grasshoper031
Active Member
Hi growers, i need to know, what do you think can i use kitty litter instead of perlite? I have some snow white seeds and i would like to try hempy style.
hempy collective re-vised
- Thread starter Azgrow
- Start date
Little Tommy
Well-Known Member
The kitty litter will retain moisture which is the opposite of what hempy is. Perlite does not retain moisture.
Longtimetoker
Member
Azgrow, I want to thank you for a great thread! I read your first one with enough pages to fill a book and of course this one. Xare, if youre out there your thread White Widow Hempy Grow was the first one I read and I highly recommend it to everyone!
Anyway, to cut to the chase, Im on day 25 of my hempy grow and I need some help! As you can see in the pictures my babies are a little sick. Not just one but all 21 ranging from very minor to major. I first noticed this about day 19 and on day 21 noticed it getting worse so I took some pictures. The necrosis started with the bottom single leaf (not the cotyledon) and the 1st and 2nd fan leaves as you can see in the pictures. Yesterday I noticed small necrotic spots on the 3rd and 4th fan leaves of several plants. I fear it is progressing! Heres my grow history to date.
Lights CFL 414 watts 28,800 lumens on an 18/6 cycle
Grow Space 5high x 4wide x 2.5deep (10 sqft)
Air Circulation I built my CFL assembly enclosed with input and output ducting so none of the heat stays in the grow area and is vented with its own fan. The grow area is vented with a 165 cfm inline fan pulling air through the box. There is also a small fan in the grow area for circulation.
Temps 80 to 85 lights on and 75-80 lights out but the weather is getting cooler
Humidity Has been around 70-80% but we are entering our dry period and it should be around 50-70% for the rest of the grow.
Nutrients - General Hydroponics Flora Micro Hard Water and Flora Bloom, using Lucas formula 0-5-10 fluorescent.
Reservoir pH 6.5 (taken today)
Water RO water and well water with a ppm of about 275. Im using the RO water when watering with no nutrients.
Day 1 Placed 22 seeds in a paper towel soaked with ¼ strength nutrients.
Day 3 - Put 21 germinated seeds in Rapid Rooters and the Rooters in 2 liter soda bottles filled with perlite and vermiculite at a ratio of 3:1. Watered with 2 cups of ¼ strength nutrients and had about 1-2 oz of run-off from each pot.
Day 9 7/8 cup of ¼ strength nutrients with a slight run-off
Day 16 7/8 cup of RO water with a slight run-off, no nutrients
Day 21 ¾ cup of ½ strength nutrients with no to very slight run-off
Day 25 1-1/2 cups of well water, no nutrients
And that brings us up to today, Day 25. From what I could find I first thought it was a deficiency but now Im thinking nutrient burn so I just finished watering with no nutrients.
Whats the verdict fellow hempy growers? I sure could use some help on this!
The first three images are from day 21 and images 4 and 5 from day 23
Anyway, to cut to the chase, Im on day 25 of my hempy grow and I need some help! As you can see in the pictures my babies are a little sick. Not just one but all 21 ranging from very minor to major. I first noticed this about day 19 and on day 21 noticed it getting worse so I took some pictures. The necrosis started with the bottom single leaf (not the cotyledon) and the 1st and 2nd fan leaves as you can see in the pictures. Yesterday I noticed small necrotic spots on the 3rd and 4th fan leaves of several plants. I fear it is progressing! Heres my grow history to date.
Lights CFL 414 watts 28,800 lumens on an 18/6 cycle
Grow Space 5high x 4wide x 2.5deep (10 sqft)
Air Circulation I built my CFL assembly enclosed with input and output ducting so none of the heat stays in the grow area and is vented with its own fan. The grow area is vented with a 165 cfm inline fan pulling air through the box. There is also a small fan in the grow area for circulation.
Temps 80 to 85 lights on and 75-80 lights out but the weather is getting cooler
Humidity Has been around 70-80% but we are entering our dry period and it should be around 50-70% for the rest of the grow.
Nutrients - General Hydroponics Flora Micro Hard Water and Flora Bloom, using Lucas formula 0-5-10 fluorescent.
Reservoir pH 6.5 (taken today)
Water RO water and well water with a ppm of about 275. Im using the RO water when watering with no nutrients.
Day 1 Placed 22 seeds in a paper towel soaked with ¼ strength nutrients.
Day 3 - Put 21 germinated seeds in Rapid Rooters and the Rooters in 2 liter soda bottles filled with perlite and vermiculite at a ratio of 3:1. Watered with 2 cups of ¼ strength nutrients and had about 1-2 oz of run-off from each pot.
