Calli's Conundrums

elkamino said:

Love what you got goin Mo, organic weed and veggies with that lovely inground pool in the background of so many pix over the years. We certainly enjoy different pleasures while smoking here in Alaska, but damn I'm sure its nice to be soaking in that pool while burning one down...

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yup. love mo's pics. they always make me feel good!

Ah thanks for the kind words, @elkamino, and for chiming in @Fevs

Yeah I totally agree, sounds like the strawberries set up a nice comfy soil for themselves there!
I was told by a woman who has been veggie gardening all her life that strawberries have to be replanted every 2 years
- in some other spot too! Ok this is the "we-don't-know-how-to-tend-to-our-soils" part. No rotation is needed with a nicely rounded soil microlife .
But the 2-year-rhythm part?
I haven't been able to ascertain this by observation (not lastly because I tend to let my garden go wild, so it's hard to tell who has been around for how long haha). So, since we're talking about it, I took the opportunity to check:
http://strawberryplants.org/2011/02/life-cycle-of-strawberry-plants/

Aaand this very traditional practice of moving strawberry beds over and over turns out to be total bullshit haha.

The life arc of strawberries begins with the establishment of a new plant, peaks two to three years later, and then proceeds toward senescence and death two to three years following its peak. Under ideal conditions, a strawberry plant can live up to 5-6 years. After 3 productive years, however, they usually begin to loss of vigor, and the production of strawberries begins to decline rapidly.

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In containers it should be much easier to make sure you have offspring in appropriate time intervals - so if last year their production doubled, this year's a good time to establish new plants from the runners they're going to make. That way, your containers can stay perpetual.

Oh and I would add something, as we do need to replenish the soil in containers. Whereby if your soil microlife is really good, all you need do is topdress now and then. I'm currently going through the bonus content from my Ingham course, and there's a webinar in there about container gardening, where she recommends a 50:50 mix of browns and greens, inoculated with good compost tea for replenishing living container soil. Sounds yummy to me!

Possibly, taking a handful or two of the soil and mixing it with the mulch before topdressing would have the same effect, thus shortcutting having to brew an ACT first. IF the microlife in the container is intact. But the plants would let us know that...
Just conundering here again...
I look forward to the pix of your pretties!

Ah and thanks @Mohican for the lovely compost pics... I have a special weakness for the foxy leafy ones haha!
Compost is the shit indeed, and I can hardly wait to have more of it!
(and @ShLUbY nooooo, I hate those pix of his -- they always make me want to pack up and leave for a warmer clime haha)

An oldtime question I like to come back to, again and again, especially right now, as I'll be potting up pretty soon!
How much aeration do you add to your container soils?

@greasemonkeymann - patience?! What's that?
I think thermal compost and wormbins are excellent workarounds for impatient people - the wormbin even moreso, as anyone who has any sort of abode will have space for one

Speaking of which, this is the vermicompost I have coming my way:


very nicely fungal!
There are 3 morphologically distinct hyphae in that one view (and that was typical for the sample), even for my untrained eye. Lots of microaggregates, humic/fulvic acids, different bacteria, and cysts (still need to study those more to distinguish amoebae, flagellates, and spores...) oh and the dark shadow top left, was a bacterial feeding nematode thrashing about

I have 2 tiers going in my bin now, the idea being that the bottom tier contains VC that is almost done, and is just being rechewed until it's completely done, when the remaining worms will migrate upwards. Also, I thought that maybe the worms would stop using what was supposed to be the runoff tray (which it isn't as I don't have runoff ) as a chillout zone, using the bottom tier for that instead.
Well, that didn't happen, and VC still collects down there.
So I scooped the VC that had fallen through (about 2 cups) to the top tier, let light shine on it so the worms would dive under.

This would be a nice way to harvest the VC continuously, I thought, if the biology is ready....
Which is why I checked.
And it's not quite ready:
next to all the lovely sights, I also spotted quite a few ciliates - here's 2, a big one and a little one below it


though otherwise no signs of going anaerobic (the smell is nice and woodsy too).
Possibly I caught this just in time, and it would've gone anaerobic elsewise, squished up down there in that tray as it was..? Or it needs a bit of a rest, like the post-thermal phase of composting?

