Coco Growers Unite!

jberry

Well-Known Member
I went to the expo in S.F. this weekend and talked to a lot of reps from a lot of companies, whille most of them were clueless and didnt know a thing, i was impressed with Nutrifield from Australia. They make a Coco nutrient that i will be testing and if what they say is true then it is much purer then other companies nutrients... The rep claimed that their entire line of nutrients are 85% pharmaceutical grade salts! Most companies dont use any pharmaceutical grade salts while other companies claim to use them, but actually only use 5% percent typically. I may be using NF instead of canna if at all possible... long story but Canna is on my shit list, they work well but lack micro nutrients and are way overpriced and greedy.

The 2-part NF base nutes from australia are much more complete then Canna and their base nutes even contain beneficial elements like silica and amino acids. The downfall is that they do contain EDTA's if your worried about that sorta thing.
 

jberry

Well-Known Member
More about grades of fertilizers for those who are interested:


Nutrient Types

When looking at the huge range of hydroponic liquid nutrient concentrates in your local store you will essentially find two main types: single part (pack) concentrates and two or more part (or multi part) concentrates.

Let’s first look at a multi part (pack) concentrate. Why do they put it into two different packs? The answer to this is very simple: to avoid the precipitation or lock out that occurs when certain mineral elements are placed together in concentrate. The elements separated are the phosphates and sulfates from the calcium source. This is done because calcium reacts with those elements, forming new compounds, i.e. gypsum salts. These new compounds are typically seen as a white precipitate or sludge in the bottom of the bottle (look at most one parts and you will see this).

Multi-part nutrients also offer the advantage of flexibility. When using a multi-part concentrate you can alter the ratios to suit certain conditions. For instance, you could add a little more nitrogen and calcium or extra micronutrients if the conditions warrant it. So you have flexibility as well as a non-precipitated solution to give to your plants.

Single parts, on the other hand, place all the elements together in one bottle. The trade off for this convenience can be lack of full availability of elements and lack of flexibility.

Available now are one-part concentrates that have no precipitation. These are a much better choice, as all the elements contained within the bottle are available to your plants. A very easy way to test whether you have a good one-part nutrient is to shake the bottle vigorously and then decant some into a glass or clear container. After an hour or so, carefully and very slowly pour the solution back into the bottle. If you notice any significant precipitate or sludge on the bottom, then nutrient reaction or lock out has occurred. It is important to know this because when these elements combine and precipitate, they are almost always permanently unavailable to the plant.

If you look at the label on a bottle of nutrients you will see some brands with chelated micronutrients and others without. But what are chelates? And how do they work? A quick reference to the original Greek meaning (claw-like) gives us an accurate explanation. Chelates are molecules that hold (with their claws) other elements within them. Another way of looking at chelates is as a cage with the micronutrient held inside the cage. In respect to plants, chelates function at a number of different levels. Firstly, they protect the element (inside the claw or cage) from undesirable solution, and secondly, they make elements more available to the plant by acting as transporters.

To explore the protection concept further, let’s look at micronutrients that are commonly chelated in nutrient concentrates. Micronutrients, especially Copper, Manganese, Zinc and Iron, are particularly susceptible to unfavorable conditions (i.e. pH shifts, UV light etc). Under these conditions they will become unavailable to the plants, or fall out of solution, making them unavailable for absorption (because they aren’t there!). By protecting our micronutrients with chelates, we make them significantly more available to the plants over a wider range of conditions.

As for the chelates’ role in element transportation, think of them as little microscopic four-wheel-drive trucks carrying a load of goods to the plant. These trucks can pass through any condition or difficult terrain in order to distribute their goods. In other words, chelates carry the elements through the root membrane even when prevailing root conditions would make absorption or transportation quite limited. So chelates are very important to the hydroponic gardener. They make life a lot easier for the plants and for us (no headaches!).

Now that we know a little more about chelates and micronutrients we come to the very important, but often overlooked, issue of element or formulation purity. So what is chemical element purity, and how can a consumer ensure this purity? To help explain this, let’s examine what makes a chemical pure or impure. We can then look briefly at a couple of different chemical grades or standardized chemical purity levels.

The most important factor that makes a chemical or element pure or impure is the relative amount of that element (or elements, in a compound) compared to other elements that are not required. For example, if a chemical, let’s say Phosphorus, is said to be 99.5% pure, this means it contains 99.5% of the required element (phosphorus in this case). The same would be true for a compound like Potassium Nitrate (which contains both calcium and nitrogen). It would contain 99.5% of the multiple elements. The remaining 0.5% would be made up of other elements that are present but not required (i.e. impurities).

It is these other non-essential elements that often pose problems for the hydroponic grower because many are toxic to plants, even in minute quantities. Some common impurities found in many chemicals are Lead, Mercury, Cadmium, Arsenic and Perchlorates. Perchlorates are extremely detrimental to the growth of particular plant species, even in the smallest amount. The other elements listed are all heavy metals. They slow the metabolic processes of the plants, thereby slowing the growth of the plant and hence the yield, which is definitely a very bad thing! This being said, it should be remembered that not all impurities have direct detrimental effects on plants.

