How Many Libertarians Out There?

[Hudsonvalley82]

I was just trying to point out how ridiculous it would be to rely on any of the above mentioned people to do anything serious. I also truly believe that if Bush II wasn't associated with Cheney or Rove then we would have had a different (probably not much better) outcome than what we did. He, like Reagan, was a puppet of his divisive, overly influential cabinet.

I didnt ask who you would blame... (you missed Bush BTW)

 

[medicineman]

When the government fails, who will you look to?

If the government fails as you say, I'm pretty much convinced that there will be something to fill the gap. I'd like to know what constitutes failure in your mind. In my mind they have basically failed already. They are all about making the rich richer, eliminating the middle class, and figuring out a plan on how to get rid of the poor. When my SS checks stop coming, that will be the start of the Medicineman revolution. Break out the guns and head to the nearest federal building. When Those poor bureaucrats see me coming, along with a few hundred other SS recipients that I'll gather on the internet and around my area, with guns at hand, the war will began. I'll probably not survive, but the point will be made.

 

[NLXSK1]

When my SS checks stop coming, that will be the start of the Medicineman revolution. Break out the guns and head to the nearest federal building.

I mean fail like go completely insolvent and simply not have the ability to provide you with anything that will support your means...

If China stopped buying our bonds you would not receive a check next month. There is no money, we are beyond broke.

So, your idea to shoot some poor federal worker that is out of a job and just as broke as you does not seem to be the best course of action...

I am going to look toward myself becuase that is what libertarians do.

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

Unlikely. China actually has a great return on our bonds. Not just through interest, exports as well. China needs us just as much as we need them. Soon, Chinas house bubble will blow, like our own, and the debt they own will be worth so much compared to their currency, that they will be begging to lend us money. The same situation makes it just as easy for us to pay them off. That is why we tolerate their currency manipulation as they tolerate our lending. Neither side expects anything else from one another, and we mention none of it. China and the US should be seen as one on a world scale. They are not our lender, we are their customer, and we buy basically their entire economy.

In the next ten years, China will realize that it is pawning its influence on the world by being a slave to its export economy. It will adjust its currency properly in an attempt to bolster its domestic economy and domestic buying power. The US will end up manufacturing again, India plays a major bargaining chip in the entire equation. As the situation stands right now, China would actually benefit from internalizing our debt, just to keep their exports flowing at current rates. China will give us whatever they want.

I mean fail like go completely insolvent and simply not have the ability to provide you with anything that will support your means...

If China stopped buying our bonds you would not receive a check next month. There is no money, we are beyond broke.

So, your idea to shoot some poor federal worker that is out of a job and just as broke as you does not seem to be the best course of action...

I am going to look toward myself becuase that is what libertarians do.

 

[Parker]

If the government fails as you say, I'm pretty much convinced that there will be something to fill the gap. I'd like to know what constitutes failure in your mind. In my mind they have basically failed already. They are all about making the rich richer, eliminating the middle class, and figuring out a plan on how to get rid of the poor. When my SS checks stop coming, that will be the start of the Medicineman revolution. Break out the guns and head to the nearest federal building. When Those poor bureaucrats see me coming, along with a few hundred other SS recipients that I'll gather on the internet and around my area, with guns at hand, the war will began. I'll probably not survive, but the point will be made.

You understand what is happening by this post but you have no idea how to fix it. As long as people allow government interference into our lives our economy will not recover. Do the smart thing, treat the cause and not the symptom.

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

The right thing to do is to raise taxes and cut spending when the economy recovers enough to handle it. Oh wait, that's what we are doing...

You understand what is happening by this post but you have no idea how to fix it. As long as people allow government interference into our lives our economy will not recover. Do the smart thing, treat the cause and not the symptom.

 

[NLXSK1]

Unlikely. China actually has a great return on our bonds. Not just through interest, exports as well. China needs us just as much as we need them. Soon, Chinas house bubble will blow, like our own, and the debt they own will be worth so much compared to their currency, that they will be begging to lend us money. The same situation makes it just as easy for us to pay them off. That is why we tolerate their currency manipulation as they tolerate our lending. Neither side expects anything else from one another, and we mention none of it. China and the US should be seen as one on a world scale. They are not our lender, we are their customer, and we buy basically their entire economy.

