Vegan Organics Aka Veganics With Matt Rize

[Matt Rize]

Thanks matt,
Theres a couple of things i like a bout the coco, firstly, when you screw up with over/under feeding this can be quickly resolved and it really gives you some control of what is in the medium. I just test run off and can see exactly what the plants need. In soil this isnt always possible and if you mess up it can take a long time to correct this. Its also difficult to see what the plant is getting at different stages of growth. The plants just seem to love the coco.

The aact with added food is definatly what i was looking for. This would be great if i could pull it off. I definatly want to go organic. Is it possible to just do a basic tea with molasses and chicken shit for vegging? What about adding calcium in an organic grow?

Nice, I use BioTerra Plus which is peat/coco/bark. I just started using this and have been mostly peat/perlite until recently. I have to run up to Kushland, The Discovery Channel is filming us today for something called Character in Cannabis, not quite sure about that. All I know is it's time to show the world how to smoke full melt clear dome bubble hash.

Yes, use calcium. Cannabis needs Ca almost as much as NPK, and at some points more so than P/K. There are some really good organic natural Ca sources, ie eggshells. I'll post more later but gotta clean up for the camera LOL. Peace

 

[upthearsenal]

The Discovery Channel? I want to see it...

hah either way.. I've made a soft rock phosphate tea, but it never dissolved... should I crush this stuff, or is the stuff you use water soluble and mine isn't?

 

[Matt Rize]

The Discovery Channel? I want to see it...

hah either way.. I've made a soft rock phosphate tea, but it never dissolved... should I crush this stuff, or is the stuff you use water soluble and mine isn't?

And the next day two other guys from the east coast were filming us because they want to do a documentary on the MMj scene, they were talking about Sundance channel. crazy

Yeah man, grind it up. I've used it to mix in and top dress mostly. Maybe dissolve it in some pH down? then add it separate from the tea?

 

[upthearsenal]

The Sundance channel, haha that is crazy.

dissolving it in pH down sounds kind of fucked up... I guess I mainly wanted to make a tea so that I can just add everything together and also use the tea as a foliar feed. Can I ask why specifically pH down?

 

[Matt Rize]

The Sundance channel, haha that is crazy.

dissolving it in pH down sounds kind of fucked up... I guess I mainly wanted to make a tea so that I can just add everything together and also use the tea as a foliar feed. Can I ask why specifically pH down?

The acid will breakdown the rock, chemically, and make the P more available. I just said pH down because I assumed you had some. A mortar/pestle will help the process too. Maybe come citrus juice or vinegar instead of pH down on the already ground up rock to help dissolve it into the tea. Just BSing here, never tried that. Maybe try cooking it a little, separate from the tea of course, to use heat to break the rocks down.

 

[upthearsenal]

right on, I do have that pH down stuff, but I don't like for soil, you know...

I just mixed some SRP with apple cider vinegar and it worked to dissolve it pretty well.

thanks for the advice mang

 

[Matt Rize]

right on, I do have that pH down stuff, but I don't like for soil, you know...

I just mixed some SRP with apple cider vinegar and it worked to dissolve it pretty well.

thanks for the advice mang

Apple cider vinegar! Of course! So glad you are on RIU! Glad that worked. A little natural acetic acid to get the job done and done. I take shots of ACV, sometimes, I hear it's good for you. Sure enough wakes me up.

I did some research on citric acid, aka citrate. It is a chem product, but it also has an important part in the Krebs cycle (aka citric acid cycle). I hear you on not wanting to use the chem products, that's for sure. That post is here:
https://www.rollitup.org/organics/378568-citric-acid-cannabis-horticulture-professor.html

 

[Matt Rize]

