Paul Ryan (R-WI) guts billions from veteran's benefits

Wilksey

Well-Known Member
First off,
Thanks for your service.

Congress does suck goat ass. I saw them doing it behind the barn.

We are only talking about standards of recruitment, nothing else.

Having women and gays in the military is not a detriment, most are not doing front line duty or IED patrols. For most people in the military, they will be far removed from actually having to engage in physical combat. War is different now, less and less physical combat needed to win. More and more technical in nature.
Sure, sexual harassment, rape, pregnancies, relationship drama, and wasting money on logistical "female only" shit isn't detrimental to the service AT all.

ALL of that shit would be eliminated instantaneously if there weren't females to worry about in service.

But I'm just pulling this shit out of my ass right?

I used to laugh at the misery some of my comrades were put through dealing with chick issues in their units. Hell, even the CHICKS didn't want to work with other chicks, and if that don't tell you something's fucked up, I don't know what will.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
Cite it. Show me statistical data which concludes that the combat arms vocations have lower asvab scores than other vocations. This will premise soundly your argument that combat arms troops are just dumb expendable grunts.

Also, since that was not the opinion to which I was referring when I posted that comment, cite the "indisputable fact" that intelligence correlates with pay.
That's not what I meant. I thought you were saying there was no correlation between pay grade and intelligence. Enlisted men make crap money; they're significantly dumber, on average, than officers who make much better money. See: http://isteve.blogspot.com/2006/11/average-iq-of-enlisted-men.html.

I can't find more detailed data, but I don't see you providing any to back up your claim either.
 

echelon1k1

New Member
Cite it. Show me statistical data which concludes that the combat arms vocations have lower asvab scores than other vocations. This will premise soundly your argument that combat arms troops are just dumb expendable grunts.

Also, since that was not the opinion to which I was referring when I posted that comment, cite the "indisputable fact" that intelligence correlates with pay.
If we consider that intelligence manifests itself in everyday life as the ability to deal with complexity, then it is easy to see why it has great functional or practical importance. Children, for example, are regularly exposed to complex tasks once they begin school. Schooling requires above all that students learn, solve problems and think abstractly. That IQ is quite a good predictor of differences in educational achievement is therefore not surprising. When scores on both IQ and standardized achievement tests in different subjects are averaged over several years, the two averages correlate as highly as different IQ tests from the same individual do. High-ability students also master material at many times the rate of their low-ability peers. Many investigations have helped quantify this discrepancy. For example, a 1969 study done for the U.S. Army by the Human Resources Research Office found that enlistees in the bottom fifth of the ability distribution required two to six times as many teaching trials and prompts as did their higher-ability peers to attain minimal proficiency in rifle assembly, monitoring signals, combat plotting and other basic military tasks. Similarly, in school settings the ratio of learning rates between "fast" and "slow" students is typically five to one.

The scholarly content of many IQ tests and their strong correlations with educational success can give the impression that g is only a narrow academic ability. But general mental ability also predicts job performance, and in more complex jobs it does so better than any other single personal trait, including education and experience. The army's Project A, a seven-year study conducted in the 1980s to improve the recruitment and training process, found that general mental ability correlated strongly with both technical proficiency and soldiering in the nine specialties studied, among them infantry, military police and medical specialist. Research in the civilian sector has revealed the same pattern. Furthermore, although the addition of personality traits such as conscientiousness can help hone the prediction of job performance, the inclusion of specific mental aptitudes such as verbal fluency or mathematical skill rarely does. The predictive value of mental tests in the work arena stems almost entirely from their measurement of g, and that value rises with the complexity and prestige level of the job.

Half a century of military and civilian research has converged to draw a portrait of occupational opportunity along the IQ continuum. Individuals in the top 5 percent of the adult IQ distribution (above IQ 125) can essentially train themselves, and few occupations are beyond their reach mentally. Persons of average IQ (between 90 and 110) are not competitive for most professional and executive-level work but are easily trained for the bulk of jobs in the American economy. In contrast, adults in the bottom 5 percent of the IQ distribution (below 75) are very difficult to train and are not competitive for any occupation on the basis of ability. Serious problems in training low-IQ military recruits during World War II led Congress to ban enlistment from the lowest 10 percent (below 80) of the population, and no civilian occupation in modern economies routinely recruits its workers from that range. Current military enlistment standards exclude any individual whose IQ is below about 85.

