MY True HP Aero Plug&Play Pods

[fatman7574]

Well I guess we will have to see how it goes because so for its running very well. I guess the proof will be in the pudding. And the funny thing is that my buddy has a atomix system and it is not a cone spray it is a flat fan but hey what do I know they could have just sent him the wrong one . Before you go making assumptions you should ask if i cycle on and off. Oh and by the way my timer goes into the thousands of a second. The system I have noone has.

Dude I said nothing about cone shapes. Yes atomix did sell a slit nozzle. It is also clearly shown in their patent application. Your point is what? Nozzles are available with slot tips. Personally I have not found them to perform as well as a round cone nozzle. but it is typically the slot tips offered with the cheesy tip cleaner. I am sure the ready availability of a cleaning slot tip had a slot to do with atomix choosing the slot tip. In reality atomix's nozzles were not all that good. The needle cleaning device did not perform well. Actually the use of a nozzle set up in the siphon mode as used by atomixand by the manafcturer naking the cheesy sad knockoff is quite sorry anyway. A gravity feed set up works much better.

I really do not care if you cycle on or off and id not imply that you did or did not. I merely related what research has shown. What you do or do not gain from that is up to you. How you personally run your grow is really none of my concern. If you care to share your experiences that would nice. If not, that is your choice.

My timers also go to 0.001 seconds. I use Omron industrial timer. The short cyclic interval posible are definitely not needed for an aero system and really not a bragging point, but they are sold that way. I buy them because of their dependability and versatilty (other features) rather than their ability for a 0.001 minimum or 999.9 hour maximum cycle option. I have never had the need to use a cyclic time shorter than 1 second. Some people do drop spray times down to 0.5 seconds at night. I believe if you check you will find that while you can cycle down to an on cycle of 0.001 seconds, when doing so your off cycle likely maxs at 9.999 seconds. A 0.01 on allows up to a max 99.9 second off cycle., and a 0.1 on allows for a max 999.9 second off cycle. This would continue up to a 0.1 hr on and a max 999.9 hours off.

I can also say the systems I have no one else has, but that matters little. I am sure there are many unique systems in use by many people. It is not like retailers are selling any good systems so people who wish really good systems build their own. Some might even work well. I am quite sure there are systems that work better and worse than both your system and my systems. I am always interested in improving my systems. Be sure to share when you have something to contribute.

 

[Essex]

lol, who cares its a timer.... mine is cobbled together from a velleman timer kit, 15min segmet clock and a variable voltage DC transformer powering a 12v windscreen wiper motor with a micro-switch single revolition cutout attached to a 2000psi stainless steel ball valve. (couldent find a 1500psi+ solenoid valve anyware!)
Cost about £15 and gives me independent night/day and infinitely ajustable on/off minimum about .5sec on time.

At the moment im building a +/-1oC automatic temperature controler to power a 60w peltier plate for my 76lbs NOS canister that im using as a nutrent header tank.

Only problem is I have NO IDEA about how much nute-water a plant uses!!!!

Also dont have a clue about chelated iron and how this afects me??? I was planing on using H2O2 anyway as cant clean inside a gas tank!

Ah back to breathin NOS, love empting this tank into my lungs!!!

 

[Northernlights#5xHaze]

Dude I said nothing about cone shapes. Yes atomix did sell a slit nozzle. It is also clearly shown in their patent application. Your point is what? Nozzles are available with slot tips. Personally I have not found them to perform as well as a round cone nozzle. but it is typically the slot tips offered with the cheesy tip cleaner. I am sure the ready availability of a cleaning slot tip had a slot to do with atomix choosing the slot tip. In reality atomix's nozzles were not all that good. The needle cleaning device did not perform well. Actually the use of a nozzle set up in the siphon mode as used by atomixand by the manafcturer naking the cheesy sad knockoff is quite sorry anyway. A gravity feed set up works much better.

I really do not care if you cycle on or off and id not imply that you did or did not. I merely related what research has shown. What you do or do not gain from that is up to you. How you personally run your grow is really none of my concern. If you care to share your experiences that would nice. If not, that is your choice.