Break it down: Matt Rize Veganics (very different than kushman)
BT Plus media. I'm using some grade 3 perlite at 20% on the first two transplants. then doing straight BT Plus. This helps the pot dry evenly.
Food/inoculants:
Alaskan Humisoil - tea starter in late veg to mid flower
mayan microzyme - tea starter in late veg
myco madness soluble and granular - most of the time
white widow for transplants - and early veg
biovega/flores and bioboost - pretty much by the chart
hygrozyme - replaces cannazym and you use way less. plus its organic cannazym is not
HN roots excel - meh, whatever right, they are kinda all the same.
natures nectar N - soy, the only vegan N product I know of, used as needed.
HN natural bloom - Soft rock phos and kelp, used as needed. high Ca content.
Technaflora soluble seaweed powder K - used as needed.
mineral matrix - general supplement, used in tiny amounts throughout.
cal-mag - i mix small boy water and RO water, so I need some extra Cal-Mag, plus its needed to supplement biocanna
humic acid - pretty much all the time, also with foliar
fulvex - Mg and fulvic for foliar
wet betty - surfactant , as needed, depends on how long I have to water and how dry the pots are
oh yeah, how could i forget, molasses. all the time, except the end.

make sure to dechlorinate your water. let it bubble for 24 AND carbon filter it. this is for your micro-organisms, and your plants.

water pH has much meaning, but so does your water alkalinity, which is generally how much carbonates (CaCO3) there are in your water. Carbonates are good because they stabalize pH, but too much effs everything up. These can be tested for, and pet stores have these cheap test strips for aquariums. Don't think your plants are better than those fish! If alkalinity is important for them it is important for your plants.

 

[upthearsenal]

Awesome man. That's a pretty comprehensive list, you must have everything dialed-in to keep things running smoothly.

Speaking of having your system dialed-in... I have a few containers where I've been mixing soil and the one where I removed the guano from the recipe and replaced it with SR phosphate is seriously lacking P, are there any other non soluble fertz that you would suggest? I was thinking maybe greensand, but I know it isn't too strong.. I don't want to try any "vegan" soluble fertz just yet, I'd like to see if can achieve great results with this system I have, I don't have anything in flower yet so I still have time to adjust. and there's always seedlings coming from the t5 area to the veg cab, so I can always evaluate any changes I've made in the soil.

either way, I have a couple sativas that are eating up everything and show signs of deficiencies (even after I feed them with soluble nutrients via folia feedings), and I also have some some bag seed indicas sitting in the same soil, looking green and beautiful... so I know I can't make it perfect and some stains are just finicky but I do know this mix won't make it through even three weeks of flowering..

I might start up a journal but I figure if I'm too lazy to start it, then I'll be too lazy to keep up with it

 

[jesus of Cannabis]

word for word what High Times had in their mag. this month, well January, but its interesting. Would love to get away from the whole chemicals and get back to o'natural, but not likely.

 

[YungMoolaBaby]

It sounds like a lot of work, but the pics and vids tell me it pays off.

 

[Matt Rize]

word for word what High Times had in their mag. this month, well January, but its interesting. Would love to get away from the whole chemicals and get back to o'natural, but not likely.

yeah man, my twin sister wrote that article "ava rize" for kushman, and I contributed in big ways.

Kushman, and veganics is something I've been working with four cycles now. I'll post pics of my jack H that is going on now.

 

[Rayne]

Did BioCanna change the Bio Terra Plus mix? I just read on their web site that it has been pre-fertilized with certified, organic ingredients such as bone meal and bat guano.

 

[Matt Rize]

i checked out ur blog!! i liked it alot but it only addressees experienced growers and mostly deals with making hash. i found useful some of the tips on the bubble hash but i would like if it were more like articles making an encyclopedia for growing our love through your experiences.
ive been reading abit about the vegganics but u need the lovely freedom to grow, in order to do this. ive noticed lets say in stealth grows that being organic and using soil produces quite alot of unwanted waste. so i have been trying to figure out how to make a medium that will be reusable, organic above all, for continuous grows. and i would like to discuss this with u...
otherwise i would love to see you experiment in a number of ways through your blogs.
ive seen your open to discussion so my opinion is take some time to elaborate in a multitude.. i mean write for the new write for those who have started to experience and then for those who have experience... so u dont miss out on readers...

thanks for the feedback. you are so right. as for experimentation... i am working on perfecting the veganics, then back to true experiments. i pretty much consider dropping the poo to be an experiment of sorts.

As for waste... you can re-use your media, but this changes the properties every cycle. And any pests will be perpetuated via this re-use. Indoors, I prefer to start with a clean slate for my media. I plan on changing this in the future but first things first. UptheA said I need to cut out the confounding variables, and he is right.