Day 9 7/8 cup of ¼ strength nutrients with a slight run-off
Day 16 7/8 cup of RO water with a slight run-off, no nutrients
Day 21 ¾ cup of ½ strength nutrients with no to very slight run-off
Day 25 1-1/2 cups of well water, no nutrients
And that brings us up to today, Day 25. From what I could find I first thought it was a deficiency but now Im thinking nutrient burn so I just finished watering with no nutrients.
Whats the verdict fellow hempy growers? I sure could use some help on this!
The first three images are from day 21 and images 4 and 5 from day 23
Xare
Well-Known Member
Hello Longtimetoker,
From your feeding schedule and the seedling pics id say your dealing with deficiency problems.
Bump up your feedings to full strength (5-10) with each watering. They seem to be asking for it, and I think they can handle it. Lucas Formula is low in nitrogen for vegging. Its probably not the best suited nutrient for the young vegging stage of growth. Premature plants require more Nitrogen. But I like it for flower and vegging mothers. And I start off rooted clones on full strength lucas.
Burn would show up on the tips of your leaf, they would be greener and fried looking. Necrosis on the lower leaf shows deficiencies. Overall your upper leaf has a light green nitrogen hungry color.
PH around 6.5 should be ok because it swings down as more acidic nutes are added over time. I find the best PH range is 6.0 - 6.5 being highest before I would take action to change it, and below 5.5 I see problems with lockouts.
From your feeding schedule and the seedling pics id say your dealing with deficiency problems.
Bump up your feedings to full strength (5-10) with each watering. They seem to be asking for it, and I think they can handle it. Lucas Formula is low in nitrogen for vegging. Its probably not the best suited nutrient for the young vegging stage of growth. Premature plants require more Nitrogen. But I like it for flower and vegging mothers. And I start off rooted clones on full strength lucas.
Burn would show up on the tips of your leaf, they would be greener and fried looking. Necrosis on the lower leaf shows deficiencies. Overall your upper leaf has a light green nitrogen hungry color.
PH around 6.5 should be ok because it swings down as more acidic nutes are added over time. I find the best PH range is 6.0 - 6.5 being highest before I would take action to change it, and below 5.5 I see problems with lockouts.
Little Tommy
Well-Known Member
When I first started growing hempy style I shot for a target PH of 5.5-5.7 and as Xare stated, the lower end of that PH range brings out its own set of problems. I now shoot for 5.8-6.0 and the plants seem much happier. You may also want to try less vermiculite. I find that a ratio of 5-1 perlite/vermiculite allows just enough water retention and stability for the plant and I feed with every watering at full strength once clones have rooted and seedlings are on their 5th set of true leaves. The plants may not be too happy with the well water either. Good luck and keep it hempy.
Longtimetoker
Member
Xare and Little Tommy, thank you both for the prompt reply. Your info has put my mind at rest. Not knowing what the problem is can be an adrenalin moment! This is my first grow in about 13 years and I'm a little rusty. Needless to say the techniques of growing have changed considerably. I grew in soil and remember always having problems with fungus gnats (should be a swear word!) and it was nearly impossible to get rid of the little bastards without poisoning the plant, for smoking anyway. I have always been one for simplicity and the hempy method can't get any simpler. And it seems to me root based bugs and disease are practically eliminated. Especially the fungus gnats!
I've been pHing my water to 6.3 and the reservoir reads 6.4-6.5 a few days after. I'm going to lower the pH to 6.0 and try to get a reservoir pH of 6.1-6.2.
After seeing how long I have to go between waterings because of the high humidity in my area (slower evaporation) I have considered using just perlite on my next grow. In June, July and August it's impossible to do an indoor grow without A/C (my grow box has none) because the temperatures are around 92-96 with the humidity 75-95%. So this limits my growing season to September through May. Little Tommy I believe I will use your 5:1 ratio, thanks.
I had my well water checked for free but it was for pH and ppm only, no analysis per say. From experience I know it's high in calcium and iron. The calcium leaves deposits and iron stains it orange, hence the Flora Micro Hard Water formula.
And yes, I will increase nutrients starting with the next watering. I have read much about over watering, over fertilizing and over loving your plants so I didn't want to push it too fast. It turns out I'm too slow!
Many thanks for the help! ---LongTimeToker---
I've been pHing my water to 6.3 and the reservoir reads 6.4-6.5 a few days after. I'm going to lower the pH to 6.0 and try to get a reservoir pH of 6.1-6.2.
After seeing how long I have to go between waterings because of the high humidity in my area (slower evaporation) I have considered using just perlite on my next grow. In June, July and August it's impossible to do an indoor grow without A/C (my grow box has none) because the temperatures are around 92-96 with the humidity 75-95%. So this limits my growing season to September through May. Little Tommy I believe I will use your 5:1 ratio, thanks.