Either way, note to self: check bottom tray more often and add what dropped through back to the top tier

SSGrower said:

@calliandra killed the cat. Why did you have to go looking in the box?.

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Because I can?
I am a product of the 20th century haha

SSGrower said:

Perhaps it is as simple as just mainting a balanced system, for me one of the most intriguing examples of this are some of the practices summarized by the rudolf steiner agricultural lectures, and of a noteworthy aside many less tangible aspects. Structured water, lunar and stellar influences, ashing insects, seasonal timings...

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I love how you say, "simple" and "balanced system" in one breath - balance being pretty much my biggest challenge, practically in ALL aspects of my life
So yes, let's assume it's as simple as it could be haha

Whereby, biodynamics with its woowoo concoctions wouldn't necessarily make my top-of-list for simplicity either
Interesting you bring them up though! I just realized recently that if one extrapolates what they are actually doing with those potions (and when too!), it comes fascinatingly close to what science is discovering about the soil food web.

And by including these more intangible influences, which all life on Earth is susceptible to, biodynamics goes beyond what microbiology can uncover at present.
Whereby there have been experiments regarding plant sentience and consciousness (described in the Secret life of Plants, or that other Thompkins book, Secrets of the Soil - I always confuse the 2 as I pretty much read them at once lol)

So do you incorporate biodynamics into your garden practice?
Cheers!

I dont quite have ready access to the required pieces and parts required in bd, it is the operatiknal philosophy that a healthy farm is one that provides for itself without havig to bring in fertilizers and pesticides I am most interisrted in. Given 2 preperations, one produced locally and one produced frrom abroad, the one produced on location would be better even if substituions were made this would still be the case. Each piece i disect i come away with some pretty interisting details, for instance the use of a nursing cows horn - the horn is actually part of the animals respiratory system and when foraging through the fields it is snorting and sniffing and disturbing the soil while searchi g out the tender healthy bits of grass it seeks. This allows the soil microbes to take up residence inside the cow, in theory the are then availble for the compost preperation.

The structuring of water - seems to be a preference for deep artesian well water, what is present at great depth that might influence this? Deuterium (or heavy water). Ths is nothing other than wild speculation on my part but I cant help but draw at least a passing connection here.

I'm mostly interisted in mimicing the philosophy if not the exact concotions. I use a bd compost tea purchased from a detemer ranch a few hours drive from where I live, I plant during full moon in ascention, and harvest on flower days, but really what gets my gears going is creating light. Back in the day (rudolff's day) the gas lantern was the only viable source of synthesized light available, today there are a number of options, still none beat the sun. I think even if I'm not going off grid, the fewer resources and less energy used the better.

I also make wine and will make every effort I can to rack and bottle close to perigee and during ascention lunar cycles, imo it adds to clarity and reduction of unwanted tannins. On a side note, attempting to sprout some grapes to add to the garden in a year or so.

Conundrum #5
Quick soil tune-up with store-bought soil

Have I mentioned that having a microscope makes buying anything soil-related a nightmare?!
I've literally been scoping out bagged soils these past weeks - at the usual suspects' - garden centers and the diy store nearby and ugh.
I ended up buying 2 bags from my supermarket lol
Because it was being stocked indoors,
because it was the first brand admonishing "this is a natural product and must be stored correctly, and any white mycelium that may form is normal",
and because it smelled of my portuguese grandfather's vegetable garden.

From my very diffuse understanding of values, however, there is waaay too much phosphorus in there for mycos to be happy....
Anything else that could be cause for concern?



So I am thinking on how to stretch this soil to dilute the nute content enough to make it nice for mycorrhizae and the rest of the soil food web.
Because today, I got this in the mail - no idea about those in the 2nd row, they were freebies lol


...and I may have to have 3 plants in my 1st grow instead of 2 big bushes as I was dreaming of, couldn't resist that LSD-25 (a dark gal ), but do need to grow sour stomper and the pineapple express as control plants, since I've grown them before.
In any case, high time to get my growroom up, giving me just enough time to get a nice soil for these babies started - I hope no longer than 2-3 weeks till sprout. That's the plan, at least, and hope and all that lol

Sooo!
I have 80L of organic soil mix, containing, in unknown amounts,

• peat
• wood chip compost
• plant material from market gardens and landscaping
• clay
• perlite
• calcium carbonate
• and "purely organic, plant based NP-fertilizer" (note the redundancy... lol )

They say to mix it 50:50 with garden soil when using it to plant shrubs.
50:50 sounds good to me... just a feeling though, any pointers welcome!

