Impossible! The deficit is falling as well as unemployment Obama wrecking economy

[twostrokenut]

I did. There wasn't much else there.

The dollar is whatever Congress says it is.

That's true if you accept Congress as your master I suppose....Their job is to maintain the value of, not assign a value to, a dollar. It' what we the people say it is and Congress is a representation of us. Later, no more threadjacking for me. Time to get back to Obama's role in the deficit.

 

[tokeprep]

Everything is a thing. But some things are imaginary and some things are real. Rather than being physically identical to the thing it represents, a note describes what it represents....just as if you wrote a note about your day it would describe the events....A note represents an idea of a physical thing, which is a thing that exists only in the mind, true or false?

I presume your main premise is that fractional reserve banking creates something that isn't real. Except it is real. When the banks loan out their "fake money," they enable the creation of real value, which enables the loans to be repaid. For example, if a bank loans a farmer $100,000 to plant wheat and he plants wheat worth $500,000, value is created; if a bank loans a builder $50 million to build a development and they sell the houses for $100 million, value is created.

Fractional reserve banking has propelled us where we are by unlocking collective societal value and enabling collective societal investment. Whether it's "real" or not is totally irrelevant so long as it works and the outcome is better than it would otherwise be.

"They" didn't fix the price for centuries. "We" did. Cause "We" had more than "They" did.

Let me say it..................again.............
Explanation of how to obtain market price for a coin: Go to a coin dealer.

I don't understand your assertion that we fixed the price and not the government. The government did indeed fix the price.

And once again, if the government fixes the prices--as it would probably have to in order to keep that silver in the coins, just as it always did previously when there was silver in the coins--there would be no market price and no coin dealer willing to buy your coin based on the market price of silver, which wouldn't exist. You're imagining keeping the silver coins and having the free market in silver prices, combined together, even though they weren't historically. We got free markets in gold and silver only when the government ceased using them for monetary purposes.

 

[tokeprep]

That's true if you accept Congress as your master I suppose....Their job is to maintain the value of, not assign a value to, a dollar. It' what we the people say it is and Congress is a representation of us. Later, no more threadjacking for me. Time to get back to Obama's role in the deficit.

Their job according to who, you? The constitution doesn't assign any such duty.

 

[thekong]

I have never understood comparing two politicians, are we saying that one is less corrupt than the other? that is like watching two kids with down-syndrome and arguing which one is more handicapped. Not slamming handicap people, just making an example. Is there any real difference between a republican and a democrat, they all are screwing us every turn. The numbers of unemployment and monitary value have no real importance due to the fact that the corrupt and greedy government are extremely biased and selective about what they count and don't count. Basically, if you are anything lower than lower-middleclass, you don't count and they aren't worried about you except the money they make off of you. If they give you .50 cents for welfare, you bet that they are taking another dollar out of the budget and say it costs them that much to get your money to you. Just my opinion from what I see going on in the world. Think of how much they make off of locking up the poor for bullshit, this is the only country in the world that jail is big business, they lock up more of their cititzens per capita than any other country in the world, and the even crazier part is those record numbers come mostly from the lower class 15%. that is nuts.
K

 

[twostrokenut]

Article 1 Section 8 Clause 5

"To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;"

Does that say set or assign, the Value thereof?



What happens when in your scenario, when people aren't successful, like the farmer does not turn 100k into 500k, so he doesn't repay the loan or defaults...then is subsidized as a result. Who ultimately pays for that "toxic asset"? Who cares right, you aren't even reading this and I don't want to waste my time anymore. Fractional Reserve Lending is diluting the paper currency, not helping anything. We know it is dilluted because we are intelligent enough to know that one silver dollar in 1955 was worth about what a FRN was in 1955 ....and today the silver dollar is worth 22.56 FRN's. How you figure any different IDK and don't care anymore.

Don't assume. I defined and explained very clearly what "wasn't real" you said a silver dollar and a paper note for a dollar were the same "things"......... go read it again if you want...if you don't whatever. Likewise too go invest in paper if you want hell I keep hearing this is a free country.

BTW all the bills that your collective society create require lots of resources, like money, and we're almost out. Collectivism is just another way of saying you would like others to pay your bills. That is all. So long and thanks for all the fish.

 

[tokeprep]

Article 1 Section 8 Clause 5

"To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;"

Does that say set or assign, the Value thereof?

It says regulate the value. Any action Congress takes is a regulation of value.

What happens when in your scenario, when people aren't successful, like the farmer does not turn 100k into 500k, so he doesn't repay the loan or defaults...then is subsidized as a result. Who ultimately pays for that "toxic asset"?