My timers also go to 0.001 seconds. I use Omron industrial timer. The short cyclic interval posible are definitely not needed for an aero system and really not a bragging point, but they are sold that way. I buy them because of their dependability and versatilty (other features) rather than their ability for a 0.001 minimum or 999.9 hour maximum cycle option. I have never had the need to use a cyclic time shorter than 1 second. Some people do drop spray times down to 0.5 seconds at night. I believe if you check you will find that while you can cycle down to an on cycle of 0.001 seconds, when doing so your off cycle likely maxs at 9.999 seconds. A 0.01 on allows up to a max 99.9 second off cycle., and a 0.1 on allows for a max 999.9 second off cycle. This would continue up to a 0.1 hr on and a max 999.9 hours off.

I can also say the systems I have no one else has, but that matters little. I am sure there are many unique systems in use by many people. It is not like retailers are selling any good systems so people who wish really good systems build their own. Some might even work well. I am quite sure there are systems that work better and worse than both your system and my systems. I am always interested in improving my systems. Be sure to share when you have something to contribute.

ya iI looked at omrom timers just not as much control as a plc also they are only good for about a million cycles or soanyways im done on this forum there is just way to many experts for me hahaha.

 

[fatman7574]

ya iI looked at omrom timers just not as much control as a plc also they are only good for about a million cycles or soanyways im done on this forum there is just way to many experts for me hahaha.

One cycle per every three minutes approx means a life span for the Omron's timer "relay" (the part that wears out) of almost 6 years. Replace it with another $2 relay and run it another 6 years etc etc. I have OMRON timers that are over 20 years old still in use. I have several dozen that have been in use on 1 minute cycles for over 4 years without the relay needing replacement. The average cyclic lifespan of the relay is a great deal greater than the very conservative number listed by OMRON. A PLC would simply control relays which would have the same limited life span as those used by OMRON or other timer manafacturers.

As far as a PLC, first it was a timer, now it's a PLC, next it will be a claim of using a main frame computer for a timer. As you choose or say. Using a PLC is sorta like renting a huge U-Haul truck to return a single book to the library.

As far as their being too many experts on this thread. Their are a few very knowledgable regulars on this thread. I doubt you will find any scientific reports of reseach studies on HP or air atomized aero systems that Tree Farmer of atomizer have not read. I would say honest, informative, growers who have well researched high pressure aero and atomized aero as a more appropriatte term rather than experts. Yes the quality of most of the information in this thread is above that posted to most of the other threads as most people come to this thread to learn from a few of the regulars rather than to attempt to prove them wrong. Hard to prove people wrong who can show scientific references to back their statements and that have actual experiences that show that information to be true.

 

[fatman7574]

lol, who cares its a timer.... mine is cobbled together from a velleman timer kit, 15min segmet clock and a variable voltage DC transformer powering a 12v windscreen wiper motor with a micro-switch single revolition cutout attached to a 2000psi stainless steel ball valve. (couldent find a 1500psi+ solenoid valve anyware!)
Cost about £15 and gives me independent night/day and infinitely ajustable on/off minimum about .5sec on time.

At the moment im building a +/-1oC automatic temperature controler to power a 60w peltier plate for my 76lbs NOS canister that im using as a nutrent header tank.

Only problem is I have NO IDEA about how much nute-water a plant uses!!!!

Also dont have a clue about chelated iron and how this afects me??? I was planing on using H2O2 anyway as cant clean inside a gas tank!

Ah back to breathin NOS, love empting this tank into my lungs!!!

The amount of spray initially is determined by the volume of your growing chamber. The cycle time is adjusted to suit the requirements of the plants based upon lighting, temperature, humidity, CO2 concentration. You try to idealize those parameters then adjust your nutrient needs and cycle times to those parameters and the plant stages of growth and the size of the strain being grown. Just come back with a chamber volume size and determining an experimental starting spray volume is not that difficult. It will have to be adjusted to compensate for pressure, droplet size average and root vaolumein the chamber. Typically you start out with a cycle that is less than over saturation, move up to over saturation, then back down to just below over saturation. The cycle times can very a great deal depending on the spray volumes and droplet sizes. You fine tune from their to get the roots you wish.

The root systems shown in the cheesy Atomix knock off as good roots are sad in comparison as to what is possible. The ones shown are really no better than what can be produced by a continuous or cyclic low pressure high water volume aero system in chambers rather than small tubes. Definitely not a growing system I would ever sell or put my name on as a designer.