I want lots of aeration in there, that's for sure, and I want the biology.
So I'm going to add 8L of biochar steeped in compost tea (=10% of total volume).
Thinking of adding another 10%'s worth of my soilifying soil to it too, though that doesn't necessarily add to aeration. I'll check the biology then decide.
Leaving me with 30% - for... all aeration? Vermiculite? Perlite? Leaves?!
I'd love to add 10% vermicompost, but currently only have 3L that are done, and always have to have some on hand for the compost teas... so I have like 2L VC.

And I have eggshells I could add. A cup or two.
I think 2-3 weeks is too short to add in anything like kelp, neem, or coffee grounds?
...let alone do a round of soilifying. Those fresh nutes will have to be fed in the form of juices, which is fine, as long as I have a nicely structured, well-populated soil food web in there

What I also have, is 40L of soil that has gotten a tad sandy for my taste, but seems to be living, if one believes the worms in there



Maybe I should just mix that soil with the new stuff, add the ACT-soaked biochar and some other aeration and be done with it? I need to disturb it anyway, as I want to switch to fabric pots.
OTOH I don't want to end up ruining an otherwise perfectly nice cannabis-growing soil

What would you guys do?
Cheers!

SSGrower said:

I dont quite have ready access to the required pieces and parts required in bd, it is the operatiknal philosophy that a healthy farm is one that provides for itself without havig to bring in fertilizers and pesticides I am most interisrted in. Given 2 preperations, one produced locally and one produced frrom abroad, the one produced on location would be better even if substituions were made this would still be the case. Each piece i disect i come away with some pretty interisting details, for instance the use of a nursing cows horn - the horn is actually part of the animals respiratory system and when foraging through the fields it is snorting and sniffing and disturbing the soil while searchi g out the tender healthy bits of grass it seeks. This allows the soil microbes to take up residence inside the cow, in theory the are then availble for the compost preperation.

The structuring of water - seems to be a preference for deep artesian well water, what is present at great depth that might influence this? Deuterium (or heavy water). Ths is nothing other than wild speculation on my part but I cant help but draw at least a passing connection here.

I'm mostly interisted in mimicing the philosophy if not the exact concotions. I use a bd compost tea purchased from a detemer ranch a few hours drive from where I live, I plant during full moon in ascention, and harvest on flower days, but really what gets my gears going is creating light. Back in the day (rudolff's day) the gas lantern was the only viable source of synthesized light available, today there are a number of options, still none beat the sun. I think even if I'm not going off grid, the fewer resources and less energy used the better.

I also make wine and will make every effort I can to rack and bottle close to perigee and during ascention lunar cycles, imo it adds to clarity and reduction of unwanted tannins. On a side note, attempting to sprout some grapes to add to the garden in a year or so.

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Yeah, the spectacular thing, and also something to be wary of, is that Steiner got these notions into his head by intuition, or connecting to the cosmic soup, or however you want to name it - that ability our brains already have, but the which we aren't developing, preferring instead to devolve and reduce our mental activity to our reptile brains...

So when you access information in this intuitive way, it often comes as images.
IMHO, it doesn't really have to be the horn of nursing cow, burying that dung basically inoculates it with soil microbes, who compost it over the winter...
The underlying supposition is that the soils are still healthy. It's a maintenance system, not a restoration one. And as such, given how much less work it is to throw the worms some chopped veggies, or throw together a thermal compost, it's way too fussy for my taste.
Whereby that in itself is also an aspect of biodynamics: it's a way of life, a kind of dance they do, incorporating techniques and ritual into one. This also creates a certain state of mind, which is also relevant - just think of MAsaru Emoto's visualizations of what different "vibes" do to the cristallization structure of water

Cool that you work with the moon too!
Can you explain why full moon for planting??
In general, I like to plant a few days before new moon, for germination with the earthbound energy, and then sprouting with the heavenbound.
Interesting that, with the wine, and cool you have the possibility to experiment!
Cheers

calliandra said:

Yeah, the spectacular thing, and also something to be wary of, is that Steiner got these notions into his head by intuition, or connecting to the cosmic soup, or however you want to name it - that ability our brains already have, but the which we aren't developing, preferring instead to devolve and reduce our mental activity to our reptile brains...