Other bank customers or the bank depositors, either in the form of higher interest rates or lower interest payments, absorb the costs of bad loans. Of course, loan losses in pretty much any category are actually quite low.

Who cares right, you aren't even reading this and I don't want to waste my time anymore. Fractional Reserve Lending is diluting the paper currency, not helping anything. We know it is dilluted because we are intelligent enough to know that one silver dollar in 1955 was worth about what a FRN was in 1955 ....and today the silver dollar is worth 22.56 FRN's. How you figure any different IDK and don't care anymore.

Don't assume. I defined and explained very clearly what "wasn't real" you said a silver dollar and a paper note for a dollar were the same "things"......... go read it again if you want...if you don't whatever. Likewise too go invest in paper if you want hell I keep hearing this is a free country.

You're failing to comprehend that the value of silver was based on price fixing. Your silver dollars would not be equivalent to $22.56 today, if they had been minted this year, because there would be no market spot price for silver. The only way your silver dollars would be worth $22.56 today is if your employer paid you in silver coins from the 1950s that you could sell in the way you previously described.

Obviously this must be true because coins that contained the same silver content literally bought less over the decades they were issued--they didn't appreciate in purchasing power over time or maintain the same power.

BTW all the bills that your collective society create require lots of resources, like money, and we're almost out. Collectivism is just another way of saying you would like others to pay your bills. That is all. So long and thanks for all the fish.

Why does those bills require money (I presume you mean gold and silver)? They don't.

 

[twostrokenut]

I have a 2013 silver eagle, minted this year, it is worth 22.60 right now. I have a 1955 silver eagle, minted in 1955. It is worth 22.60 right now.

 

[twostrokenut]

You explained how collectivist society's bills get paid when you explained what happens when loans don't get paid back.

You should now explain how "loan losses in pretty much any category are actually quite low" with some actual fact....do you actually think the OP means that we will be debt free in 3 years?

 

[tokeprep]

I have a 2013 silver eagle, minted this year, it is worth 22.60 right now. I have a 1955 silver eagle, minted in 1955. It is worth 22.60 right now.

Right. And if silver were still in all of the coins, your 2013 silver eagle wouldn't be worth $22.60 right now because that market price wouldn't exist. That's the point.

Indeed, you didn't pay $1 for your 2013 silver eagle, you presumably paid more than $20 for it. And that fact destroys any suggestion that the value has been held up: the sole purpose of the coins now is to meet collector and investor demand, so they aren't used at face value. The future price will depend on the spot price of silver. If you bought your silver eagles a couple years ago, you're currently down huge.

 

[tokeprep]

You explained how collectivist society's bills get paid when you explained what happens when loans don't get paid back.

You should now explain how "loan losses in pretty much any category are actually quite low" with some actual fact....do you actually think the OP means that we will be debt free in 3 years?

Bank loan losses are entirely distinct from the topic of the federal debt or deficit. But if you want to see the data about loan losses: http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/chargeoff/chgallsa.htm.

 

[ginwilly]

I've enjoyed the back and forth between twostroke and tokeprep. Informative and civil, well done guys. I wish all discussions were done as well here.

 

[Mr Neutron]

The federal government doesn't pay the Fed interest.

Right, the taxpayers do.

Inflation is irrelevant because wages have kept pace with it; there is no taking of wealth through inflation unless people are dumb enough to save cash instead of buying investments.

What about people who do not get wages? Those on fixed incomes or living on their savings?

Here's a little piece of history that should be remembered (the names have been changed to protect the guilty):