 

[Essex]

The amount of spray initially is determined by the volume of your growing chamber. The cycle time is adjusted to suit the requirements of the plants based upon lighting, temperature, humidity, CO2 concentration. You try to idealize those parameters then adjust your nutrient needs and cycle times to those parameters and the plant stages of growth and the size of the strain being grown. Just come back with a chamber volume size and determining an experimental starting spray volume is not that difficult. It will have to be adjusted to compensate for pressure, droplet size average and root vaolumein the chamber. Typically you start out with a cycle that is less than over saturation, move up to over saturation, then back down to just below over saturation. The cycle times can very a great deal depending on the spray volumes and droplet sizes. You fine tune from their to get the roots you wish.

The root systems shown in the cheesy Atomix knock off as good roots are sad in comparison as to what is possible. The ones shown are really no better than what can be produced by a continuous or cyclic low pressure high water volume aero system in chambers rather than small tubes. Definitely not a growing system I would ever sell or put my name on as a designer.

Fatman, you seem to know ya stuff so your a god to my plans if ya can help!!!!

Im running in a 1m x 1m x 2m tent.

Tents growing conditions:
Mineral oil cooled 600w HPS with double parabolic reflector,
Temps 21oC(min)/40oC(max) controled +/-1oC,
RH 30%(min)80%(max) controled +/-5%RH,
Co2 400PPM(min)/2000PPM(max) (controled) +/-100PPM.

Parts I have for feeding:
Pump 1500PSI 360L/H (Loud so can only charge header tank in day time on timer)
76lbs medical NOS tank (110cm hight x 16cm diameter) about 22L header tank (dont know how much liquid it will hold at 1500PSI??)
2000PSI home-made automated ball valve, minimum on time .5sec
Small 1L fire extinguisher to use as a manifold.

Still to make/get/size:
Root chamber (1m x 1m x?????) how tall should I make it? using a cilinder manifold mounted in center on bottom spraying up. was thinking 70cm tall??
Spray nozzles (brand, amount, spray size, flowrate??????) <----------- bit stuck here!

Want to root/harden off and place inside on 12/12, 24 plants mainly indica's in sog

Please help as I dont understand the math when you involve an unknown variable. (Plants )

 

[fatman7574]

Application is at a rate such that the nutrient solution occupies up to 0.001 percent of the chamber volume at all times. So a cubic meter is 1000 liters so (1000 L *1000 ml/L) * (0.001/100) = 10 ml. That means at all times (with a chamber of one cubic meter) you need up to 10 ml of nutrient inside the chamber in an atomized state. This would mean with such a cahmber empty spray in 10 ml and see how long that remains in an atomized state. If say it appears 25% is gone in 1 minute that would mean every minute you need to spray 2.5 ml to maintain the 10 ml you desire in the chamber. This is without accounting for plant up take after the plants roots are in the chamber. The plants wil need an increased amount of nutrient solution, but not so much that you can actually see water droplets accumalating on the roots and dripping off (over saturation). Water droplets should also not form on the net pots. The atomixed nutrients should just be enough for the roots to feel damp.

 

[OregonMeds]

Essex I would sure like to see the homemade automated ball valve you made, or if nothing else a good description.

And for the record water doesn't compress so that tank will hold whatever volume it holds.

 

[fatman7574]

There will be air in the tank before water is pumped into the tank. That air will compress but not so much as to allow the water to fully replace all its volume. A way to get increased flow before the pressure drops tp pump turn on pressure is to just do as people did for the decades before captive air tanks (bladder tanks) came into use. Simply put a cahck valve and a Teee fitting at the tanks entrance. Put an air snifter valve on the Tee's side branch. This allows you to precharge your tank to your pump cut in setting. Example if you want your minimum pressure at 60 psi then precharge your tank with air to 60 psi before pumping water into it. The air will eventually be dissolved into thwater so you would occasionally meed to drain the tank and recharge it with a full air charge. This will lower the amount of water the tank will hold but it will allow more water to flow at pressure beforethe pump needs to run.

 

[Essex]

Essex I would sure like to see the homemade automated ball valve you made, or if nothing else a good description.

And for the record water doesn't compress so that tank will hold whatever volume it holds.

It's ugly, lol. Its at my m8's workshop else I would take a pic and show you.

It uses a 2-speed, self parking, windscreen wiper motor with 110° sweep and 1" shaft. 12 Volt.

And 1" Threaded, 1 piece, 2000 PSI Working Pressure ball valve.

The motor is mounted on a lump of wood with a stump of windscreen wiper arm atached and a M10 nut and bolt through a hole about 2" from main spindle.