So when you access information in this intuitive way, it often comes as images.
IMHO, it doesn't really have to be the horn of nursing cow, burying that dung basically inoculates it with soil microbes, who compost it over the winter...
The underlying supposition is that the soils are still healthy. It's a maintenance system, not a restoration one. And as such, given how much less work it is to throw the worms some chopped veggies, or throw together a thermal compost, it's way too fussy for my taste.
Whereby that in itself is also an aspect of biodynamics: it's a way of life, a kind of dance they do, incorporating techniques and ritual into one. This also creates a certain state of mind, which is also relevant - just think of MAsaru Emoto's visualizations of what different "vibes" do to the cristallization structure of water

Cool that you work with the moon too!
Can you explain why full moon for planting??
In general, I like to plant a few days before new moon, for germination with the earthbound energy, and then sprouting with the heavenbound.
Interesting that, with the wine, and cool you have the possibility to experiment!
Cheers

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LMFAO What you call cosmic soup I call Universe Juice, a term I derive from one that was used in the most educational of films "Kung Fu Panda" a definite must see. Gonna need more than just dew..... anthroposophy google should be able to help from there if you wanna go down that rabbits hole.

As I so hoped for the sake of others you so very well clarify the science behind my incoherent psychobabble. I do prefer to form opinions based in science but cannot deny the interconnected feng shueness of "IT". note the capitalization of the word IT, not "insert name of religions deity here".

I believe you elude to a fundamental issue of humanity by saying:

"I don't deny there is chemistry going on, I don't even deny that all the things talked about in the chemistry-based mindset are relevant to plant growth. And quite possibly, when I get a better hold on all of this, I may even dip into that side of the process too, if only to be able to communicate better with those who are still thinking in that mindset. "

It is a source of particular division amongst us 'mericans right now with the political situation right now.
.
Going to have to educate myself on Masru Emoto. I have such a hard time gathering and compiling all the bits of info, but the name Callahan comes to mind I don't know if there is any relation between the two tho. Which further muddies the water in my case because the thing I think I was looking at was the benefit of a high brix soil, which also to some correlates to a desirable wine. Keep in mind that this is the same group that finds it desirable in certain cases to have "notes of dirty diaper".....(in wines). I will drop another term and see what ya'll think Coriolis effect.

So to me it is not just full moon (and being in a location far from any ocean this is something I am looking for more information on), but the forces responsible for tidal influences. Quick summary rambling on why I feel this way...the fundamental "particle" responsible for gravity though it has not been found the effects of which are well documented. In my experience gravity always wins. Fight gravity and you end up with broken bones. Back to the question at hand (m1r1-m2r2)/c(d^2) + (g1)(g2)/c(d^2) or some such sciencey equation (please do not check me for accuracy) indicates the gravitational force between two objects. Notice (well in all honesty in the real calculation) there is no limitation on d the distance between the two objects as the force is omnipresent, this also happens to be true of strong and weak force (crs but i think one of these increases with distance), electromagnetism and all can act both on a sub atomic level and at the universe scale.
So the answer is I place more emphasis on 2 of the three lunar cycles (ascending/descending - moon rise/set moves north/south on horizon and apogee/perigee - due to ecliptic orbit). Since these cycles do not follow the same schedule they will very rarely align when and where they need to during the garden season, I prioritize by picking a month, in that month there hopefully is a time when the moon has not yet crossed the northern node, has not yet reached perigee, and is not yet full (opposite your approach though I agree with you for the purpose of soil health, I am isolating to the seed). If it were to be at the northern node, at perigee and full, I would view two days prior to this to be an ideal planting time, any seeds that need scarification and pre-soaking would be ready to go into "the ground" 2 days prior. I have no scientific basis for this reasoning other than to maximize the flow of these as of yet undetected gravitons that must be there according to physics but we have yet to actually seen them.

OK with that many words now I have some pics to share
@greasemonkeymann , @ShLUbY , @Mohican I can only try my best, no professional here this is all hobby for me.

