All Natural Organics. The Dons' Summaries + FAQ Thread. <2017-'18>

[calliandra]

I've often heard that it can displace the uptake Mg and never really heard or read of any other issues that stem from excess amounts.

Are you referring to what happens in coco coir when it hasn't been properly produced? Because the K (along with the Na) takes up all the ionic positions available leaving the Mg (and Ca) to float away with the next watering?
(ohyay and I now understand why too! it's because the K and Na only have one electron in their outer orbital, making them way more likely to share that than the Ca and Mg with their outermost sp-orbital complete!
So in the ionic musical chairs game, K and Na are always going to be quicker, so we don't want much of that around

)

FWIW, potassium is the only ion that shows up in the plant cell at the predicted amounts via diffusion. there are lots of channel proteins that facilitate the entry and exit of K cations. They, as is researchers, are not completely sure of the mechanisms of the cell that permit this, but the plant is quite tolerant of excess potassium from what I understood from my plant physiology class.

This is very reassuring
I've been conundering over this with regard to hi-K amendments, and whether the K then accumulates to the point of toxicity in the soil (nods to @MustangStudFarm ) if we, say, keep feeding our no-tills with comfrey or borage (which both bring along high amounts of potassium, if the patchy data I could collect from the web is anything near correct) over long periods of time.
So there goes that conundrum to the back burner, not quite gone, but less urgent now
Cheers!

 

[Wilderb]

Very interesting discussion. While I have been organic for awhile, I am heading to no till for my personal garden.
Am interested in the bio char issue, as I recall there being discussions about this few years ago.
I have been using it but not even close to the amounts being discussed.
Great topic and nice to see some "adults" having a conversation.
WE

 

[firstnamelast]

I would hate to confuse you or anything but dolomite could also be replaced with other rock dusts. Dolomite has about the same ratio as basalt rock and glacial rock dust but they have more trace minerals also. Dolomite really does not have much in the way of trace minerals. Basalt and glacial rock dust is more expensive and harder to find, but in my case, I was low on trace minerals like copper, boron, and Mn... Kelp would have been another option but it has too much K for what I needed.

Cool thank you for your input

 

[firstnamelast]

Good luck guys

 

[DonTesla]

Hey all!
I'm back and avoided all problems! lol.. wish I filmed it all for ya. I don't even know where to start. Haha.

Thanks for carrying the dope dialogue along though..I enjoyed catching up here, digging the quality convo.

@firstnamelast

What base would not need lime? (other than pre-mixed stuff) Super nub question

all good friend! .. a bit of a fungal / humus rich compost and Coco based mix with some fresh castings and aeration could be lime free. Just cancel peat by replacing it.

We cut lime out after first year of growing with no problem and much success, but yes I did use rock dusts as well as humus and egg shells. There is something to be said about that, especially of a nice cal mag in-tune recipe with a slew of bene rock minerals. But humus plays a big part, the eggshells did too I guess.

Now I'm testing some peat recipes so crab shell might have to re enter the life. Are you looking to avoid peat and limestone for whatever reason?

Here are some posts I've saved from my buddy Roy down in Mi whom I hope to visit this year.. you may enjoy them for a more rounded view on the organics..

As you will see, there are many ways to get from point A to point B

 

[DonTesla]

Haha I was just hoping it rings some bell with you
This is how it was explained to me:
for it to be proper pure-C biochar, it has to be made in a container designed to pull in air from below to achieve the high temps needed to fully combust all the other components of the woody material used and also get rid of intermediate toxins created during the burning process. It has to be ended by quenching to open up those pores and volatilize any toxic residue from the burning too.
Apparently regular charcoal you can buy for grill parties doesn't fulfill these decisive requirements. So the pores are far less pronounced, and are cluttered with ash from the burning, i.e. may contain unknown quantities of toxins, which isn't exactly what we were out for when going to add biochar to our systems, right? lol

However, as I have been taught not to believe anything before either shown the data or being able to verify for myself, that wasn't the end of the discussion for me. Is it really such a big difference? How much toxin content will grill charcoal have on average?
So seeing you're using it, I thought to ask whether you had perchance looked into this in depth. One can never know right!
cheers!