A push rod with ball-race in 1 end is welded to threaded bar with threaded fork at end with M8 bolt through,

Drill hole through arm of ball valve and bolt fork through arm, bolt ball race to wiper arm, asemble tweak and tweak again!

It works well, took a day to plan and make out of car scraps......... would have bought one if i could have found 1500PSI solenide valve!

Dont know how long it will last but good construction/tweaking is ya main problem

 

[OregonMeds]

Didn't you say it had a .5 second minimum on time? How did you get even close to that fast out of a wiper motor are you sure about that?

Fatman thanks for sharing that info on pre-charging a tank with air, never would have imagined that.

 

[Atomizer]

Application is at a rate such that the nutrient solution occupies up to 0.001 percent of the chamber volume at all times. So a cubic meter is 1000 liters so (1000 L *1000 ml/L) * (0.001/100) = 10 ml. That means at all times (with a chamber of one cubic meter) you need up to 10 ml of nutrient inside the chamber in an atomized state. This would mean with such a cahmber empty spray in 10 ml and see how long that remains in an atomized state. If say it appears 25% is gone in 1 minute that would mean every minute you need to spray 2.5 ml to maintain the 10 ml you desire in the chamber. This is without accounting for plant up take after the plants roots are in the chamber. The plants wil need an increased amount of nutrient solution, but not so much that you can actually see water droplets accumalating on the roots and dripping off (over saturation). Water droplets should also not form on the net pots. The atomixed nutrients should just be enough for the roots to feel damp.

i wonder how you came by that info..

 

[Essex]

Didn't you say it had a .5 second minimum on time? How did you get even close to that fast out of a wiper motor are you sure about that?

Fatman thanks for sharing that info on pre-charging a tank with air, never would have imagined that.

Because it is sat on a bench power supply 2-24v DC and has a progresive on/off cycle, I said "about" a .5sec minimum on time allowing for a increase in flow/full flow/decrease in flow I guesstimate a .5 sec "full on flow" if i pushed the voltage up.(I havent even run water through it yet so could all go wrong! )

If I needed an even faster cycle then this could be achieved by removing some turns from the coils in the motor, the only problem is it could burn out if pushed to extreme but with short cycle time and low load compared to a wiper blade I would say I could tweek away safely.

I am going to do a full diary with photo's, plans and construction details and circuit diagrams of all my custom controlers/setup as im hoping some people will enjoy my cheap make it ya-self attitude?

 

[Essex]

Application is at a rate such that the nutrient solution occupies up to 0.001 percent of the chamber volume at all times. So a cubic meter is 1000 liters so (1000 L *1000 ml/L) * (0.001/100) = 10 ml. That means at all times (with a chamber of one cubic meter) you need up to 10 ml of nutrient inside the chamber in an atomized state. This would mean with such a cahmber empty spray in 10 ml and see how long that remains in an atomized state. If say it appears 25% is gone in 1 minute that would mean every minute you need to spray 2.5 ml to maintain the 10 ml you desire in the chamber. This is without accounting for plant up take after the plants roots are in the chamber. The plants wil need an increased amount of nutrient solution, but not so much that you can actually see water droplets accumalating on the roots and dripping off (over saturation). Water droplets should also not form on the net pots. The atomixed nutrients should just be enough for the roots to feel damp.

OK, still none the wiser, lol

what I was thinkin is,
taking an "on" time e.g. 4 sec
guessing an "off" time e.g. 3 min
guessing 20L water+ 2L compressed air at 1500PSI? so about 10L usable till about 750PSI?
not wanting to charge header tank at night for 12 hours

gives me a 43200 sec run time, 184 sec cycle time = 234 cycles/12 hours
10L / 234 cycles is 42ml per cycle
4sec x 234 cycles = 936 sec on
gives me a flow rate of about 641ml per minute??

Do these figures seem nearly enough? Im doubting my tank size now, lol

I just guessed a few plants aint going to use 10L in 12 hours?

 

[fatman7574]

Look at it this way. You need to spray a 10 ml cycle. If you have a one gallon per hour nozzle: (1 gal/hr * 3785 ml/gal)( 1 hr / 3600 sec)= 1.05 ml/sec (10 / 1.05) = 9.52 sec. However that much water is not needed every minute as your plants will not use that much water per minute and the vaporized water will not likely all leave the chamber in just one minute. So even at that rate your talking a max of (9.25 ml/min * 60 min/hr * 24 hr/day) = 13320 ml/day or about 13 liters/day. Likely 1/4 that is closer (3.25 liters per day <24 hours>). IE 0.86 gallons every 24 hours as a starting point. It is typical to use more then 1 nozzle so the spray times will be even less but the total volume sprayed will be the same.