I use a lot of containers, they will go here:

Hearty chives surviving the winter

With a little help..

The Christmas cactus were cloned, the mother did not survive, The pansy is 4 years old this fall, so I gave it some siblings. The little white pvc in the corner is my first attempt at a SIP, contemplating a fermenting SIP.

I still have some hydro store bottles, including fulvic and humic, but the milk jugs are EWT.


These are the solids and soil amendments.


A new raised bed I'm working on

My compost pile, no turn layers of organic and pine needles, will probably take another year before I can get away from buying compost. The pine needles help keep the deer from eating the spent grape must I think, otherwise in an afternoon they'd eat what I produce.



My current pride and joy, a diminishing light cycle smart timer environmental controller...


My attempt at a worm bin has been a failure too wet too cold, will be hitting reset on that. I'd like to find an way to safely incorporate dog waste into my composting but the risk of harmful parasites is not only of concern but the capacity for their reduction has benefit too. I have not tried ACT but look to. CHAO from someplace nowhere near you...

The scene a few days ago and probably gonna look a lot like that here in the near future too.

Haha @SSGrower, I'm nowhere near as smart as you seem to think I am
Or let's just say my brain, and especially my memory, has gone for an extended hike...

I'd have to go dig up my moon book for anything specific - I use Johanna Paungger's first (oh! it's been translated to English: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0615760147/ref=as_li_tl) - she's from the region here and explains old local customs connected to the moon cycles too AFAIK in biodynamics they like to use Maria Thun's calendars, so there may be slight differences (the concepts remaining the same of course) there too.

But as said, I just watch out for the moon in very general terms nowadays... actually, I kind of have it in my system, and start thinking of certain tasks when, lo! the moon is favorable for just that.
Paungger doesn't take the apogee/perigee cycle into account in that book, whereby I can imagine that distance to the earth does make a difference...and that reminds me of a conundrum I've been carrying around for a few years, and keep observing.
So a question for you!
from your more detailed perspective, is there an explanation for the new moons to be so palpably strong in the springtime, northern hemisphere? perhaps in that time the moon is closest to Earth?

Oh but the influence of the moon, it's everywhere where there is water - and your body contains 70% of it, even if you don't drink enough, as most of us haha... no matter whether you're close to large bodies of water or not?
But then again, I'm totally in simplifying mode, so I may be cutting corners there, whilst you're looking for intricate detail! At least that's the impression I get from your diminishing light cycle controller - way cool that!

OMG looks like you're in a colder climate than me, we're only getting snow on the mountain tops at the mo, though fat heavy snow can still happen until mid-May..... my condolences?
Yeah easiest thing to do under such conditions is have the wormbin indoors. Because good compost is at the heart of a living soil, and makes growing organic truly more simple than anything else, just as grease said above.

I keep mine in the middle of my kitchen/dining/living room at the mo


If managed correctly, theres no smell - I find adding food & bedding so that the "browns" and "greens" are in balance does the trick. I'm not measuring or calculating though, just going by feel - like when I add a lot of orange peels (and yes, I do that without problems, though it's usually listed as a no-no), I will just add more leaves than usual under the food.
Also, fruit flies never even start if you freeze the fruity leftovers before use.
The only thing I haven't gotten under control is the fungus gnats, I think I should have more soil mites in the bin (and I did use to..), they can decimate gnat larvae.

Is the EWT = Earthworm tea?
And what does that even mean...

• is it wormbin runoff?
  If so, don't use! especially if it smells bad! the likelihood of bad guys being in there is really high, especially after being stored in bottles under anaerobic conditions like that.
  The only reason that runoff even seems to "work" is the humic/fulvic acids, and the facultative microbes that usually are in there.
  So by applying it, you may be moving your microfauna in the wrong direction to then get those facultatives to fix the situation again?
  
  
• is it vermicompost extract?
  i.e., water was poured through a portion of VC to extract mainly humic/fulvic acids but also microorganisms
  This stuff is also only good fresh!