Yes, one gram of good biochar will have a football field of surface area. Ask the cowboys if they can say the same...

I'm happy to send some charcoal in for lab analysis if someone is willing to endorse the costs. lol. I know that in looking at bulk biochar purchases, I like to see ash and salt content really low, among other things. ..normally test 84 elements every test but here's a little sample with a couple other factors factored in that may be of someones liking..

I plan on taking a biomass course that will surely help eradicate some confusion as well.. I look forward to that. I better get on that!

 

[calliandra]

Yes, one gram of good biochar will have a football field of surface area. Ask the cowboys if they can say the same...

I'm happy to send some charcoal in for lab analysis if someone is willing to endorse the costs. lol. I know that in looking at bulk biochar purchases, I like to see ash and salt content really low, among other things. ..normally test 84 elements every test but here's a little sample with a couple other factors factored in that may be of someones liking..

I plan on taking a biomass course that will surely help eradicate some confusion as well.. I look forward to that. I better get on that!

lol I'm not going to be the one, since I can't really interpret chemical data anyway
But thanks for sharing, it was like opening the hood and staring at the engine when car breaks down, and you haven't got a clue of mechanics

Wowo what's that biomass course?
And how was the trip?!
Cheers!

 

[MustangStudFarm]

FWIW, potassium is the only ion that shows up in the plant cell at the predicted amounts via diffusion. there are lots of channel proteins that facilitate the entry and exit of K cations. They, as is researchers, are not completely sure of the mechanisms of the cell that permit this, but the plant is quite tolerant of excess potassium from what I understood from my plant physiology class. If you used that soil, were you experiencing issues from your higher potassium levels? I'd be curious to know what they were! I've often heard that it can displace the uptake Mg and never really heard or read of any other issues that stem from excess amounts.

I got the idea of high potassium from an online consultant from the soil tests that I had, she said that the potassium was so high that she couldn't make a recommendation... However, I have been doing more research and I really think that it was the high Phosphorus that was truly killing me! Mehlich 3 test shows that I had 340ppm of Phosphorus and it should only be 30-40ppm, that is a HUGE #... I don't know if you have hear of KIS Oraginics, but I have been listening to his PodCast because he has very good guests like Clackamas Cootz and Jeff Lowenfels. On one of his PodCasts were he was talking about soil tests, he said that cannabis likes higher amounts of K. I could have been wrong about the K, but I bet that it does start having toxicity problems when you have 10x too much, like I did.

Anyways, I am here today to see how/if anyone has used malted barley before. I just got a 55# bag today, the cheap 2 row barley from a brew store... Clackamas says that crab/crustacean meal has chitin and barley has chitinase that breaks down chitin, Chitin+Chitinase= high SAR. I don't want to clog the thread but Don Tesla was one of the few people talking about ferments and I would consider barley being a ferment even if I use it in the worm bin, tell me if I am wrong. I understand that I would sprout the barley, blend it, and use it in the soil or worm bin. Clackamas also said that if you use manure in your worm bin, it is a very good idea to use barley.

 

[ShLUbY]

I got the idea of high potassium from an online consultant from the soil tests that I had, she said that the potassium was so high that she couldn't make a recommendation... However, I have been doing more research and I really think that it was the high Phosphorus that was truly killing me! Mehlich 3 test shows that I had 340ppm of Phosphorus and it should only be 30-40ppm, that is a HUGE #... I don't know if you have hear of KIS Oraginics, but I have been listening to his PodCast because he has very good guests like Clackamas Cootz and Jeff Lowenfels. On one of his PodCasts were he was talking about soil tests, he said that cannabis likes higher amounts of K. I could have been wrong about the K, but I bet that it does start having toxicity problems when you have 10x too much, like I did.