In the next ten years, China will realize that it is pawning its influence on the world by being a slave to its export economy. It will adjust its currency properly in an attempt to bolster its domestic economy and domestic buying power. The US will end up manufacturing again, India plays a major bargaining chip in the entire equation. As the situation stands right now, China would actually benefit from internalizing our debt, just to keep their exports flowing at current rates. China will give us whatever they want.

What if China doesnt have the reserves to back us? What if the global currency collapses... What if they are not there to bail us out?

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

What if What if What if...No wonder why you are too paranoid to consider, not believe, but even consider another's point of view. That would just be the propaganda getting to you wouldn't it?

While speaking of what ifs: What if I'm right and we pull out of this mess like we have shown our ability to before?
Most agree that the current economic woes have about a year left on them. Conditions will improve drastically this year, not all the way out, but firmly forward. Then we worry about the deficit. Once we know we are getting out of the woods and are on a robust recovery. I am not disagreeing about the threat of a large national debt, what I am saying is that it's premature to get out of the woods right now and starting to throw money at the deficit. Just like anything else, timing is everything.

If we were to start all deficit reduction now, then the power of each tax dollar spent reducing it would be offset by its negative impact on a fragile economy. Once the economic conditions harden, then that offset factor will play into the equation much less, allowing for a circumstance in which paying off out debt will not hurt our nations progress. Debt is a tool, that yields a product, if you begin to overpay the debt before the product has coalesced then you lose on both fronts.

Don't forget that we have to pay for the entire decade and then some of debt. It will be harsh, but being a whiny libertarian won't help. Pay up, make do, solve the problem, move on. Don't go around ending social security, just stop strangling it, it tosses itself right back into the economy, and reiterates as income revenue. What about medicare? Should we end that? How can anyone afford to pay for coverage at that age? Just let them die? Turn to voluntarism as Hoover unsuccessfully did? Really though, what is your answer?

You have a lot to say about the problems, but no answers at all. You are a member of society whether you like it or not.
You address everything as an individual only, which rids you of the burden of solving any problem faced by a nation. Unfortunately that is not reality. That is why you don't find any answers in anyones point of view, strictly due to you self serving interest in just your little world.

Wouldn't that be great if our actions only effected ourselves, and our circumstances were only influenced by ones self? Too bad that doesn't exist anywhere, nor has it since the dawn of civilization as we know it.

Being a so-called libertarian has only given you a false pretense that you can handle everything yourself, and everything else doesn't involve you...Guess what? Life is more than that. Way more than that. You are directly hardwired into a culture, as is everyone in the world, you are bound by association, proxy, and civil obligation to your fellow human, lest you have no soul. Ignoring that is ignoring life itself.

Life isn't you waking up everyday, life is what you wake up into. You are a direct result as well as an influencing factor on life, as it is on you.

Like I have been saying, if it were at all possible to let everyone go self sufficiently then it would have happened long ago. Societies and Civilizations would never have existed, and we would never have the benefit of this interaction. The case being that indeed mankind has proven to be a culture, or a society, before it has proven to be an individual; I am just saying that I see what you are seeing in the nation, but I disagree that abandoning all responsibility of its current factors by damaging the status quo will yield a better tomorrow than the one we currently have in store.

As much as you want to believe that you are in control, you are not. No one is. Life controls us. If you try to control it you will only harvest bitter fruit. You want to exert your will upon life, when it is trying to teach you a lesson that you aren't getting. I am in no position to tell you what that lesson is, however, it will come, and if you're real lucky, it will come before you die.

 

[NLXSK1]

I asked you what if the government failed and who you would look to.

You never bothered to answer the question. You instead told me how China would bail us out.

I again ask... What if the government failed and went completely insolvent?

You dont seem to have an answer... I bet you have never seriously contemplated it.

If europe and the EU fails then all of the markets will fail, it is a house of cards... China cant keep it standing in a breeze... The mother of all bubbles is coming and you are worried about wringing more pennies out of rich peoples paychecks.

So naive... Government is all you have, you have no belief in yourself nor your neighbor... Good Luck.

 

[UncleBuck]

If europe and the EU fails then all of the markets will fail, it is a house of cards... China cant keep it standing in a breeze... The mother of all bubbles is coming

if i poop on the sidewalk, the president may slip and fall on it, debilitating himself. joe biden might then have a heart attack and boehner may assume the presidency.

hey, it could happen. it is about as likely as what you're proposing.

you are always good for a laugh lately

So naive... Government is all you have, you have no belief in yourself nor your neighbor... Good Luck.

i think you missed the part where he so eloquently stated his belief in his neighbor and outlined the reasons for which your libertarian nonsense is the acme of naivete.