Amsterdam, March 1637 (Ruyters): The latest Dutch tulip harvest is in, and experts
confidently predict another bumper year for tulip growers and tulip investors alike. Billionaire
hedge farmer Jon Paulsen is rumoured to have added hyacinths to his multi-strategy offering and
has just launched a fund denominated in daffodils. Tulip stocks climbed by a few millimetres, as
they are prone to every day if they grow at their normal organic rate; Couleren bulbs rallied
another 2 guilders in heavy Antwerp trading; Rosen and Violetten bulbs ended the trading session
more or less unchanged, albeit a bit squashed, and at record highs. The market has been further
buoyed in recent weeks by a tide of manure issued by the leading tulip advocate Pol Kruygman
from his op-ed column in the New Amsterdam Times, ‘Witterings of a Tulip Fanatic’. Kruygman
promised to keep the manure coming, whether anybody wanted it or not.
The popularity and rising value of this colourful perennial plant evidently know no bounds and this
is surely a golden age that is never likely to end. Future generations will evidently marvel at the
effortless wealth on offer to investors committing their capital unreservedly to tulips today. Dutch
housewives bedecked in tulip hats, tulip scarves, tulip dresses and tulip shoes danced gaily in the
streets of Tuliptown (formerly Amsterdam) whilst smoking tulip cigarettes, slurping tulip soup, and
drinking tulip beer from tulip beer glasses with tulip straws. Given that the anthocyanin Tulipanin is
toxic to horses, cats and dogs, the inhabitants of Amsterdam have long since stopped rearing
horses, cats and dogs; they have chosen to rear tulips as pets instead.
Many Dutch households have also abandoned the traditional export trades in herring, gin and
cheese in order to concentrate their energies where the action is: tulips. Tulip promoter Dirck
Pieter Tulip commented:
“Tulip tulip tulip ! At my tulip worship museum and emporium, ‘All Things Tulip’, you can see the
very latest in tulip technology, tulip breeding and tulip trading strategies.”
Dirck Pieter Tulip is offering courses in tulip cash / futures arbitrage. Price: One Tulip. Mr Tulip
was formerly a stockbroker. In addition to curating his tulip museum he also edits the specialist
tulip fanciers’ magazine, ‘Bulb !’“I have just sold my house, its contents and all my family in order to speculate indefinitely in tulips,
heavily on margin, and advised all my friends to do the same,” he added. “What can possibly go
wrong ?”
Tulip Reserve Bank Governor Ben Berninckje agreed, and greeted the news of the tulip harvest
warmly.
“There has never hitherto been a nationwide fall in tulip prices,” he pointed out,
“So evidently that can never ever happen.”
And Governor Berninckje pledged to support tulip prices down to the very last taxpayer, now
that the tulip-related economy accounted for about 99.6% of Dutch GDP. Lending against tulips
accounted for the other 0.4%.
Analysts at the business network ZeeNBZee were quick to voice their compliance with the almost
universal approbation for the pretty, multi-hued offspring of Tulipa gesneriana.
“Tulips are definitely the way forward,” said one.
“Although I have only been in the market since about 7.30 this morning, this is the most incredible
and exciting thing I have ever seen. So I recommend long tulip positions to anyone witless enough
to listen to me.”
New derivative markets in tulips are sprouting up daily to enable people to speculate in tulip price
appreciation without having to worry about the tiresome fuss of actually taking delivery of the
attractively patterned flowers. And prices are continually reaching new highs, even in new digital-
only varieties of the plant, or bit-tulips. Talk of tulip millionaires is all the rage. Popular balladeer
Jostin Beebor is said to have been an early investor, but he is rumoured to have sold all his tulip
positions now.
Sceptics of the tulip cult are obviously fusty-minded dullards who lack imagination, vision or a
healthy sense of disbelief. One sceptic, speaking on condition of anonymity although his name is
Cornelis Tromp and he resides at 33 Medomsley Road, Utrecht, remarked,
“Something about this environment feels dreadfully wrong to me – a contradiction in terms of
logic, common sense and fundamental economics. Every day new tulips come onto the market and
the supply of them has never been higher, and yet every day the prices also reach new records.
But the market is drowning in tulips and there is almost nobody left who doesn’t already own
them. There’s not a whole lot you can do with them. And they only bloom for a week. Unless the
laws of supply and demand have been magically rescinded, this fantastical bubble in dotcom stocks
US property bank stocks subprime credit government bonds equities tulips is likely to end very
badly, particularly for neophyte investors who have been urged by irresponsible reserve banks and
an unregulated financial media into the tulip market to the exclusion of just about everything else.”
Commentators aside from Mr Tromp, however, were unanimous in their confidence that for as
long as the tulip reserve banks stood ready and willing to throw liquidity at the tulip market, and
for as long as that market was going up, there were no clouds on the horizon, although the
weather correspondent for the New Amsterdam Times pointed out that there was actually a
gigantic, dense, threatening mass of clouds on the horizon.

Tim Price Director of Investment PFP Wealth Management 13th May 2013.

 

[twostrokenut]

• Right. And if silver were still in all of the coins, your 2013 silver eagle wouldn't be worth $22.60 right now because that market price wouldn't exist. That's the point.

  
  
  I am using facts to show how I form my opinion, your point is based on your opinion alone..... Ya bro I can do that too watch this: IF silver were still in the coins YOUR Federal Reserve Note wouldn't exist right now so there would be no way to compare "worth"....the "worth" you refer to is simply a ratio of FRN's to silver dollars 1:23..................
  
  The worth of the coin never changes....if it takes more notes to buy the coin then the notes are losing value.
  