As for your compost pile, I think especially on the no-turn ones it'll be important to have a good C:N ratio, which you get by just adding the right amount of browns (your pine needles, if they were brown when they fell off the tree) to compensate for the "greens" (spent grape in this case, as well as anything that got cut down whilst still green).
For hot composting the overall C:N is 30 if I err not...(edit: and manure, even human manure, can be composted so that any pathogens are taken care of in this way too!)
someone with actual experience may want to chime in on that

Greasemonkey's Compost pile is a nice resource for getting the composting right:
https://www.rollitup.org/t/greasemonkeys-compost-pile.893592/

And Rasta Roy's Intro to organic growing explains many essential concepts, especially with regard to building a living soil: https://www.rollitup.org/t/organic-growing-an-introductory-guide.921380/

But hey, you've gotten started! the first step is always the most challenging, especially for people who tend to think things into their minutest detail?
Just speaking for myself here lol
Cheers

I cut plenty of corners, I do get lost in the details frequently tho.
Maria Thun's calendar is as I understand based on european timing, I loosely use one provided by bach biodynamics http://www.bachbiodynamics.com/uploads/1/6/3/6/16367710/2017_planting_calendar.pdf
This calendar has some summary info about the planting research he is doing, but unfortunately what was envisioned as a collaborative effort has not yet taken off as such for him.

I like the" what does that even mean?" certainly is not a tea I'd be drinking. I guess it is vermicompost extract. This action is what I believe what caused the demise of my worm bin so I will share, if you can withhold your laughter I would much appreciate it. 6 gallon bucket worm bin holes in bottom sitting in a 5 gallon bucket so liquid can drain. All was going well, a few soil mites? (garden store employee called them mealy bugs, tiny white guys that live in a droplets of water). Poured 1 gallon of EME (EM-1 brewed with molasses), AND another gallon of water. What you see in the pic is 3/4 gallon of the roughly 1.5 gallons that drained through. All the worms that were left in the bin were balled up on top the next day and I realized the error of my ways. I feel a little bad that I willingly sacrificed the worms but I wanted to see if I could save any of them without starting a new bin. Not likely as I think the population is down to single digits now, the bugs took over so I've just been letting them be.

With regard to freshness my original plan was not to keep the extract more than 30 days, smell is still earthy 45 days on, mixed 1/4 to 1/2 cup per gallon, I have not seen any adverse affects but then what do I know? Is 30 days too long to keep? Can it be refrigerated?

So I'll take a stab at this one:
is there an explanation for the new moons to be so palpably strong in the springtime, northern hemisphere? perhaps in that time the moon is closest to Earth? - I don't know that this would have anything at all with the actual alignment of lunar cycles but could it just be the fact that it is Spring?, the time of renewal?

The three lunar cycles are each about 30 days long (moon goes round earth, moons orbit "wobbles", moons distance from earth varies). There are particular years when these cycles align in the spring and others where they align in the fall. For some reason the number 17 is coming to mind as the number of years it takes for the cycles to make a complete flip. This is one area where I think biodynamics reaches a kind of juxt opposition with indoor gardening/farming techniques. Steiner likely never intended nor desired synthetic lighting IMO. You bring up a good point about northern vs. southern hemisphere, I am speaking from a northern hemisphere perspective, when speaking of ascending an descending phases the terminology is reversed in the southern hemisphere (Southern hemisphere = moon approaching southern node - ascending, moon approaching northern node - descending).

Side note - Moon is out just as much during the day as it is at night. Fun to watch the smoke come out of some peoples ears as they process this. Really just an indication of how people allow their biases to get the better part of their judgement Moon = Night, Right? Wrong!!!

In America one can make a full time job out of a lot of what may seem to outsiders as silly things. I believe one in particular is our dog waste issue. I think it will require a combination of techniques but likely, the biggest hurdle will be public perception not the technical aspect. There are a couple of companies/municipalities that focus on this issue but they are very careful to say "compost for ornamental use only". Perhaps laughingly to outsiders, we follow our dogs around (some even put diapers on the beasts!), bags in hand, reach down, come into direct intimate contact with the substance that was excreted from this animals colon. This wonderful product, now preserved by anarobic isolation, is then kicked down the road for the next generation.

I am certain to have missed a lot of valuable information here, so it is time for me to re-read, @calliandra you are likely twice as smart as I think you are.
(I'll let you decide if that is a compliment or insult.)

