2 Pounds Per Light

Uncle Ben said:

There you go again.....is that vertical no hood, small horizontal hood, large parabolic, height from plants or what? What are the plants actually receiving? A measure of grams/watt may be a popular cannabis forum buzzword, but like most cannabis paradigms and buzzwords it's meaningless. Pounds per light is really hilarious!

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Ben, most of our discussions devolve into ridiculousness, but I'd like this time to be different.

Can you explain how you don't feel that it's a reasonable measure of efficiency to judge output (yield) by the most expensive input factor (electricity) - that is how most business analysts (as I am) would do it, no? Net profit = gross profit - operating expenses.

If someone is getting 2+ pounds per 1000 watts of light used, is that not similar to your claim above of how your "expenditure to profits ratio" was very low? To me, it appears to be virtually identical - you're claiming an efficient setup let you not put much time or money into your grow, and the 2lbs.+ person is saying "with the electricity usage that you use to get 1lb., I use to get 2lbs." - that is clearly a comparative advantage, no?

I honestly can not conceive of how someone could call efficiency "meaningless".

Please (if you choose to, it's your call), just answer the question I posed and don't try to hit me with all kinds of different variables/points that have nothing to do with the question above.

If you're not interested in discussing this, not a biggie either, and have a nice day.

pahudson said:

Cool tubes, bulbs roughly 6 months old, horizontal hoods.

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Based on the large number of brands of lamps and hoods, each with their own characteristics, strengths and weaknesses, that doesn't tell me anything. What is the f.c. received at leaf levels and for how long during veg?

UB

Bob Smith said:

Ben, most of our discussions devolve into ridiculousness, but I'd like this time to be different.

Can you explain how you don't feel that it's a reasonable measure of efficiency to judge output (yield) by the most expensive input factor (electricity) - that is how most business analysts (as I am) would do it, no? Net profit = gross profit - operating expenses.

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Like my pappy say, "if you don't git it, I aint gonna tell ya."

Bob Smith said:

Well that clears it up for us.

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Doesn't clear up squat. Ambient what? 40F or 90F? I guarantee ya that my ambient temps in Texas are alot different than in B.C., any time of the year!

This is exactly what I'm alluding too. It's all crap talk without any real world details or relevance.

OK, I'll give another example to make my point since some seem to be a litttttttttttttttle thick around here. When a seedbank hawks their new miracle mutt as being done in 62 days, is there ANY credibilty there? Of course, not as all factors, not just light come into play regarding finishing times, vigor. Take temps for example. All things equal, if I give one plant a 65/40F temp and another a 85/70F temp for the majority of its life, which one will finish faster and be more vigorous and healthier?

UB

Uncle Ben said:

Based on the large number of brands of lamps and hoods, each with their own characteristics, strengths and weaknesses, that doesn't tell me anything. What is the f.c. received at leaf levels and for how long during veg?

UB

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Lets be clear that I am not arguing with you in any way. I have read many of your posts and know that you have lots of experience and you are very knowledgeable. I also know that there are different ways of doing things and no one is right all the time. I am here strictly to learn and better myself. I honestly don't know how I would measure f.c. (foot candles?). Would I go and get a meter for this? I can't remember off hand what he brand of the bulb is or the cool tubes. It sounds to me that you are recommending I get some kind of light meter, and measure how many f.c my plants are receiving and make sure that I am slightly under saturation point. Correct? Where could I get such a meter? The hydro store?

Uncle Ben said:

Doesn't clear up squat. Ambient what? 40F or 90F? I guarantee ya that my ambient temps in Texas are alot different than in B.C., any time of the year!

This is exactly what I'm alluding too. It's all crap talk without any real world details or relevance.

OK, I'll give another example to make my point since some seem to be a litttttttttttttttle thick around here. When a seedbank hawks their new miracle mutt as being done in 62 days, is there ANY credibilty there? Of course, not as all factors, not just light come into play regarding finishing times, vigor. Take temps for example. All things equal, if I give one plant a 65/40F temp and another a 85/70F temp for the majority of its life, which one will finish faster and be more vigorous and healthier?

UB

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I think he was being sarcastic when he said "well that clears it up for us".

pahudson said:

I think he was being sarcastic when he said "well that clears it up for us".

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LOL.........you think?

Bob Smith said:

LOL.........you think?

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By the way thanks for linking me to that site, its great. I like that bucket system, it looks amazing (not for me but cool to see).

pahudson said:

Lets be clear that I am not arguing with you in any way. I have read many of your posts and know that you have lots of experience and you are very knowledgeable. I also know that there are different ways of doing things and no one is right all the time. I am here strictly to learn and better myself. I honestly don't know how I would measure f.c. (foot candles?). Would I go and get a meter for this? I can't remember off hand what he brand of the bulb is or the cool tubes. It sounds to me that you are recommending I get some kind of light meter, and measure how many f.c my plants are receiving and make sure that I am slightly under saturation point. Correct? Where could I get such a meter? The hydro store?