The importance of g in job performance, as in schooling, is related to complexity. Occupations differ considerably in the complexity of their demands, and as that complexity rises, higher g levels become a bigger asset and lower g levels a bigger handicap. Similarly, everyday tasks and environments also differ significantly in their cognitive complexity. The degree to which a person's g level will come to bear on daily life depends on how much novelty and ambiguity that person's everyday tasks and surroundings present and how much continual learning, judgment and decision making they require. As gamblers, employers and bankers know, even marginal differences in rates of return will yield big gains--or losses--over time. Hence, even small differences in g among people can exert large, cumulative influences across social and economic life.
Everything i'm reading is discrediting Tokepreps assertions. http://www.psych.utoronto.ca/users/reingold/courses/intelligence/cache/1198gottfred.html
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
Most homeless people are mentally ill. I suspect a significant portion of combat veterans are also mentally ill, having known some.

I've never seen combat but I understand how it could destroy someone as a person, having heard the stories of people who lived it. In the modern era we send our dumbest, least able people into horrors unimaginable to the comfortable American populace.
...do you know any? Your doubt sounds awfully scholastic. I take it you've never been deployed.



Your first statement just isn't true. The frontline troops are the expendable grunts. Special ops account for a small fraction of combat, and yet you've elevated them to being "the real battles." Let's be frank about this: the real battles are fought by people who barely graduated high school.

I appreciate their sacrifices and their sense of dedication to this country. That inclination rises above that in most of the educated or successful people I have ever known. That doesn't mean they're brilliant, and it certainly doesn't mean they're prepared for the horrors of modern war.
Special ops are the frontline troops. High school doesn't produce soldiers and neither does college. The troops who dismount and do the dirty work are extremely well trained. Even the low ranking marines and army infantry.

There is really no part of your post that is based on fact. You're simply speculating on what you think makes sense. The fact is that it takes a lot of intelligence and mental toughness to make it through combat. This is why the military sends the fittest into danger.
Ok. I thought you lived in Mexico? You know I know lots of people who have served in the American military right? What the fuck are you talking about?
When I was graduating from high school they were desperate for troops. You can talk about the "highest" scores all you want--reality is reality.
82nd airborne Afghanistan 2002, Iraq 2003-2004. Infantry.
Is this about saying you aren't an idiot or is it supposed to be reflective of the entire American military?
For every infantryman there are 8 support troops from other vocations.
I'm talking about people who carried the guns and were shot at. The smart ones who I knew were never in combat.
I'm not in the military. If you're dying, you're on the front line. That's my definition--I feel that it reflects the thousands of troops who have died in the last 10 years--but you can use your own if you please.
The smart ones lived through the wars and are now earning six figure salaries. You're right, we may have a different definition of "smart."
So only the dumb died?

Your insults and disdain are directed at some of the best friends I ever knew.
That's not what I meant. I thought you were saying there was no correlation between pay grade and intelligence. Enlisted men make crap money; they're significantly dumber, on average, than officers who make much better money. See: http://isteve.blogspot.com/2006/11/average-iq-of-enlisted-men.html.

I can't find more detailed data, but I don't see you providing any to back up your claim either.
You clearly made a bunch of dumb claims based on what you think makes sense. You then proceeded to describe them as undisputable and truth and with such phrases as "and that is that". The onus is upon you to provide data quantifying these assertions which you verily have described as beyond reproach. My claims have simply been counter to yours, except one. I claimed that infantry battalions have higher average GT scores than other battalions. I can not provide any back up because I can't find it online. This claim is simply an echo of a claim made by Stan McChrystal. He said this to my battalion in formation when he was the assistant division commanding officer of the 82nd. He said that was why he wanted to be an infantry officer and that he considered himself very fortunate to have commanded my battalion before being promoted to adco of the 82nd.

