make a standardized solution you dilute 1 part bleach into 1.28 parts water.

Following the directions 40ml/1000L one would use .04ml to make 1L of solution. I diluted my standard solution to 1/10 strength and used .4ml to make 1L. At this level the bleach isn't detectable even by taste.

To purify drinking water one would use 18 drops per gal. I counted .4ml to be 14 so .04 would be 1.4 drops per 1L or 1.4X4 = 5.6 drops of bleach per gal of water, just below the recomedation for purifying water. Of course the high dose would be about 11 drops per gal.

Does this sound right? Sounds about right to me.

I gave mixing directions based upon known strengths of Chlorox bleach and flairform Pythoff, the largest seller of a chlorine treatment of root rot. It is the same strength used by most commercila greenhouse growers.

H2O2 can be used to kill the bacterium causinf root rot and it will oxidize the rotten roots. However, it is an extremely strong oxidizer it is much easier to screw up with H2O2. It also provides so residual oxidation/disinfection effect. It is also not readily testable in a home as is chlorine. They even sell cheap swimming pool chlorine test kits that can measure chlorine levels in thewater. there is no cheap test for whater yo usedenough, to little or too much H2O2.

The pythoff bacterium is a common anerobic bacteria. Any where there is a moist warm environment without oxygen you'll find the bacterium. The bcterium hoever is easily killed by chlorine, a relatively weak oxidizer.

 

[Mcgician]

Hey fatman, did you happen to see the article in Maximum Yield I was referring to? They didn't mention any specifics regarding what type of electrolysis system was used, or really any details whatsoever. All they mentioned was that that was the method they used in reviving basil plants with sever cases of pythium. New, healthy white roots were pictured as evidence also. Are you completely disregarding this type of treatment, or are you saying it's only applicable in in DWC grows? If my memory serves correct, they were growing using NFT. ???

 

[fatman7574]

I have not read a article from Maximum yield abut electrolysis but I have read many research papers, some less than a few months old. Dealing with research in water treatment and waste water treatment daily the topic is continually arising as the number one cost in those treatments is typically always the cost of aeration.

I am saying it is economically and technologically nor ready for use for commercial or industrial use yet alone home use. There are huge , huge numbers of people waiting for break throughs in the field that would make it practical for every day use outside of research.

It is sorta like the atomix system when origimally offered for retail use. Sure it worked and provided much better growth than any other system, but at a minimum cost of $3000 (plus shipping) per 10 square feet of growing area and still full of bugs to be worked out. And it was not top line components, just average of those available. Even though they were great systems did not make them econonmically feasible or technologically yet feasible. They went out of business. Even through DIY they are not cheap. Each nozzle with dapter etc rons over$50. A retail compressor to hanlde tow chambers runs over $1200.

There are lots of issues to yet work out before hydrolyisis becomes practical in a home application. Units now small enough for home use provide too little benefit for the cost involved.

There are alot of issues to over come besides just technological investments. For ean ample look at the "silent" air compressor used for retail atomozer systems in a home as once sood nt atomix. they sell for huge mark ups beause they are used by a small market such as air brshing, tattoo artists and to a small extent denistry. A$1500 unit will use the comprsessor from$200 window air conditioner with a $1 site glass ans a $1 oil fill plug added. They mount it on top of a $25 air tank with $10 air pressure control switvch and $50 worth of plumbing fittings and a $100 electrical cord. Basically they sell $500 worth of retail components scabbed together for $1500. The nozzles I buy for an atomizer can be bought from $15 each to $150 each for the excat same nox zzles manfaturered ans stan mped with the same name but from different suppliers. And that is for brass ones. Twice as much for stainless steel. Or you can buy an exact replacement made by another country made out od stainless steel for $15 each.

So even once the technological and safety aspects are dealt with you still have to deal with the hardest part. The immense greed of the manfacturers and retailers.

One to see some great roots look at the aero pods threads latest forum photos of roots by Tree Farmer. They are high pressure misted roots sprayed an average of a second or two every two minutes. 1/5 that often at night. Nutrient EC down around 0.25
https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/254876-my-true-hp-aero-plug-42.html

 

[Mcgician]

I have not read a article from Maximum yield abut electrolysis but have raed many research papers, some less than a few months old. I am saying it is economically and technologically nor ready for use for commercial or industrial use yet alone home use. There are huge , huge numbers of people waiting for braek throughs in the field that would make it practical for every day use outside of research.