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Here's mine - it goes up to 200,000 lux (and the equivalent number of footcandles, right around 20,000), which is more than 50% brighter than the sun.

Got it on Ebay delivered for $50, but that was simply for me to design a proper radius around my bare bulbed 600s - honestly, I'd say it's not all that important for your needs (not a slight at all, but I don't think you'd recoup your $50 very quickly from the info you got from it).



EDIT: most hydro stores carry a little analog Hydrofarm light meter for around $20 that would better suit your needs if you decide you really want a light meter - I think that one only goes up to 5000FC, but I could be mistaken.

Uncle Ben said:

Doesn't clear up squat. Ambient what? 40F or 90F? I guarantee ya that my ambient temps in Texas are alot different than in B.C., any time of the year!

This is exactly what I'm alluding too. It's all crap talk without any real world details or relevance.

OK, I'll give another example to make my point since some seem to be a litttttttttttttttle thick around here. When a seedbank hawks their new miracle mutt as being done in 62 days, is there ANY credibilty there? Of course, not as all factors, not just light come into play regarding finishing times, vigor. Take temps for example. All things equal, if I give one plant a 65/40F temp and another a 85/70F temp for the majority of its life, which one will finish faster and be more vigorous and healthier?

UB

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Ben, see post #55 in this thread.

Would still love an answer to my question in post #141, as it seems like you've touched on all parts of that post save for answering the one question I asked you.

I'll repeat and bold it here again for you:

"If someone is getting 2+ pounds per 1000 watts of light used, is that not similar to your claim above of how your "expenditure to profits ratio" was very low? To me, it appears to be virtually identical - you're claiming an efficient setup let you not put much time or money into your grow, and the 2lbs.+ person is saying "with the electricity usage that you use to get 1lb., I use to get 2lbs." - that is clearly a comparative advantage, no?"

pahudson said:

By the way thanks for linking me to that site, its great. I like that bucket system, it looks amazing (not for me but cool to see).

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Yeah, it's a site designed for growers and is where I spend most of my time (saw this thread just doing some research and now I appear to be entangled in it somehow).

If you need buckets, I have about 50 in my garage from when I designed a RDWC last year but never put it into use because I decided to go vertical.

Bob Smith said:

Here's mine - it goes up to 200,000 lux (and the equivalent number of footcandles, right around 20,000), which is more than 50% brighter than the sun.

Got it on Ebay delivered for $50, but that was simply for me to design a proper radius around my bare bulbed 600s - honestly, I'd say it's not all that important for your needs (not a slight at all, but I don't think you'd recoup your $50 very quickly from the info you got from it).

View attachment 1250187View attachment 1250188

EDIT: most hydro stores carry a little analog Hydrofarm light meter for around $20 that would better suit your needs if you decide you really want a light meter - I think that one only goes up to 5000FC, but I could be mistaken.

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Cool thanks for the tip. I have never heard of anyone talk about needing them before, but as I said before I am trying to learn. As a balance between light coverage and intensity I keep my lights roughly 18 inches from the top of the canopy.

Bob Smith said:

Yeah, it's a site designed for growers and is where I spend most of my time (saw this thread just doing some research and now I appear to be entangled in it somehow).

If you need buckets, I have about 50 in my garage from when I designed a RDWC last year but never put it into use because I decided to go vertical.

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Thanks anyway but its not really for me. Besides, I seem to be having a tough enough time mastering soil growing.

Bob Smith, I'm very interested in how your vertical grow works out. I just started my 1st grow and it is vertical.

pahudson said:

Cool thanks for the tip. I have never heard of anyone talk about needing them before, but as I said before I am trying to learn. As a balance between light coverage and intensity I keep my lights roughly 18 inches from the top of the canopy.

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I noticed you didn't speak about your reflectors - FWIW, I've come to the conclusion (after using lotsa reflectors) that if you're aircooling your lights and not using MagnumXXXLs, you're not really helping yourself - I use the 6", but the Ochos are the tits - they're almost as large as the 4x4 area that a 1K should be illuminating, meaning you can get them MUCH closer without sacrificing coverage.

If you're not aircooling your lights, I'd go with adjust-a-wings with the diffuser, they're the tits as well.

Regarding the light meter, a tape measure along with that chart showing lumens from different lights at different distances is a cheap but effective method for estimating - not sure the light meter would tell you a lot more than "the center plants get more light and the outside plants get less", which is not groundbreaking news, IMO.

I only had to use mine for about an hour to get some measurements and then do some geometry, and probably won't use it ever again (you could use it to test your bulb's effectiveness over time, but I replace my bulbs every grow so I wouldn't need to do that).

EDIT: just saw that you're running cooltubes - throw those pieces of shit into your dumpster immediately (not really, but you get what I'm saying) - if you're gonna stay horizontal, I'd HIGHLY recommend upgrading your reflector(s).

