What are your thoughts on a basic income?

[UncleBuck]

Have you ever heard me say I wanted to revoke their equal status under the law?

that has nothing to do with you being a racist piece of trash.

that also has nothing to do with the "extent" of your racism either. your racism is not simply limited to having certain beliefs, many of them ill founded. you also let your racist attitudes lead you into saying some vile and personal things, and often.

don't try to change the goalposts here, thumbellina.

 

[Dr Kynes]

You didn't cite your info, either.

i already cited this data.

he just refuses to accept information which violates his preconceptions, or derails his democrat sponsored talking points.

 

[Dr Kynes]

Neither did you. All you did was to try to redefine words. I said labor creates all wealth and you went off on labour in reference to the class also known as the proletariat and concluded with mention of Marxism.

You really don't need my help to go in circles breh.

and yet labour does NOT create all wealth.

a shopkeeper doesnt really produce anything, he merely uses capital to accumulate and redistribute goods for profit.

labour implies PRODUCTIVE work which turns goods into MORE GOODS, while mercantile services turn existing goods into MORE MONEY for themselves.

they do not actually produce shit, they simply handle shit others made and scrape off some of the value into their own pockets.

i think this is a good thing, but it still does not make MORE of any resource save the nebulous and entirely conceptual product, "Money".

shopkeepers still rely on the productive work of others to produce the things they handle and re-sell.

in a world without labour's surpluses, there would be no shops, and no commerce, and thus no "Wealth", but "Wealth" only cometh from COMMERCE, and while commerce relies upon labour to produce and move goods, the market is the place where goods turn into "Wealth" and much of that activity occurs with no additional real labour input and no increase in productivity.

this is not a matter of "Class" it is a matter of reality.

 

[abandonconflict]

and yet labour does NOT create all wealth.

a shopkeeper doesnt really produce anything, he merely uses capital to accumulate and redistribute goods for profit.

labour implies PRODUCTIVE work which turns goods into MORE GOODS, while mercantile services turn existing goods into MORE MONEY for themselves.

they do not actually produce shit, they simply handle shit others made and scrape off some of the value into their own pockets.

i think this is a good thing, but it still does not make MORE of any resource save the nebulous and entirely conceptual product, "Money".

shopkeepers still rely on the productive work of others to produce the things they handle and re-sell.

in a world without labour's surpluses, there would be no shops, and no commerce, and thus no "Wealth", but "Wealth" only cometh from COMMERCE, and while commerce relies upon labour to produce and move goods, the market is the place where goods turn into "Wealth" and much of that activity occurs with no additional real labour input and no increase in productivity.

this is not a matter of "Class" it is a matter of reality.

Commerce trades wealth. Labor creates wealth. Usury is not a service.

 

[Padawanbater2]

if they lower their profit margins, then their PE Ratio goes in the shitter, stock prices fall, and the CEO and the board go out on their asses.

you have already asserted that you want legislation to prevent "passing the higher wages on to consumers" and now they CAN raise prices however they like?

these two statements are contradictory.

if they CAN raise prices, then they CAN pass on the new higher wages to "consumers" (again with the pejorative) but your proposed legislation prevents them from passing on those higher wage costs to "consumers" so therefore they CANNOT raise prices.

if beef prices double, can they pass those costs on? no, of course not. they should lower their profit margin.

if their taxes double, can they pass those costs on? nope. lower profits.

if insurance rates double? lower profits

mandated health insurance? lower profits.

when there is no more profit to lower, no more McBurgers. now all those burger flippers are unemployed and on the dole.

thats how economics REALLY works.

if McBurgers cant turn your dollars into MORE DOLLARS, then you will invest someplace else, McBurgers stock tumbles, and eventually they go into receivership.