It is sorta like the atomix system whem origimally offered for reatil use. Sure it worked and provided much better growth than any other system, but at a minimum cost of $3000 (plus shipping) per 10 square feet of growing area and still full of bugs to be worked out. And it was not top line components, just average of those available. Even though they were great systems did not make them econonmically feasible or technologically yet feasible. They went out of business. Even through DIY they are not cheap. Each nozzle with dapter etc rons over$50. A retail compressor to hanlde tow chambers runs over $1200.

There are lots of issues to yet work out before hydrolyisis becomes practical in a home application. Units now small enough for home use provide too little benefit for the cost involved.

There are alot of issues to over come besides just technological investments. For ean ample look at the "silent" air compressor used for retail atomozer systems in a home as once sood nt atomix. they sell for huge mark ups beause they are used by a small market such as air brshing, tattoo artists and to a small extent denistry. A$1500 unit will use the comprsessor from$200 window air conditioner with a $1 site glass ans a $1 oil fill plug added. They mount it on top of a $25 air tank with $10 air pressure control switvch and $50 worth of plumbing fittings and a $100 electrical cord. Basically they sell $500 worth of retail components scabbed together for $1500. The nozzles I buy for an atomizer can be bought from $15 each to $150 each for the excat same nox zzles manfaturered ans stan mped with the same name but from different suppliers. And that is for brass ones. Twice as much for stainless steel. Or you can buy an exact replacement made by another country made out od stainless steel for $15 each.

So even once the technological and safety aspects are dealt with you still have to deal with the hardest part. The immense greed of the manfacturers and retailers.

Werd.

Excellent post, and you've made a believer out of me. Even more, you've saved me a bunch of money, because I was very close to buying one of these systems. Thanks a ton fatman +rep.

 

[fatman7574]

Commercial Horticulture Preperation. http://www.biconet.com/disease/infosheets/ZeroTolSpecimenLabelMSDS. Hydrogen Dioxide added to water produces Hydrogen Peroxide.

 

[RickWhite]

Fatman, you calculated bleach at 7.5% - it is 5.7% chlorine. Anyway, I think we both ended up in the roughly same neighborhood. Wouldn't hurt to double check though.

If one wishes to use oxygen they could just buy a small disposable cylinder for welding from a hardware store. Electrolysis is accomplished by passing a small current through your solution. Just place two wires with bare ends about 1" apart and use a small transformer. The products are O2 and H+ which is an explosive mixture so make sure your wires don't touch when you move them or you will blow up.

I think a bleach solution is the best and safest method.

 

[fatman7574]

Fatman, you calculated bleach at 7.5% - it is 5.7% chlorine. Anyway, I think we both ended up in the roughly same neighborhood. Wouldn't hurt to double check though.

If one wishes to use oxygen they could just buy a small disposable cylinder for welding from a hardware store. Electrolysis is accomplished by passing a small current through your solution. Just place two wires with bare ends about 1" apart and use a small transformer. The products are O2 and H+ which is an explosive mixture so make sure your wires don't touch when you move them or you will blow up.

I think a bleach solution is the best and safest method.

Chlorox now say 5 to 10% in their MSDS. I chose middle ground and fudged from there.

A few real calculations we both left out:
If chlorox is indeed say 5.75% They are really very non specific.

5.75% NaOCl, which is in solution as
(HOCl + OCl)

Atomic weights:
Na= 23
O = 16
Cl = 36
So HOCl = 75 and OCl = 52
52/75 = 0.69
0.69 * 5.75 = 3.96% (HOCl + OCl)

Convert to ppm : 3.96/100 = X/1000000

Therefore X= 39675 ppm

Waht we really want is to add enough chlorine to be adding enough to react with the dead organics (dead roots) and still have a residual clorine level of o.4 ppm. Drinking water usually had a residual of 1.0 ppm with 2.0 being the maximum residual aloowed by the EPA.

So typically with chemical nutrient water as a preventative we add enough to obtain a 1% level as if there were no organics to oxidize ( ikes no roots ).