Also, as a quick fix to your fresh air problem, why not just stop aircooling your lights? That will increase the heat in your room by a good amount, and make it so you need to refresh with cool air more often? Not the "best" fix I've ever heard of, but it would allow you to intake/exhaust much more frequently while still maintaining your temps above a certain level.

Really though, a simple CO2 tank and $150 regulator along with some simple math will allow you to keep your CO2 levels above 500 easily and not have to worry about all the intake/exhaust in the freezing winter.

You'll master it when you simplify it...

You have to consider a lot of factors. If you want to grow 1 gpw then you can pack 60 plants under 1 light. Does that make your grow efficient? Not really. With 12 lights, you would need 720 plants. If you get busted, 720 plants is really hard to explain...As legal as you think you are. You gotta first think about what is efficient for you. Do you want to grow for quality, grow for weight, do you prefer more lights or more plants in your set up? Do you want to measure the efficiency of your grow by gpw, ounces per plant, lbs per light? You see how you can get lost in all this and just end up confused and frustrated.

I use Great White hoods and I put anywhere from 10-12 plants under each hood. Now I average about 2.5-2.9 ounces per plant, about 2 lbs per light, about .8-1gpw. Sometimes it's more and sometimes it's a little less. My main goal is quality. I try to grow the best bud I can. I grow in soil because I can't constantly be on top of it because I also have a life. I don't want to worry about pumps failing and power outages and soil gives me that freedom and peace of mind. From the time I take my clones, my main focus is my roots. The bigger and better things are under ground, the bigger and better things will be above ground.

The way you complicate things is by trying to take everyone's advice which most of the time is going to conflict with what someone else may say. Then you're gonna start questioning things and start fucking around with things that you shouldn't. If I was you, I would go back to the basics and not try to get ahead of yourself. Start off simple, and start to balance all the different parts of your grow. When you get the basics down, and get your room dialed in to a point where you know exactly what to expect, start introducing new ideas and trying different things. Something else I would do is get a journal going and see what input people give you. Take this thread for instance, you got so many different responses that you're probably more confused then when you made your first post. As much as you don't want to hear this, but there are too many variables to consider, one of which is your growing knowledge.

Also, I don't think you should start CO2 for now. You have too many things to deal with and CO2 isn't going to be as effective until everything else is dialed in. Deal with your environment first, then get used to 1 or 2 strains and learn how it grows and it's tendencies. Each strain grows different and you're going to have a hard time balancing multiple strains at the same time.

Does nobody understand that time is one of the big things to look at with this factor?

Thought I was loud and clear in my post about grams per watt being bull unless you factor time!!!

Another example so we can get this down!

Ok one grower flowers from clone and in 8 weeks gets 2lbs that to me is .5gpw per month which is how you should measure it!
Another guy veged his plant for 2 months and flowered for 2 witch gives him 16 weeks not 8 of total grow time so his yield was 2lbs who yielded more grams per watt?????

I would say the first example is double .5gpw as the second example pulled .25gpw

The reason time is such a big factor as in my first example you would put out 2x 2lbs crops in the same time frame as the second example got 1x2lbs for a crop!

Now you may understand how much of a difference time has on yield!!!

This is how so many are led astray I can grow whatever I want for grams per watt given enough veg time and space but by no means is it efficient!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OZUT, you bring up some decent points regarding one's personal utility in growing; I a believer that we should all try to stay under 100 plants as often as possible no matter our legality (my last run of 142 in a 4x4 tray was simply a test to see how dense I could grow a SOG, nothing that I would do on an ongoing basis).

However, I respectfully disagree with your assertion that the OP needs to "simplify" to get what he's after - based on his posts and his setup, he seems to have an "okay" understanding of growing and is not a pure noob, IMO - he's looking for improvements to get him past a certain hurdle, not to simplify even more and understand how a plant ticks (again, just my take on things).

Couldn't agree more on the quality vs. quantity debate, and I touched on this in another thread - 3 600s would be "plenty" of light for most people, but I try to grow the dankest bud I can, which is more light - there's always going to be a tradeoff between quality and efficiency - technically 3 600s would be more efficient, but I'm not sure they'd give me the quality I desired, so I went with 4.

Regarding soil vs. hydro, it's my firm belief that a well setup hydro system is exponentially less work - I can leave my plants for 10 days at a time and return home to find them doing their thing - you can't do that in soil unless you've got MASSIVELY oversized pots, which are inefficient in their own right.

Agreed that trying to take everyone's advice is certainly a losing matter, but I don't think having options to contemplate and research is ever really a bad thing - the OP can see what sounds good for him and then do some more research/testing to see how it fits his setup.

Regarding the CO2, wasn't recommending that to keep his room at 1500PPMs constantly (which is certainly complicated and requires a fairly large outlay for the intial equipment and setup), was more of a quick fix for his ventilation issues to make sure the plants always have at least 300PPMs available to them when lights are on.