SSGrower said:

I cut plenty of corners, I do get lost in the details frequently tho.
Maria Thun's calendar is as I understand based on european timing, I loosely use one provided by bach biodynamics http://www.bachbiodynamics.com/uploads/1/6/3/6/16367710/2017_planting_calendar.pdf
This calendar has some summary info about the planting research he is doing, but unfortunately what was envisioned as a collaborative effort has not yet taken off as such for him.

Click to expand...

Interesting!
I don't have the focus to read his explanation, but from a quick scan and the calendar itself - it's a very different approach from Paungger!
In her calendars, the moon phases and ascension patterns are connected with the daily qualities (root-earth, leaf-water, flower-air, fruit-fire) and the sidereal sign. So there ends up being pretty much only one window in springtime where if you turn your soil then, followed by another day with another quality, you won't have weeds there. haha
Or, don't cut your hair on fish days, you'll get dandruff
Leo's the day to go for - and when the book came out, all hairdressers were overbooked onthose days lol
It was a fad, but underneath there are principles to respect.

The very simple principle of the flow of energy in a plant (and indeed, all living beings) through the lunar cycle.
Ever notice plant growth explosion right after new moon?
It's the life energy being pulled upwards by the tides.
I went on vacation in Kenya once, it was spectacular how the tide heights varied with the phase of the moon -- on the days around full moon high tide was around 3m!! whilst around new moon there was hardly a difference to lowtide. How amazing, to see the influence of the moon so distinctly!

So imagine, in spring, the trees, those buds, just about ready to burst into life.
And then comes the errant arborist, and cuts back that tree just then, around full moon.
Where are the life juices now??? Must one wonder that the tree grows sickly?
(Thankfully, the local arborists have changed that, and I hear most chainsaws around new moon nowadays.
But sheeez! I used to stop to yell at them for their idiocy lol)

And from that very simple basic rhythm, we can become more specific. The day to plant lettuce is not the same as the day to plant potatoes.
But this all should be mediated by the actual conditions in the garden, else it quickly becomes quite absurd. If it's snowing but it's the perfect day to plant radishes? I think not haha

SSGrower said:

So I'll take a stab at this one:

Click to expand...

Ah thanks!
Hmmmm... so if I followed you correctly, to verify any connection, I should have documented in which years it was "worse" - because there are years that are worse, I can remember that much
Ohwell, we have to leave some mystery to life don't we

SSGrower said:

I like the" what does that even mean?" certainly is not a tea I'd be drinking. I guess it is vermicompost extract. This action is what I believe what caused the demise of my worm bin so I will share, if you can withhold your laughter I would much appreciate it. 6 gallon bucket worm bin holes in bottom sitting in a 5 gallon bucket so liquid can drain. All was going well, a few soil mites? (garden store employee called them mealy bugs, tiny white guys that live in a droplets of water). Poured 1 gallon of EME (EM-1 brewed with molasses), AND another gallon of water. What you see in the pic is 3/4 gallon of the roughly 1.5 gallons that drained through. All the worms that were left in the bin were balled up on top the next day and I realized the error of my ways. I feel a little bad that I willingly sacrificed the worms but I wanted to see if I could save any of them without starting a new bin. Not likely as I think the population is down to single digits now, the bugs took over so I've just been letting them be.

With regard to freshness my original plan was not to keep the extract more than 30 days, smell is still earthy 45 days on, mixed 1/4 to 1/2 cup per gallon, I have not seen any adverse affects but then what do I know? Is 30 days too long to keep? Can it be refrigerated?

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Oh tis not a laughing matter at all! Tis a sad example of the misinformation out there, where yes, runoff is forced by watering the bin, and yes, it's a sort of extract, but a good vc extract is made from finished vermicompost (and water only, incidentally), i.e., where the biology has settled and the facultatives and anaerobes (like that ciliate I found in the fall-through vc the other day) have receded.