They can raise prices however they like in accordance with that law

IMO, there shouldn't be full time jobs that don't pay a reasonable working wage, so if said company were to go under, that would be fine. The competition still exists, working wages is simply another thing for employers to compete for, instead of employees competing for lower wages. It would provide incentive for employers to offer higher wages or better benefits if they still wanted to remain open, and like I said before, for huge corporations like Walmart and McDonalds, they could double every single employees salary and still come out way ahead in terms of profits, so I don't see how that argument follows, especially since I already added the caveat of only adding this legislation to businesses making well above the billion dollar profit margin.

 

[Padawanbater2]

The argument "we'll go out of business if we pay our employees any more" is bullshit, especially when it's directed at Walmart or McDonalds

They won't

 

[Dr Kynes]

Australia seemed damn near immune to the global recession. Australia can has aggregate demand.

australia is insulated from economic meltddowns by their FLAT BUSINESS TAX , which means no surprises, no teams of lawyers and accountants trying to circumvent the tax, and the little guy pays the same rate as the giants, yet the rate is reasonable if still a little high by my reckoning.

with a progressive tax scheme (which in the US climbs all the way up to 53%) you have to manage your business's growth, and burn productivity to defray marginal tax rates.

australia also has a tight labour market, very little (comparatively) illegal immigration, and yes, a national socialized medical system which eliminates the leeches of the insurance industry to a large degree, and greatly increases the confidence of workers that they wont be undone and reduced to penury by an illness.

all the money which goes to insurance companies in america is a net drain on productivity, and a net increase in NON-Productive bureaucracy and management.

you forgot that i support a socialized medical system as long as it is paid for with actual taxes, and is run for the benefit of the SOCIETY (and doctors who DO deserve mercedes benzes and rolexes) rather than the mandarins in government and the money fingering wall street interests, didnt you?

every time you increase the need for accountants, bureaucrats, mandarins, and managers you rob capital from the productive sectors to feed the unproductive money handlers.

 

[heckler73]

Hmmm... a "manager" makes $108k?
I guess that's part of the franchisee's income, unless they are just sitting on their asses and only collecting the $150k on the bottom line.
I wonder if Kynes saw that in the footnotes of one of his earlier "citations"?
Meh... knowing him, probably not.

 

[abandonconflict]

australia is insulated from economic meltddowns by their FLAT BUSINESS TAX , which means no surprises, no teams of lawyers and accountants trying to circumvent the tax, and the little guy pays the same rate as the giants, yet the rate is reasonable if still a little high by my reckoning.

with a progressive tax scheme (which in the US climbs all the way up to 53%) you have to manage your business's growth, and burn productivity to defray marginal tax rates.

australia also has a tight labour market, very little (comparatively) illegal immigration, and yes, a national socialized medical system which eliminates the leeches of the insurance industry to a large degree, and greatly increases the confidence of workers that they wont be undone and reduced to penury by an illness.

all the money which goes to insurance companies in america is a net drain on productivity, and a net increase in NON-Productive bureaucracy and management.

you forgot that i support a socialized medical system as long as it is paid for with actual taxes, and is run for the benefit of the SOCIETY (and doctors who DO deserve mercedes benzes and rolexes) rather than the mandarins in government and the money fingering wall street interests, didnt you?

every time you increase the need for accountants, bureaucrats, mandarins, and managers you rob capital from the productive sectors to feed the unproductive money handlers.

Australia didn't feel the impact of the recession because the recession was characterized by a lack of aggregate demand which Australia avoided.

 

[Dr Kynes]

And here's Peter Schiff in action making a fool of himself in front of WalFart.
15 for 15

[video=youtube;YAhMslTsLjs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAhMslTsLjs[/video]

Gawd these Austrian loons are unremitting failures.

one dolt who thinks an extra $7/hour is 15% of walmart's gross on their products does NOT prove anything.

even the McBurger (with the abnormally high labour costs associated with foodservice) only spend 34% of their gross receipts on labour. walmart and other retailers do way better than that.

this is reductio ad retardum by proxy.

 

[heckler73]

BAM!!!!