Anyways, I am here today to see how/if anyone has used malted barley before. I just got a 55# bag today, the cheap 2 row barley from a brew store... Clackamas says that crab/crustacean meal has chitin and barley has chitinase that breaks down chitin, Chitin+Chitinase= high SAR. I don't want to clog the thread but Don Tesla was one of the few people talking about ferments and I would consider barley being a ferment even if I use it in the worm bin, tell me if I am wrong. I understand that I would sprout the barley, blend it, and use it in the soil or worm bin. Clackamas also said that if you use manure in your worm bin, it is a very good idea to use barley.

phosphorus will cause much more of a problem for the soil than potassium will for sure. interesting stuff about the barley. i'll be tuning in for what people that have experience with it say, cause i've never used it

 

[MustangStudFarm]

phosphorus will cause much more of a problem for the soil than potassium will for sure. interesting stuff about the barley. i'll be tuning in for what people that have experience with it say, cause i've never used it

I didn't think much about barley but Cootz said that he was taking a professional baking course in San Francisco when he learned about the enzymes in barley. He went on to talk about his worm bin exploded after using it in his worm bin... Also, a big part of what Coots was talking about is that a lot of this soil chemistry has not been researched yet such as humic/fulvic acid.

 

[ShLUbY]

I didn't think much about barley but Cootz said that he was taking a professional baking course in San Francisco when he learned about the enzymes in barley. He went on to talk about his worm bin exploded after using it in his worm bin... Also, a big part of what Coots was talking about is that a lot of this soil chemistry has not been researched yet such as humic/fulvic acid.

yeah i read that interview as well. interesting stuff. lots of enzymes and hormones in the barley.

 

[firstnamelast]

Hey all!
I'm back and avoided all problems! lol.. wish I filmed it all for ya. I don't even know where to start. Haha.

Thanks for carrying the dope dialogue along though..I enjoyed catching up here, digging the quality convo.

@firstnamelast


all good friend! .. a bit of a fungal / humus rich compost and Coco based mix with some fresh castings and aeration could be lime free. Just cancel peat by replacing it.

We cut lime out after first year of growing with no problem and much success, but yes I did use rock dusts as well as humus and egg shells. There is something to be said about that, especially of a nice cal mag in-tune recipe with a slew of bene rock minerals. But humus plays a big part, the eggshells did too I guess.

Now I'm testing some peat recipes so crab shell might have to re enter the life. Are you looking to avoid peat and limestone for whatever reason?

Here are some posts I've saved from my buddy Roy down in Mi whom I hope to visit this year.. you may enjoy them for a more rounded view on the organics..

As you will see, there are many ways to get from point A to point B

Glad to hear all went well! No cook is a legit method? My soil ingredients came a bit late and I'm already too far along to be able to cook it in time. I don't really have any qualms with lime, there's more guessing and checking when it comes to pH if you have to lime it correct?

 

[ShLUbY]

Glad to hear all went well! No cook is a legit method? My soil ingredients came a bit late and I'm already too far along to be able to cook it in time. I don't really have any qualms with lime, there's more guessing and checking when it comes to pH if you have to lime it correct?

i find the opposite. the lime helps keep the mix stable. but with that said, any calcium product is going to achieve a liming effect. calcium carbonate + H+ ---> H2O and Ca++ . so it doesn't matter if its Oyster Shell Flour or dolomite lime. They've both served me well and a peat mix should not go without it.

As long as you can get the mix a couple weeks, it will be fine. i've used it as early as 2.5 weeks and saw no ill effect. takes them a week to get fully acclimated anyway, and by then you're close enough to 4 weeks.

 

[firstnamelast]

i find the opposite. the lime helps keep the mix stable. but with that said, any calcium product is going to achieve a liming effect. calcium carbonate + H+ ---> H2O and Ca++ . so it doesn't matter if its Oyster Shell Flour or dolomite lime. They've both served me well and a peat mix should not go without it.

As long as you can get the mix a couple weeks, it will be fine. i've used it as early as 2.5 weeks and saw no ill effect. takes them a week to get fully acclimated anyway, and by then you're close enough to 4 weeks.

I need an up pot pretty much now lol any ideas on how to extend it?