He may have been blowing smoke.
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
I actually agree that too much is spent on war and that disability and benefits for veterans are also war costs. However I have nothing but disdain for people who think that they don't deserve it. They only follow the path laid out by society and try to serve the nation as they believe is the good thing to do. I don't just say"support our troops" as a nationalistic slogan. When idiots like tokeprep say that they are dumb and expendable grunts, I take offense because that's exactly how the ruling class sees the rest of us.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
You clearly made a bunch of dumb claims based on what you think makes sense. You then proceeded to describe them as undisputable and truth and with such phrases as "and that is that". The onus is upon you to provide data quantifying these assertions which you verily have described as beyond reproach. My claims have simply been counter to yours, except one. I claimed that infantry battalions have higher average GT scores than other battalions. I can not provide any back up because I can't find it online. This claim is simply an echo of a claim made by Stan McChrystal. He said this to my battalion in formation when he was the assistant division commanding officer of the 82nd. He said that was why he wanted to be an infantry officer and that he considered himself very fortunate to have commanded my battalion before being promoted to adco of the 82nd.

He may have been blowing smoke.
My original comment wasn't intended as disparagement, which seems to be how you took it. What I meant by "dumb" is vastly different than how you understood it. People in the military, generally, are not very bright. If that offends you, that's unfortunate. But it's still true. Do you want to measure by IQ? If so, I already posted the link.
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
My original comment wasn't intended as disparagement, which seems to be how you took it. What I meant by "dumb" is vastly different than how you understood it. People in the military, generally, are not very bright. If that offends you, that's unfortunate. But it's still true. Do you want to measure by IQ? If so, I already posted the link.
I'm smarter than you, as evidenced by my prevailing logic and well written arguments. I'm a veteran. Your link doesn't back your claim that only stupid people see combat. My obvious intellectual advantage over yourself however is anecdotal evidence which controverts your specious claim.

You did in fact clearly claim that combat arms troops are dumber than others.
 

Pinworm

Well-Known Member
People in the military, generally, are not very bright. If that offends you, that's unfortunate.
First off. Your troll bait is weak. Secondly, I would love to watch you debate a West Point graduate. Even the dumbest student there would eviscerate you with their knowledge. But, that wasn't intended as disparagement. Just stating facts.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
I actually agree that too much is spent on war and that disability and benefits for veterans are also war costs. However I have nothing but disdain for people who think that they don't deserve it. They only follow the path laid out by society and try to serve the nation as they believe is the good thing to do. I don't just say"support our troops" as a nationalistic slogan. When idiots like tokeprep say that they are dumb and expendable grunts, I take offense because that's exactly how the ruling class sees the rest of us.
The army has the lowest ASVAB score requirement and they waive people in at levels substantially below the stated requirement. The vast majority of the casualties in the last 10 years are from the army.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
I'm smarter than you, as evidenced by my prevailing logic and well written arguments. I'm a veteran. Your link doesn't back your claim that only stupid people see combat. My obvious intellectual advantage over yourself however is anecdotal evidence which controverts your specious claim.

You did in fact clearly claim that combat arms troops are dumber than others.
You're not smarter than me. Your typical bumper sticker post is devoid of logic and argument.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
First off. Your troll bait is weak. Secondly, I would love to watch you debate a West Point graduate. Even the dumbest student there would eviscerate you with their knowledge. But, that wasn't intended as disparagement. Just stating facts.
I'd beat the crap out of them in a debate. My academic credentials are far superior.
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
My original comment wasn't intended as disparagement, which seems to be how you took it. What I meant by "dumb" is vastly different than how you understood it. People in the military, generally, are not very bright. If that offends you, that's unfortunate.
Deciphering...

"no offense, but I think people like you are dumb. If that insults you it isn't because I meant it as an insult. It insults you because you're dumb."
 
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