Now the back of the napkin or table cloth calculations that do not require a calculator. Lets just roughly assume that the ppm is 40000. Lets also roughly assume a gallon contains 4000 ml instead of 3785. If we want a 1000 ppm solution we would need 1/40 of a gallon of the chlorox put in a one gallon bottle for a 1000 ppm solution. Meaning 100 ml put in a 1 gallon jug with water then added until full would give us a solution we could use at a 1000 to one ratio with nutrient water.

Saying the gallon is 4000 ml that would mean adding four ml per gallon. Considering all the roughness and such and the fudging of saying there is nothing being oxidized I would say with 100 ml of chlorox added to a gallon jug of water then filled with RO water it is safe to then use 1 teapoon per gallon initially then 1/2 teaponn per gallon every other day after that.

Ba da, ba da boom goes the hydrogen and oxygen.

There are pellets made and sold to industry that strip nearly all gasses from air but O2. They are used heavily by waste water treament plants. All of the air pumped into their waste water reactor tanks drawn first through the pellets. They are reusable and have a life span of over 10 years.

 

[RickWhite]

Fatman, the label says 5.7% availible chlorine - IDK what all the calculations are for.

Anyway, if I add straight Clorox to a gallon of water to use for clones, how much would you recommend adding?

 

[fatman7574]

Like I said. The MDS said 5 to 10% Sodium Hypochlorite. Maybe I just got the bad luck of their worse posted MSDS. The calculations are based upon your saying 5.75%. And I calculated based upon 5.75% sodium hypochlorite as chlorox bleach is made with sodium hypochlorite. The calculations merely show that if it is 5.75% sodium chlorite then only 3.9% is actually available as chlorine. I can go to probably 10 differnt sites and be told 10 different amounts in various term as to how much chlorine is in house hold Chlorox Bleach. What I see most often is the number 5.25% on sites that say how to mix chlorox for restaurant surface disinfection. Honestly I don't think Chlorox runs a tight control on the chlorine content of most of their products. As long as they provide the minimum of what they advertise they just plug away with mixing and bottling their at least 50 different products containing sodium hypochlorite. Considering that the caactual material cost of producing their products is their smallest expense I do not think they care a lot.

The ppm concentration is 39675 ppm if the Chlorox was 5.75% sodium hypochlorite. If it was 5.75% aviailble Chlorine then it is 57500 ppm. You want 1 ppm.

That means the Chlorox straight from the bottle will treat either 39675 gallons or 57500 gallons. There are 3785 ml to a gallon. So a ml from the bottle will treat either: (39675/3785) = 10.48 gallons or (57500/3785)= 15.19 gallons As 2 ppm is the maximum allowed residual level of chlorine and the residual is how much is left over after all organics are oxidized that means those water treatment plants started out with adding about 4 ppm. Yes there are that much crap still in our water after water treatment plants are through with it. When who look at a treatment report and it gives a list of things like Bromodichloromethane, Chlorodibromomethane, Chloroform, and Trihalonethanes the ose are all compounds formed by chlorine oxidizing organic compounds in the water.

Many people have used chlororinated tap water on their plants for decades without killing their plants. Chlorine harm to plants iis grossly exaggerated. The commercial green house industry has been using chlorine at the residual 0.5 ppm to 1 ppm rate for decades with the food they grow that we eat. Obviously it is not killing the plants or us. They inject chlorine by auto control to keep the residual level between 0.5 ppm and 1 ppm continously. they do not wait for a problem to arrive first, the use those levels as a preventative against Pythh. So whether 10.48 or 15.19 is the proper number does not matter much as Pythh is easily killed by chlorine at levels as low as 0.2 ppm at tempertures of 75 degrees F. It is even more effective at higher temps but the chlorine out gasses quicker as the temperture increases so it must be added more often.

Personally I would use the 1 ml per 10 gallon number. That means a teaspoon of chlorox straight from the bottle is good for 50 gallons of nutrient water.

The use of bleach is the cheapest aspect of my growing. Thats why I find the cost of retail products sucha s Pythoff so AN ish. Flairform charges something like $10 for a 1 quart bottle of RO water with a few cents of Chlorox added to it sold as Pythoff. Reminds me so much of Advanced Nutrients prices.

 

[RickWhite]

OK, so .1ml per gallon which is about 3 or 4 drops. 8 drops is recommended for emergency steralization of drinking water.