 

[ShLUbY]

I need an up pot pretty much now lol any ideas on how to extend it?

if you're already in living soil, put a topdressing down of kelp, crab shell, oyster shell, and neem. mix it with some compost and topdress and water in. that stuff breaks down fast, and an inch or more of compost will give your roots some room to grow, and more nutrients from the amendments. this will buy you some time. give a EWC tea as well for the soluble and chelated nutrients as well (compost extract tea).

 

[SSGrower]

I didn't think much about barley but Cootz said that he was taking a professional baking course in San Francisco when he learned about the enzymes in barley. He went on to talk about his worm bin exploded after using it in his worm bin... Also, a big part of what Coots was talking about is that a lot of this soil chemistry has not been researched yet such as humic/fulvic acid.

I've used ground barly in bokashi, ive seen people using it as a companion plant too. Id have to believe someone has done a SST.

 

[RandomHero8913]

I've used ground barly in bokashi, ive seen people using it as a companion plant too. Id have to believe someone has done a SST.

Barley was the original SST choice mostly due to its availability. Since then people have observed the same benefit from using malted barley and have gone that route as it’s easier. You can grab some malted barley from a local home brew store for dirt cheap. Grind it up and water it in.

Also you can use other grains like rye, wheat, corn, etc., pretty much anything the home brew store has will work. I buy the cheapest one.

 

[DonTesla]

lol I'm not going to be the one, since I can't really interpret chemical data anyway
But thanks for sharing, it was like opening the hood and staring at the engine when car breaks down, and you haven't got a clue of mechanics

Wowo what's that biomass course?
And how was the trip?!
Cheers!

Sorry for the delay, calli, super busy week is all playing catch up!

Just going back.. re the biochar .. I basically just look for a ph of 7-8, vs 6 or so, since I have a lot of free biomass to neutralize that's already a bit low..

Then I look for a nice and low under 2% ash content, no containment, high surface area as per usual, and an appropriate bulk density to confirm!

Course is really cool, though..its a whole uni campus dedicated to green tech, in which local and enivronmentally-excessive biomass keeps a billion dollars worth of buildings warm, year round, campus wide..
and they apparently have an amazing phD program on soil science, one of the top 5 in Canada, along with courses on converting biomass to biochar and energy,
plus great forestry/ entomology / field courses here.. So sounds like a great fit since two of our deposits are so close to the area..

(Not only is the 2 million tonnes of sawdust and woodchips compost within 2 hours, the 200,000 tonnes of GRD is only 30 mins from the campus). The work ahead is plenty, but the dots are connecting fast enough, considering its winter like all hell here!

Trip went great too btw.. Met some great store owners, and made some great connects... Got a bunch of samples to some stores, opened a lot of doors, and kick started things quite a bit! Protests went really well too, we even avoided the raids by not setting up on the Sunday, and our friends who did get nabbed got released quickly..so that's big. Apparently we were on the news but I have no idea, that's just what several ppl told me, I don't recall no cameras in my face, although the days were very fast paced and action packed. Plus it was raining and we were under manned a bit!

 

[DonTesla]

Here's a shot of the OPGs.. Some from seed last moon or so. Couple wks old. Going on 6 th set..

Background: cross of organic Biker OG x our mighty PG (pink gravy)..

Already frosty with little resin glands and already wreaks.. And very uniform, thus far, too. I'm looking for an indica Dom and uber smelly/ tasty one to go with our nice line of Sativa Dom keepers and this looks to be an interesting show for sure.. With lots of smell and taste potential. Here's to re-finding the 4-1 calyx to leaf ratio.. Thats the one id love to harness

 

[calliandra]

Barley was the original SST choice mostly due to its availability. Since then people have observed the same benefit from using malted barley and have gone that route as it’s easier. You can grab some malted barley from a local home brew store for dirt cheap. Grind it up and water it in.

Also you can use other grains like rye, wheat, corn, etc., pretty much anything the home brew store has will work. I buy the cheapest one.

Actually, I'm seeing people drop the malted barley too, realizing the enzymes are modified in that process. The sproutsy goodness barley has been the go-to for can be obtained from pretty much any sprouts too...
Cheers!