D.C. Minimum wage to go up to $11.50/hr

and yes... there's more

[video=youtube;mIA40wByqH8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIA40wByqH8[/video]

 

[Dr Kynes]

Australia didn't feel the impact of the recession because the recession was characterized by a lack of aggregate demand which Australia avoided.

because australians just love to "consume"...

aggregate demand is a fig leaf to disguise real market forces and reinforce the idea that thrift and saving is THEFT from the economy.

this is why the fed is shitting itself over the 1% inflation and calling it DEFLATION, even though they are flooding the market with Obamabucks.

for a guy who professes to love the workers, and oppose the capitalist pigdog elite you sure do enjoy their rationales...

the fed has spent nearly 100 years trying to stop amercians from saving to buy what they want, using constant inflation to erode savings, and easy credit and marketing gimmickry to encourage instant gratification, because they (the banking cartel and the governemnt) only make money when money is in motion.

savings puts money to rest, and they HATE that.

"Consumerism" is a product of fiat currency, central banking and unrestrained capitalism, to the detriment of society, and is nearly as destructive of markets as rampant collectivism.

 

[nevyn]

South Africa implemented a minimum wage thingy, mines are now shutting down because they can't operate anymore, and we having strike after strike because of it, our farmers are also being squeezed on minimum wage and all that achieved was the loss of jobs. It a catch 22 for me though, I see the downside of it, but also tired of seeing poor people running around while the rich just get richer. But for me the minimum wage policy is not going to fix the problem. Also the minimum wage seems to create a gimmi gimmi situation and that is causing nothing but problems.

 

[abandonconflict]

because australians just love to "consume"...

aggregate demand is a fig leaf to disguise real market forces and reinforce the idea that thrift and saving is THEFT from the economy.

Maybe the dumbest thing you have yet posited.

 

[Dr Kynes]

BAM!!!!

D.C. Minimum wage to go up to $11.50/hr

and yes... there's more

[video=youtube;mIA40wByqH8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIA40wByqH8[/video]

clearly they are economic geniuses who will turn that small increase in the minimum wage into a massive groundswell of "aggregate demand" for more cheap imported goods and shitty "consumer" products.

yeah they know whats up in the market.

hell why not raise their tax rates so they take home the same amount every week, and divert those monies into keyensian economic stimulus by buying "art" like this:

(Teh Fux??)

(a robot turd? i dont even know)

(they LOOK like solar panels, but they dont even produce electricity...)

yeah... aggregate demand and keynesian economics is a real powerhouse.

 

[abandonconflict]

When people stop buying shit, sellers lay people off which then leads to a compounding downward spiral.

 

[nevyn]

When people stop buying shit, sellers lay people off which then leads to a compounding downward spiral.

But doesn't that create a false economy then?

 

[abandonconflict]

clearly they are economic geniuses who will turn that small increase in the minimum wage into a massive groundswell of "aggregate demand" for more cheap imported goods and shitty "consumer" products.

yeah they know whats up in the market.

hell why not raise their tax rates so they take home the same amount every week, and divert those monies into keyensian economic stimulus by buying "art" like this:

(Teh Fux??)

(a robot turd? i dont even know)

(they LOOK like solar panels, but they dont even produce electricity...)

yeah... aggregate demand and keynesian economics is a real powerhouse.

You just erected a strawman to attack.

 

[Dr Kynes]

Maybe the dumbest thing you have yet posited.

yeah, theres those sweet ad hominems i was waiting for.

a snide dismissal which does not refute the statement, or deal with the simple and demonstrable fact that the people who run our economy do NOT want savings or thrift from us, they want consumption and a life lived on an economic hamster wheel.

our economy is run for the benefit of a few powerful people, and easily duped fools will follow the dipshit in front of them, allowing themselves to be led right to the gates of the slaughterhouse.

 

[abandonconflict]

But doesn't that create a false economy then?

It doesn't create anything. Suppliers don't supply when there is no demand.