As a consumer, the purity question can be overwhelming. Fortunately there are four types of chemical grades (standards) that put this information into perspective. These grades outline the types of chemicals many manufacturers of nutrients use, while clarifying the relative purity of these chemicals.

The four types of chemical grades we need to look at in hydroponics are Fertilizer or Industrial Grade, Technical Grade, British Pharmaceutical Grade and Laboratory Reagent Grade.

Fertilizer or Industrial grade is the lowest (worst). This grade is typically less than 90% pure and contains the largest amount of impurities.

Technical grade is better. It is typically around 90% to 95% pure, but it can still contain quite a lot of impurities, including detrimental elements.

British Pharmaceutical grade is the most preferable grade of material. It is approximately 99% pure, and it is tested to be free of any heavy metals and perchlorates. The standards for this grade are more stringent because these products are typically used in the manufacturing of foodstuffs and pharmaceuticals (which explains why the common slang name for British Pharmaceutical Grade is Food Grade).

Laboratory Reagent Grade is above 99.5% purity, but sometimes it does not undergo specific heavy metal and perchlorate testing.

Many manufacturers make their nutrient concentrates from fertilizer and technical grades because they are significantly cheaper (around one-quarter the price).
 

buraka415

Active Member
@Jberry

wow. bro. its awesome that you're a part of this community providing fundamental & important knowledge to the masses that desire to take the time and learn this stuff.

i cant +rep you cus I already did once - but am throwing out some shout/love/+rep here >> REP!!
 

jberry

Well-Known Member
Thanks bro, heres some other potential brands... im not sure the percentages they use so it could be all advertising, and i didnt pay for them so im not sure what they cost or if they are worth the value but Cash Crop Nutrients and Xtreme Nutrients are claiming to usePharmaceutical Grade salts as well, and they seem to have a lot of the various beneficial elements, hormones, aminos, vitamins, ect...

If im not mistaken i believe that bender420 has used their pk13/14 product called sumo so maybe he could weigh in on them when he comes back around... I think i will prefer the sumo over other pk13/14 products because i noticed that the sumo has humates added to it which is nice, plus it is pharm grade and no other company that i know of is using that high of grade salts for their pk13/14 which is the ratio that i have seen the best results with so far.
 

ZEN MASTER

Well-Known Member
Big up jberry and zenmaster for making my introduction to coco all the more smooth.
no prob man. just remember Jberry is the technical one(different nutes, ph, ec, circulating systems, stuff like that). very knowledgeable, seriously, IMO. Me.......................... i'm Macgyver.LOL.
hey dude welcome aboard. have you ever done any growing at alin any kind of hydro systems, or dirt? if so just remember this: coco is a medium that gives you the nute availability of hydro, with the simplistic ease of soil. kinda the best of both. just remember it is nothing like either for the most part. that is unless you are recirculating your nutes in a rez, then you would be able to apply some of the same aspects of hydro to your coco. me i do straight drain to watse. and because of the brand of coco i use i dont do any ph, ec, or ppm checks or anything of that nature. but thats just me and plus the water supply where i live is pretty much perfect. but like i said that's "MY" situation.
hey what brand of coco are you planning on using? there are some good ones out there and some bad ones. do your research first, this is "ONE" of the best places to start. not only this thread but really this entire site. but anyway I'm out. and like i said ,"Welcome".


PEACE!!!
-ZEN-
 

The Zapper

Member
Geeze, coco really needs to be in a sub-forum. 100+ pages of unorganized info is too much. And it should be under hydro, not indoors. Next season I plan to do coco outdoors.

But I give kudos! This site has the most about coco I've found so far. :D Ive been using it the last year and love it. But it still doesn't have much info on it.
 

ROBinBKK

Active Member
Hi chaps, Im at day 46 and my Kushberrys are starting to look the part, haven't quite put on as much weight as I would have liked by this stage but I have been reliably informed that they will go through another 'thickening' around day 60. Any hints or tips on how to 'increase the yield' at this stage?

My main question is, with coco, should I still flush with just water? and should this happen 2 weeks before harvest?
 

buraka415

Active Member
so if I have 2 and 3 gal containers, and I'm not really getting back 10% in runoff when I feed with 2qts per container - that means I should increase to 3qts or even 4qts? Over-watering seems like it still applies here. But I'm also waiting till they get about 1/2 reduction in weight, which winds up needing to be fed every other day. guess i will be going smaller pots next round perhaps. Can you really get a few ozs per 1gal container - provided other things are dialed in?

im in 100% coco btw
 

docsativa

Active Member
Hey everyone i have a sharksbreath growing well in a .75 gal smart pot. It has been vegged for about three weeks now and i need to start flowering soon. Will it be fine in that size container til harvest? And if not, would i have to trim the roots if transplanting is needed?
 