  The market for silver is not solely monetary either dude as I tried to hint earlier. Jewelry, silverware, Dentistry, Photography, medicine, clothing, optics, electronics, musical instruments making polyesters and making S1 Cannabis seeds.......
  
  
  ​

 

[Dr Kynes]

Right. And if silver were still in all of the coins, your 2013 silver eagle wouldn't be worth $22.60 right now because that market price wouldn't exist. That's the point.

Indeed, you didn't pay $1 for your 2013 silver eagle, you presumably paid more than $20 for it. And that fact destroys any suggestion that the value has been held up: the sole purpose of the coins now is to meet collector and investor demand, so they aren't used at face value. The future price will depend on the spot price of silver. If you bought your silver eagles a couple years ago, you're currently down huge.

youre looking at the whole thing upside down.


silver in coins before 1934 = the value of the coin. a quarter contained 25 cents worth of silver at the time it was minted. if the price of silver went up the quarter would increase in value and buy more shit, if the priooce of silver went down, the coin would buy LESS shit.

this is the reason the Spanish Milled Dollar (Piece of Eight) was chosen as the standard. the spanish 8 Real coins were set at 0.8 troy ounce, and were non-variable in their assay and weight. a spanish dollar minted in 1500 was exactly the same size weight and purity as one minted in 1800. this ensured the shopkeeper or horse rancher could be certain that he was getting the right price for his transaction.

the big silver strikes in the west destabilized the silver price and necessitated a standard fixed currency, and the currency was fixed at 1 US dollar = 24 grams of silver while the spanish real was 27 grams, thus the continental coins were LESS valuable and bought less than the spanish real. eventually the spanish real coins were melted down for their silver, or hidden in sacks under pine trees until the tree was cut down some 120 years later.... while the US dollar became the standard against which coins were measured up til 1964 when the specie standard was abandoned and we became an entirely fiat economy.

the disappearance of silver from our coinage was the direct result of devaluing of the currency, not the inflation of prices. when making a coin becomes m ore expensive than the coin is worth then SOMETHING has changed.

has copper become so rare and hard to get that a penny must now be made of zinc, or has the value of the penny dropped so low that the copper is worth more than the coin it makes?

it's a chickenm/egg connundrum, until you examine all the other things which have become no much more expensive, and suddenly the "wild fluctuations" in the silver price vanish and you are left with wild fluctuations in the value of the currency.

copper didnt get more expensive, pennies lost nearly all their value. land hasn't become super expensive, the currencies you trade for that land have become weak and ineffective.

$1 doesnt even buy you a soda any more, and this is not because the cost of water sugar and flavourings has increased, but the dollar just doesnt carry as much value.

it doesnt require more work to grow wheat, in fact it requires LESS work to grow it, but the price of bread has not fallen, it has more than quadrupled since the mid 80's. this does not indicate that bread is rarer, harder to get or more valuable, it means the dollar is weaker than ever before, and soon we will need a wheelbarrow full of c-notes to buy a sandwich.

all your ring-around-the-rosie jibber jabber doesnt change the simple fact, that the dollar is sinking and everything else, from the stock market to the price of gold only looks so much higher because we are standing at the bottom of a really deep hole.

and the hole is getting deeper.

if we went back to the constitutional standard of 1 dollar = 24 grams of silver we would be unable to make good on all the outstanding notes, and would thus be bankrupt. if we were to divy up all of the treasury's silver stockpile among all the outstanding notes and establish that value as the standard a dollar would be worth NOTHING. fiat currencies have trapped us in an endless cycle of inflation (devaluing of the currency with the result of apparently increasing prices for goods) and even the term "Inflation" is deceptive, creating a false impression of increasing something, when it should be described as it was in times past as "Debased Money" which provides the appropriate air of judgmental scorn.

considering how dramatic the slope has become, we need something even more disturbing to describe "inflation" perhaps "Financial Syphilis" or "Money Cancer" or "Bank Pox"

by examining the spiraling debasement of our currency from the relativistic position of the dollar it seems that everything else is shooting skyward, spiraling out of reach, but from the position on top of a sack of diamonds or gold or silver, you and the dollar are are falling off a cliff into a deep deep chasm.

one of these perspectives is accurate, hint: it's not the one you have been using in your fervent defense of the fractional reserve money machine and the endless debt cycle.

 

[Dr Kynes]

• 
  
  
  
  I am using facts to show how I form my opinion, your point is based on your opinion alone..... Ya bro I can do that too watch this: IF silver were still in the coins YOUR Federal Reserve Note wouldn't exist right now so there would be no way to compare "worth"....the "worth" you refer to is simply a ratio of FRN's to silver dollars 1:23..................
  