'hooked on phonics' might be what you need.

also, a cushy beanbag chair would probably fit well in that one corner of the basement of your parents' house that you inhabit

 

[NoDrama]

In the long run you pay the shit off through revenues on a healthy economy. When the US is in full swing, its tax revenues are enormous. Tax cuts and medicare part D (which is like over paying for health care on the public dime, largely written by the private sector health care forces) Brought us here. Recession spending is like war spending. You have to do it. There is no other way out. You deal with the future as it comes. We will pay it off just like it took until clinton to pay off WWII. Where were the debt hawks then? I love you guys, your only idea is to cut spending to pay off debt.

If your in debt in your home, cutting spending occurs, however, you can't pay for all your debts by spending cuts, you would starve to death. You have to increase revenue. There is no other way. Debt hawks should be pleading for lower spending, along with the expiration of the bush tax cuts alike. But what did you morons call for? Keep the stupid tax cuts and throw everything else out.

If you are worried about the future, pay your taxes and keep on himming and hawing about spending. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

Why should we pay off debt? I didn't create that debt. Fuck those bankers , they can take a huge haircut, I say we default on all that debt, let the businesses who made bad decisions fail. pick up the pieces and move on.

 

[NoDrama]

China won't bail us out, China is a Net SELLER of US Dollars and T-Bills.

 

[NLXSK1]

As much as you want to believe that you are in control, you are not. No one is. Life controls us. If you try to control it you will only harvest bitter fruit. You want to exert your will upon life, when it is trying to teach you a lesson that you aren't getting. I am in no position to tell you what that lesson is, however, it will come, and if you're real lucky, it will come before you die.

What does any of that have to do with the government?

Yes, I am not in control of certain aspects of my life but I am responsible for my life. I can plan for what is to come, I can save for hard times and for retirement and I have enough respect for my neighbor to think he can do the same. You live in the middle of an illusion. There is no money, it is all just numbers in some computer. All it takes is for people to start doubting those numbers and it all falls apart. And it will...

And when that lesson comes, I hope you have stored some food and water and you can provide shelter for your family. Because the government is not going to be around to take care of you. And I hope the realization will come to you before you die too...

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

Dude, I can't answer that cuz I am not in that situation. Chances are, crazy apocalypse motherfuckers like your self will start killing everyone in fear of them coming to get you. Life goes on, you turn to what you turn to. Yourself, your family, your community, whatever power structure is on place. I would imagine that it would become a police state until austerity measures were put in place.

But thats not important at all. At all...Again you are using phantom scenarios to justify anything you want. That is not real or probable. If you are so well to do and planned accordingly, then why are you so upset with minor things. How come you didn't plan for that?

What if we do become a socialism, and the powers to be do come after you? Who the fuck cares.

You must lead a terrified life with such thoughts owning your mind...

What if What if What if...

Again yo

I asked you what if the government failed and who you would look to.

You never bothered to answer the question. You instead told me how China would bail us out.

I again ask... What if the government failed and went completely insolvent?

You dont seem to have an answer... I bet you have never seriously contemplated it.

If europe and the EU fails then all of the markets will fail, it is a house of cards... China cant keep it standing in a breeze... The mother of all bubbles is coming and you are worried about wringing more pennies out of rich peoples paychecks.

So naive... Government is all you have, you have no belief in yourself nor your neighbor... Good Luck.

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

It has a lot to do on your life view, as that is what judges your political outlook. Clearly you spend a lot of time worrying about the future. Looking for any crumb of distress to feed the fire that is your illogical fear of mass failure. Why don't you stop worrying about shit, and solve the issues at hand instead of spending your days preparing for a false failure, that you could have a hand in preventing if you saw fit.

But you cower, and "prepare" and "plan", which means feed a delusion of things that aren't real, and ignoring the things that are that you can control. I hold my own, but had one fuck of a hard life doing so. I work my ass off and contribute to my community and its government. I have been at rock bottom. My life could have been over right then and there, and guess what, I got lucky. I had a lot of help, both from the government and from a network of support. Guess what, I am one of two people I know that have survived. Its a tragedy that you believe so much in personal accountability that you think it is like a science.

Charities can't solve everything. A human needs basic things to stay alive, the government does what it can to supply those things to stave off a further fall in that persons life. Its called compassion. It keeps people off of the streets, it gives second chances, it allows for a human to make mistakes and still eek out a life.