I'm compiling an actual scientific grow journal right now. Posting it is too much work, so I'm waiting til the end. I'll give you the general layout for one days data, I guessed about the exact numbers because its dark and my journal is in the garden.

11/12/2010
8am: 74 F, 65% RH
12am: 67 F, 45% RH (lights off from 10 am to 4 pm)
6pm: 72 F 65% RH
11:00pm: water. canopy temp actually 79 F. vertical growth = 18 cm, ***FIM-ed
5 gal RO/5 gal small boy -> 7.8 pH, 98 ppm, 63 F
2 tbs molasses -> 6.7 pH, 120 ppm
1 tbs widow -> 6.6 pH 140 ppm
4mL/gal vega -> 6.4 pH 280 ppm
1 mL/gal Ca/Mag -> 6.5 pH 300 ppm
1 mL/gal HN roots -> 6.6 pH 320 ppm
2ml pH down -> 6.4 pH 340 ppm

Bubbled for 25 minutes (because Venture Bros finale came on)
10 gal = Plenty of water, almost time to transplant again. 1 gal mesh bottom -> 2gal mesh bottom. need to turn on 1 more light. possibly hook up air cooled action & switch from 8" to 6" fan. snow on the hills.

 

[Matt Rize]

Awesome man. That's a pretty comprehensive list, you must have everything dialed-in to keep things running smoothly.

Speaking of having your system dialed-in... I have a few containers where I've been mixing soil and the one where I removed the guano from the recipe and replaced it with SR phosphate is seriously lacking P, are there any other non soluble fertz that you would suggest? I was thinking maybe greensand, but I know it isn't too strong.. I don't want to try any "vegan" soluble fertz just yet, I'd like to see if can achieve great results with this system I have, I don't have anything in flower yet so I still have time to adjust. and there's always seedlings coming from the t5 area to the veg cab, so I can always evaluate any changes I've made in the soil.

either way, I have a couple sativas that are eating up everything and show signs of deficiencies (even after I feed them with soluble nutrients via folia feedings), and I also have some some bag seed indicas sitting in the same soil, looking green and beautiful... so I know I can't make it perfect and some stains are just finicky but I do know this mix won't make it through even three weeks of flowering..

I might start up a journal but I figure if I'm too lazy to start it, then I'll be too lazy to keep up with it

Thanks bro. Phos... you know about the slow release aka non-soluble sources. Soft rock phosphate (SRP) being the best IMO. Greensand is good for phos and drainage. But I have the feeling you are in a high yield situation using perlite. I also think the roots can't exude enough weak acids to keep up with the demand. Your girls are needy to say the least (high yield situations). They run at super high levels of respiration and metabolism (i think of them separately). The need bioavailable Phos so they can uptake, but this phos also has to be soluble as part of the soil solution. The weak acid root exudates that the plant is pumping into your media during the dark cycle to make phos available may not be keeping up with your high yield needs. This could be because there is not enough source in the media, or the phos sources in your media are just too slow of a release.

What did you mix in to the media for phos? What media? How long have you been root bound? aka When was the last transplant? peace

 

[Matt Rize]

Amendments and rating:
I had to leave out the poops, which are most of the phos sources. Maybe try some EWC/comfrey/alfalfa tea?

Greensand 0 1.5 7 Mined from old ocean deposits; used as soil conditioner; it holds water and is high in iron, magnesium, and silica - 32 trace minerals in all.
Eggshells 1.2 0.4 0.1 Contais calcium plus trace minerals. Dry first, then grind to powder.
Limestone (dolomitic) 0 0 0 Raises pH, 51% calcium and 40% magnesium.
Limestone (calcitic) 0 0 0 Raises pH, 65-80% calcium, 3-15% magnesium.
Crustacean Shells 4.6 3.52 0 Contain large amounts of lime. Should be ground as finely as possible for best results.
Wood Ashes 0 1.5 7 Very fast acting and highly alkaline (usually used to raise pH). Contains many micronutrients.
Crushed Granite 0 0 5 Contains 67% silicas and 19 trace minerals. Slow release over a long period of time.
Rock Phosphate 0 3 0 Contains 11 trace minerals. Slow release over a long period of time.
Epsom Salts 0 0 0 Provides Mg and acts as a balancer.