 

[zero1776]

So if my math is right would I need around 100gal of water for a seven day cycle in a chamber 4'x8'x3'? rough estimate just want someone to check and see if Im in the ballpark trying to work out the details now.

Application is at a rate such that the nutrient solution occupies up to 0.001 percent of the chamber volume at all times. So a cubic meter is 1000 liters so (1000 L *1000 ml/L) * (0.001/100) = 10 ml. That means at all times (with a chamber of one cubic meter) you need up to 10 ml of nutrient inside the chamber in an atomized state. This would mean with such a cahmber empty spray in 10 ml and see how long that remains in an atomized state. If say it appears 25% is gone in 1 minute that would mean every minute you need to spray 2.5 ml to maintain the 10 ml you desire in the chamber. This is without accounting for plant up take after the plants roots are in the chamber. The plants wil need an increased amount of nutrient solution, but not so much that you can actually see water droplets accumalating on the roots and dripping off (over saturation). Water droplets should also not form on the net pots. The atomixed nutrients should just be enough for the roots to feel damp.

 

[Paglia]

i wonder how you came by that info..

I'm interested too

 

[OregonMeds]

Because it is sat on a bench power supply 2-24v DC and has a progresive on/off cycle, I said "about" a .5sec minimum on time allowing for a increase in flow/full flow/decrease in flow I guesstimate a .5 sec "full on flow" if i pushed the voltage up.(I havent even run water through it yet so could all go wrong! )

If I needed an even faster cycle then this could be achieved by removing some turns from the coils in the motor, the only problem is it could burn out if pushed to extreme but with short cycle time and low load compared to a wiper blade I would say I could tweek away safely.

I am going to do a full diary with photo's, plans and construction details and circuit diagrams of all my custom controlers/setup as im hoping some people will enjoy my cheap make it ya-self attitude?

I'm all about that make it ya-self cheap attitude, as long as it works and will last, and your valve sounds like it should last if put together right.

Thanks for the info, if I don't find your thread let me know about it.

 

[OregonMeds]

So if my math is right would I need around 100gal of water for a seven day cycle in a chamber 4'x8'x3'? rough estimate just want someone to check and see if Im in the ballpark trying to work out the details now.

Doesn't sound right at all. Post your math.

You have 2.71 cubic meters according to google and if you are going on his calculations, without even accounting for a single plant in the thing, then you are looking at 27.1ml x .25 = 6.775ml per minute and you can go from there.

But that was all hypothetical, and isn't going to tell you much.

 

[Essex]

Look at it this way. You need to spray a 10 ml cycle. If you have a one gallon per hour nozzle: (1 gal/hr * 3785 ml/gal)( 1 hr / 3600 sec)= 1.05 ml/sec (10 / 1.05) = 9.52 sec. However that much water is not needed every minute as your plants will not use that much water per minute and the vaporized water will not likely all leave the chamber in just one minute. So even at that rate your talking a max of (9.25 ml/min * 60 min/hr * 24 hr/day) = 13320 ml/day or about 13 liters/day. Likely 1/4 that is closer (3.25 liters per day <24 hours>). IE 0.86 gallons every 24 hours as a starting point. It is typical to use more then 1 nozzle so the spray times will be even less but the total volume sprayed will be the same.

Ah, I get it! so my flow rate of 641ml per min is with 4 sec on time is over 4x more than enough, so I can just turn down to under 1 sec and allow good headroom for uptake.
641ml per min = 38.46L per hour = 8.4612 gal/hr

ok, so I got a flow rate in mind........

Wicked, your SO COOL 4 helping me!!!!!!

Next problem, starting preasure of 1500PSI droping to 750PSI would give me uneven flow rate/Too high preasure, for nossles I heve found.

So I need to regulate the preasure to a usable PSI with 8.4612 gal/hr flow rate cheap,

Will a standerd Co2 regulator work with water????

Any ideas??

Oh and im going to replace my home made valve with this http://aeroconsystems.com/cart/products/Lake_Axial_Solenoid_Valve-97-26.html good to 1000PSI so if i regulate before the valve should be ok, as I dont like the progresive on/off cycle with my jerry rigged contraption.