vdubb808

Active Member
so if I have 2 and 3 gal containers, and I'm not really getting back 10% in runoff when I feed with 2qts per container - that means I should increase to 3qts or even 4qts? Over-watering seems like it still applies here. But I'm also waiting till they get about 1/2 reduction in weight, which winds up needing to be fed every other day. guess i will be going smaller pots next round perhaps. Can you really get a few ozs per 1gal container - provided other things are dialed in?

im in 100% coco btw
I'm not the coco specialist here. But I would just increase the watering until there is run-off. Just my opinion.
 

jberry

Well-Known Member
I'm not the coco specialist here. But I would just increase the watering until there is run-off. Just my opinion.
You are exactly right... you can't water too much, you can only water too often. This is true for any medium, coco, soil, soiless, ect.
 

ZEN MASTER

Well-Known Member
so if I have 2 and 3 gal containers, and I'm not really getting back 10% in runoff when I feed with 2qts per container - that means I should increase to 3qts or even 4qts? Over-watering seems like it still applies here. But I'm also waiting till they get about 1/2 reduction in weight, which winds up needing to be fed every other day. guess i will be going smaller pots next round perhaps. Can you really get a few ozs per 1gal container - provided other things are dialed in?

im in 100% coco btw
your not "OVER WATERING" if you have no run off. if two quarts are not getting a run off for you, it would only make sense to "WATER" more. if 3-4 quarts gives you that 10% run off that you seem to think is the bar, then how would that be "OVER WATERING"? just think about that, ok.
its up to you, but ill tell you this. you cant say that you are correctly guaging the weight of your pots, when you really dont know how heavy they are when they are "FULLY WATERED, WITH A RUNOFF". and again the reason that those pots are drying out every other day is because they are underwatered. so yea smaller pots may be the answer for "YOU", so try that. i guarantee if you feed a 1 gallon pot your "STANDARD" two quarts per container, you'll get your run off. good luck.



PEACE!!!
-ZEN-
 

ZEN MASTER

Well-Known Member
Hi chaps, Im at day 46 and my Kushberrys are starting to look the part, haven't quite put on as much weight as I would have liked by this stage but I have been reliably informed that they will go through another 'thickening' around day 60. Any hints or tips on how to 'increase the yield' at this stage?

My main question is, with coco, should I still flush with just water? and should this happen 2 weeks before harvest?



first off are your nutes for coco only?
but no, never, ever put straight water in your coco. when you do that you strip away all of the NPK, from you nutes, that has bonded to the fibers of the coco. so in a sense for two whole weeks your plant is getting "NO" nutrients at all. now that isnt what you want in the last two crucial weeks before harvest do you? when your plant is trying to do all those things that you love for it to do for you. like swelling, increasing THC, getting denser and harder, resin production, etc.
naw i dont think you you want that. what you should do is gradually decrease the stregnth of your nutes in the last week or two to about 50%. hell maybe even 75% if you like, but always have some nutes mixed in your water, always.


PEACE!!!
-ZEN-
 

ZEN MASTER

Well-Known Member
Geeze, coco really needs to be in a sub-forum. 100+ pages of unorganized info is too much. And it should be under hydro, not indoors. Next season I plan to do coco outdoors.

But I give kudos! This site has the most about coco I've found so far. :D Ive been using it the last year and love it. But it still doesn't have much info on it.



read the entire thread,which i know you haven't, and then say it doesn't have much info. if you can.
 

ROBinBKK

Active Member
ZM, yes they are coco specific nutes, canna range, using the full compliment.

So, no flushing, thats cool with me, will my buddage taste like my nutes?
 

jberry

Well-Known Member
Just use a super diluted strength like 2ml per gallon and/or some sort of simple sugar carbs to keep your beneficials happy and your buffer stable... Just a little cal/mag and some sugar would be fine for flushing... Keep your EC around 0.6 and you will be fine, it can be a little lower but I wouldnt go too much higher.

This is the way to go if you are re-using the coco but if you are going to throw it away, then you can use plain water because you dont have to worry about your buffers being thrown off and honestly your beneficials like mycorrhiza are likely going to be in a dormant stage by this point anyhow if you used any type of flowering booster... The other beneficials get quite disturbed from removing the old roots or letting the medium dry out inbetween grows. The good news is, some of the beneficials will likely still benefit you during the next grow and you will save money by re-using the coco coir.
 

buraka415

Active Member
well i appreciate the replies. I know, looking at the post now, it sounds kinda dume-ass question, however, id rather ask a stupid question than to assume anymore. ive done enuff of that.

ok over n out
 

jberry

Well-Known Member
better to ask... i think too many people in this world have the flaw of thinking that asking questions makes them look dumb, when it is actually the ones who dont ask the questions that never learn anything.
 

docsativa

Active Member
Hey i gotta sharksbreath in a .75 gal airpot. Am i guna be alright to go all the way through flower in it? i vegged it for 3 weeks. should i transplant it into a bigger pot and if i do should i trim the roots? im using 100%coco
 
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