  The worth of the coin never changes....if it takes more notes to buy the coin then the notes are losing value.
  
  The market for silver is not solely monetary either dude as I tried to hint earlier. Jewelry, silverware, Dentistry, Photography, medicine, clothing, optics, electronics, musical instruments making polyesters and making S1 Cannabis seeds.......
  
  
  ​

well specie coin values are not always set in stone, the metals in question are still subject to Utility, Desirability and Scarcity to establish their value against goods and services.

after several huge silver strikes in the western US silver's value fell dramatically, the discovery of the new world's resources drove down the value of gold and silver in the old world too.

even the formerly lucrative spice and silk trade has become a high volume game since if i REALLY REALLY needed some cinnamon i could fly off to india and come back the next day with a duffel bag full.

specie metals like gold, silver, platinum, copper palladium, etc have all maintained their value against the things we MUST have to live, like rice, wheat, beef, and bacon, and thus make for a much more stable unit of trade than fiat currencies, but they do fluctuate.

 

[twostrokenut]

well specie coin values are not always set in stone, the metals in question are still subject to Utility, Desirability and Scarcity to establish their value against goods and services.

after several huge silver strikes in the western US silver's value fell dramatically, the discovery of the new world's resources drove down the value of gold and silver in the old world too.

even the formerly lucrative spice and silk trade has become a high volume game since if i REALLY REALLY needed some cinnamon i could fly off to india and come back the next day with a duffel bag full.

specie metals like gold, silver, platinum, copper palladium, etc have all maintained their value against the things we MUST have to live, like rice, wheat, beef, and bacon, and thus make for a much more stable unit of trade than fiat currencies, but they do fluctuate.

Idk bro I don't think silk and salt are finite resources, or on the periodic table anywhere. But you're right they slightly fluctuate on supply and demand just as anything else does....but I agree as a whole.

 

[tokeprep]

Right, the taxpayers do.

How so? The taxpayers get to keep the profits, they don't pay interest.

What about people who do not get wages? Those on fixed incomes or living on their savings?

Most people on fixed incomes get cost of living adjustments. Most people "living on their savings" aren't living on their cash savings.

Obviously inflation does negatively impact some people who are at the very bottom. But any monetary system would hurt someone. If we were on the gold/silver standard, a huge fluctuation in gold prices would devastate someone too.

 

[ChesusRice]

Neutron gets 900 a month in income
Lives in Mexico
and complains about taxes in the USA

 

[tokeprep]

I am using facts to show how I form my opinion, your point is based on your opinion alone..... Ya bro I can do that too watch this: IF silver were still in the coins YOUR Federal Reserve Note wouldn't exist right now so there would be no way to compare "worth"....the "worth" you refer to is simply a ratio of FRN's to silver dollars 1:23..................

The worth of the coin never changes....if it takes more notes to buy the coin then the notes are losing value.

In 1935, the United States produced silver coins. Everyone had silver coins. There was no market to sell the coins for their silver content unless the price of silver rose above $1.29 an ounce (and it didn't). Obviously the value of the coins did change.

In 1935, your $1 silver coin bought the equivalent of $16.97 in goods today. In 1950, the same $1 silver coin would have only bought the equivalent of $9.65 in goods. In 1960, it was down to $7.86. This is indisputable fact that you have made no effort to contradict aside from referring to the current market price of silver. In fact, the actual value of the silver coins declined every single year. It didn't "take more notes" in 1935 to buy the coin than it did in 1950. The coin was a coin with its actual value in the economy not based on the market price of silver (which would have to cross $1.29 to be higher than face value). $1 in silver coins bought less in 1935 than it did in 1950, and less in 1960 than it did in either previous period.

My entire point was that if we still had silver in our coins, the government would be managing the price just as it did for centuries. Accordingly, if you were being paid with modern silver coins today, they wouldn't be worth the 2013 market price you keep quoting, since the government's management efforts would preclude that price from ever existing. It wouldn't be practical to make coins with silver if the price was prone to wild fluctuations that could dramatically alter the intrinsic value of the coin.

 

[twostrokenut]

The future price will depend on the spot price of silver. If you bought your silver eagles a couple years ago, you're currently down huge.

​

​
lol that's the point IF I still had my paycheck from 1955 in coinage....I would be way up...IF I put my paychecks from 1955 in a savings account or in a pillow as notes or even government backed silver certificates.....I would be way down....paper gambling aside of course please don't begin to try to explain to me what a mutual fund is or similar.

​