You sir, live a life thinking that you know exactly how the other person is. You have seen it all. Judgment is final. Who have you helped outside of your family? What do you contribute?

You live a live of presumptions, hence why you see it so easy to write off your fellow citizens.

I am naive? I actually feel good about myself, and my future. I know that at any given moment I could die, and be known to help others just as much as I helped myself. I haven't wasted a precious minute on this earth feeling afraid of the future, trying like hell to cling to the past. I haven't stocked up a bunker for the "big one". If it happens, it happens.

Numbers in a computer??? HAHA...Look out, they were just numbers on paper before this, next they will be numbers on atoms, and we'll have that to fear.
Stop your fear mongering.

Look at your grabbing for things to fear. You know you are irrational, and are desperately trying to find possible threats to make your actions look justified.
You have totally written off this nation already, hence why you want it to fail so badly. If it doesn't fail, you'll be angry at that next.

Ironically you would be the person to call me unamerican, when it seems to me that you are the one betting on it failing.

I ask again, what is the answer that you have for our dilemma other than anarchist failure? What do you see as a rational, probable course of action to prevent such an occurrence?

What does any of that have to do with the government?
Yes, I am not in control of certain aspects of my life but I am responsible for my life. I can plan for what is to come, I can save for hard times and for retirement and I have enough respect for my neighbor to think he can do the same. You live in the middle of an illusion. There is no money, it is all just numbers in some computer. All it takes is for people to start doubting those numbers and it all falls apart. And it will...

And when that lesson comes, I hope you have stored some food and water and you can provide shelter for your family. Because the government is not going to be around to take care of you. And I hope the realization will come to you before you die too...

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

How mature of you...I didn't make the debt?

No one asked you if you made the debt. Why should we ever pay a tax? What has the government ever done for us?

Wow...Then off to fuck those bankers. Who we just tried to hike taxes on, and you and your buddies wouldn't have it. No way, no tax increases at all.
MAKE SENSE!
If you don't like the bankers, tax them and shut up.
If you don't like taxes move some place that doesn't have them...Soon please.

How about fuck you for not paying attention until recently.
Did you even know about deregulation until you started mouthing off to a liberal trying to warn you that it was the wrong way??

Why should we pay off debt? I didn't create that debt. Fuck those bankers , they can take a huge haircut, I say we default on all that debt, let the businesses who made bad decisions fail. pick up the pieces and move on.

 

[NoDrama]

Hey Hudson,I just wanted to know if you are married and or have children.

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

I am both a husband and father, also an uncle several times over, soccer coach, tutor, volunteer, employee, tax payer, liberal.

 

[NoDrama]

How mature of you...I didn't make the debt?

No one asked you if you made the debt. Why should we ever pay a tax? What has the government ever done for us?

Wow...Then off to fuck those bankers. Who we just tried to hike taxes on, and you and your buddies wouldn't have it. No way, no tax increases at all.
MAKE SENSE!
If you don't like the bankers, tax them and shut up.
If you don't like taxes move some place that doesn't have them...Soon please.

How about fuck you for not paying attention until recently.
Did you even know about deregulation until you started mouthing off to a liberal trying to warn you that it was the wrong way??

My buddies? prey tell who are they? You know nothing of my "Buddies".

Deregulation , yep 40,000 new laws just for this year alone. Blame it all on deregulation all you want. When i see 50,000 laws off the books each year ill believe in deregulation.

Mouthing off? LOL you really don't understand the polemic argumentative do you? Ever take a debate class? Im not mouthing off to you, im calling you out to defend your position with facts, not mindless drivel. Dare you say you have not already learned a few things?

For the record, if I argue against you , it doesn't necessarily mean I don't support your viewpoint. Trying to Label me will only Hoist with your own petard.

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

HAHA petard is a funny word.

Buddies meant figuratively as your political peers.

I didn't pick up on your tone being debate-worthy, my apologizes.

I still stand firm that your stance is irresponsible at best, and a major contradiction.

I didn't make the debt, thats like when your kids have friends over, a mess is made and you tell your kid to clean it. What do you get? "I didn't make the mess". That is exactly what you are saying. Well how about this: you go ahead and round up all the people responsible, and tell them this is their mess. Explain to them that you had no hand in it what so ever. You are an innocent and bear no accountability as a citizen what so ever.

Thats a joke man sorry, im not letting you off the hook on that one...