Herbal Tea Plant Food

1 t Comfrey leaves
1 t Alfalfa leaves
1 t Nettle leaves
1 Qt boiling water

Steep for 10 min. and let cool until luke warm. Drain the leaves out and add the luke warm tea to your plants to keep them healthy and vibrant!

The reason for adding slightly warm tea (or water) to your plants is that they will be able to absorb the needed nutrients more easily by keeping the root pores open verses cold tea (or water) will have a tendency to restrict the pores, meaning a much slower process of absorption.

Comfrey is called knitbone or healing herb. It is high in calcium, potassium and phosphorus, and also rich in vitamins A and C. The nutrients present in comfrey actually assist in the healing process since it contains allantoin.
Alfalfa is one of the most powerful nitrogen - fixers of all the legumes. It is strong in iron and is a good source of phosphorus, potassium, magnesium and trace minerals.
Nettles are helpful to stimulate fermentation in compost or manure piles and this helps to break down other organic materials in your planting soil. The plant is said to contain carbonic acid and ammonia which may be the fermentation factor. Nettles are rich in iron and have as much protein as cottonseed meal.

 

[upthearsenal]

I'm sure it's just that I don't have enough available... I added only SRP and alfala meal for P.

I used a mixture of 3 parts promix with 1 part FFOF. also added 1 part EWC. Plus kelp meal, alfalfa meal, and SRP at 1 cup per gal. coco and dolomite lime were added, and I used a soil activator as well. I'd say the last transplant was around 10/27 from a party cup to a 4 liter container. A transplant would help but I need the space right now, and this girl would explode is she was moved to a bigger container.

Maybe I should just move up to using fermented plant extracts as supplementation...

I've thought about using wood ash but my main concern is the alkalinity. What about a soft wood ash, gypsum mixture?

 

[Matt Rize]

I'm sure it's just that I don't have enough available... I added only SRP and alfala meal for P.

I used a mixture of 3 parts promix with 1 part FFOF. also added 1 part EWC. Plus kelp meal, alfalfa meal, and SRP at 1 cup per gal. coco and dolomite lime were added, and I used a soil activator as well. I'd say the last transplant was around 10/27 from a party cup to a 4 liter container. A transplant would help but I need the space right now, and this girl would explode is she was moved to a bigger container.

Maybe I should just move up to using fermented plant extracts as supplementation...

I've thought about using wood ash but my main concern is the alkalinity. What about a soft wood ash, gypsum mixture?

I've never used wood ash. hoping nullis or or someone can help out here.

I'm thinking you may want to do multiple transplants next time. cup -> 1gallon -> 2gallon -> 3gallon. This way you can keep adding more amendments as the nutritional needs phase over to mostly PK from mostly NK. HN natural bloom is 0-10-0 and thats about as much bang for the buck as you can get for a liquid SRP based formula. I know... its in a bottle and not certified organic. but the ingredients are: SRP and kelp, with 2% yucca extract. It has 10% Ca too, so I also use it as a Ca supplement because I haven't found any straight Ca amendment that I like.

 

[upthearsenal]

I guess what I wanted to achieve was my recipe turned vegan, it hasn't worked just yet, but there should be some way to figure it out.

By no means am I an anti-bottle kind of guy, and my foliar feed recipe isn't cert. organic... I'll look into getting something, I know that what I have now with a bit more supplementation would be working pretty well.

good advice as always, muchas gracias.

 

[RPsmoke420]

Hey Matt

Had a couple questions I thought I'd throw your way. I attended one of Kyle's classes and it got me interested in trying this out. Awesome thread.

Can you mix hygrozyme or cannazyme in the same reservoir with your beneficials/microherd? And allow them to sit/aerate? Should I be feeding with them every watering?

How much molasses do you generally use?

I remember Kyle Kushman talking about using both Hygrozyme AND sensizyme or Cannazyme. Do you know anything more about using both enzyme products?

Opinions on SM-90? I think I saw you use wet betty, but I just read front to back... so I could be wrong.

Do you use Nectar's Nature Nitrogen for every feeding in veg? What about their P ? And you do not use their K at all? Only use the Soluble Seaweed?

Thanks