I had my well water checked for free but it was for pH and ppm only, no analysis per say. From experience I know it's high in calcium and iron. The calcium leaves deposits and iron stains it orange, hence the Flora Micro Hard Water formula.
And yes, I will increase nutrients starting with the next watering. I have read much about over watering, over fertilizing and over loving your plants so I didn't want to push it too fast. It turns out I'm too slow!
Many thanks for the help! ---LongTimeToker---
Xare
Well-Known Member
PH swinging up is another sign that your not using enough nutes with your feedings.
Your long time between waterings is perfectly normal for a very small seedling like you have here. A rooted clone acts exactly the same way for a few days until full speed growth kicks in.
With seedlings your going to have to be more patient.
It will get bigger and when it does it will drink and transpire alot more water. When its 1-2 feet tall it will empty a two liter hempy rez in two days. When its 3 feet tall it can do it in a day.
Your long time between waterings is perfectly normal for a very small seedling like you have here. A rooted clone acts exactly the same way for a few days until full speed growth kicks in.
With seedlings your going to have to be more patient.
It will get bigger and when it does it will drink and transpire alot more water. When its 1-2 feet tall it will empty a two liter hempy rez in two days. When its 3 feet tall it can do it in a day.
Little Tommy
Well-Known Member
You may not want to eliminate the vermiculite completely. In addition to holding small amounts of moisture it gives the roots something to hold on to. I tried a grow with 100% perlite and the weight of the buds was laying the plant over and trying to pull the roots up out of the container. I had to stake them at about week 4 of flowering.
Longtimetoker
Member
I had to go out of town for a few days but I’m back. Thank you for the tip on pH swing. Because it was so slight and within limits I hadn’t even considered it (+0.1 to 0.2). Just for grins I’ll keep a record of the pH as I up the nutrients to see what it does.
From the initial watering at planting the next watering was 6 days later, then 7, 5 and 4. The plants in the pictures I posted are on average 2” tall with three sets of leaves directly opposite each other. The pictures were taken on days 21 and 23 and on day 27 they were 3” +. When I watered them last I noticed some nice white roots peeking through drain holes on several pots. I think they are just waiting for some nutrients before taking off. I’m going to give them a full dose of nutrients tonight and then wait and see what happens. I know from reading your thread “White Widow SOG Hempy Grow” that you do not recommend hempy from seed because it does take so long compared to clones. I’ve never grown MJ from clones but I have grown many ornamental plants and shrubs by cuttings and enjoy the jump start you get.
From the initial watering at planting the next watering was 6 days later, then 7, 5 and 4. The plants in the pictures I posted are on average 2” tall with three sets of leaves directly opposite each other. The pictures were taken on days 21 and 23 and on day 27 they were 3” +. When I watered them last I noticed some nice white roots peeking through drain holes on several pots. I think they are just waiting for some nutrients before taking off. I’m going to give them a full dose of nutrients tonight and then wait and see what happens. I know from reading your thread “White Widow SOG Hempy Grow” that you do not recommend hempy from seed because it does take so long compared to clones. I’ve never grown MJ from clones but I have grown many ornamental plants and shrubs by cuttings and enjoy the jump start you get.
Longtimetoker
Member
Thanks for the insight; I’ll keep vermiculite in the ratio. I’ve had potted ornamentals do the same thing when the medium was too light.
zeropercentthc
Member
Does anyone know if perlite expands when you wet it and put it in the container? I'm wondering if say, I buy 5 gallons worth of perlite, will that take up 5 gallons as a growing medium or will it expand to say 10 gallons?
Little Tommy
Well-Known Member
I find that it becomes slightly compacted when wet and takes up a little less volume.
zeropercentthc
Member
Ohh alright, thanks a lot!
Little Tommy
Well-Known Member
I have grown hempy in those 2 lb plastic coffee containers at 3 foot level. Perfect size and worked great!
about how much water does that hold? half gallon?
Longtimetoker
Member
A 2 lb plastic coffee container holds 12 cups (3/4 gallon). A 2 liter soda bottle another favorite of hempy growers holds about 7 cups after the top is cut off, less than 1/2 gallon.
mountaingirl2
Well-Known Member
I just started 6 hempy buckets in flower. Transplanted them for a sick aero set-up. But I've been reading the thread and Dillinger says organic nutes are not recommended. I have been using botanicare in my aero set-up. I do have some gh nutes. Why is it discouraged to use organic? Should I switch to the formula on the gh? I've grown hempy twice and the leaves have turned yellow both times. I may have been overnuting them as I was giving them nutes form the aero res avey 3rd day.