Think of the layers your fluid washes through as it seeps down into your runoff tray!
Some bedding, some freshly decomposing stuff that may even be hot a bit, some slurry stuff in a pocket somewhere that is yet to be processed, and then through to more processed material. So along with the desired microfauna, we are also getting a set of those that we wanted to leave in our bin - because they're great there, but not so great at all in our plants' rhizospheres

And then, keeping them statically in bottles... I get stressed out when it takes half an hour to get my compost tea out onto my plants.
And that may sound (and even be, haha) hysterical! But James Sotilo, a prominent New Yorkian landscaper (http://www.elmscapes.com/index.html), who not only planned but maintains lots of public spaces in the city, has this compost tea tank on a trailer he takes everywhere, and bubbles the tea all the time until he goes to apply it to the trees or lawns or whatnot.

My personal 2cents, what I'd do if I had it in my hands this moment and had to decide? If I had a really bad part of the garden, I'd go pour all of it, probably diluted, out there, and good riddance. lol

What happened in your bin was the EM, if I conunder correctly
EM as far as I get them are mainly facultative microbes, i.e. they can flourish in aerobic as well as anaerobic conditions.
By adding great amounts of moisture to the bin, there was surely a moment where it was anaerobic enough for the EM to take off whilst the pure aerobes were struggling for sheer survival. And worms can't live in anaerobic conditions.

But if you have survivors, they can be rehabbed
Actually that was my first wormbin: an acquaintance had gotten hers all anaerobic by adding waaay too much hi-N and nooo bedding to counterbalance it, and then topped it off with soybean meal (in an attempt to "dry" the bin out a bit haha).
Soybean meal is hi-N too

So I got this totally putrid bin to fix and ended up taking most of the old stuff out.
Had about 30 worms left total, but in the new bedding, and with a more healthy nutrition, they recovered and had almost become a real herd again by springtime.
From what I've learned in the past few months, today I'd be tempted to mix the old stuff with good carbon-rich material, let it settle (heat? smell?), and then feed it back to them in small portions.
So there's still hope for your guys too, hey, they survived, right?! they should get a second chance

re dog manure:
lol yeah, in compost toilet environments the recommendation is also: just for perennials, mostly non-edible perennials at that too.
But that's because in the compost toilet system yes, we have an adequate c:N ration if it's managed properly, BUT it doesn't get hot composted.
So pathogens can still be in there and all that.

But with a proper thermal composting, anything that was iffey in there is neutralized, so theoretically it should be good to go onto the veggies too haha

SSGrower said:

(I'll let you decide if that is a compliment or insult.)

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LOL will I learn from my errant ways and not open this box?
Cheers!

So glad for the response. I have such a minute understanding of what makes for the interpretation of a root day vs. flower day, vs fruit day I am totally reliant on others for information, much the same as I am with soil microbial life/web. Therefore am subject to the potential for using vast amounts of incorrect information. I do see an advantage to this approach though in the way I try to approach things without bias, kind of difficult to bias a study in any direction when the mechanisms at play aren't actually fully understood. But then it also can lead down a number of false paths.

I will dump the bin in the next month or so, contents will be buried under spring compost pile, survivors extricated. One rather unusual constraint I place on myself with regard to thermal composting and why I try to avoid it is that if I catch a pile on fire where I live it would likely be the type of story that makes national news because xxx hundred houses were destroyed, xx thousand people evacuated.....I live in an area that prior to human occupancy was a fire evolved ecology.

Hopefully what I do and say here will not cause you too much angst, as this may be a fundamental difference in how we approach problem solving but it is my intent to increase the concentration from what I used last time on at least one healthy container plant. I will also try your suggestion in an area that will get a handful of wildflower seed mix here in not too long.
The fact that the EM is anaerobic is what leads me to believe it is ok to keep the solution for some period of time. Interesting that the worm bin has not yet gone putrid, it certainly has a healthy population of what I was told were mealy bugs so I have for better or worse allowed them to propagate freely for the most part (I can hear them eating I think).
So with regard to compost teas, what you're sayin is I should get an airstone and bubbler?
They are high on my list of things to get, along with a microscope. Which would you prioritize?
Excellent resource you are establishing here.
BTW got almost 2ft of snow over the last 2 days, should be melted in another 2.

@calliandra are those just wet mount slides or are you adding any types of dyes or anything to them?

ShLUbY said:

@calliandra are those just wet mount slides or are you adding any types of dyes or anything to them?

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just a drop of 1ml sample diluted to 5 with tap water. And then shadowing via iris diaphragm.
Under the microscope itself, it's translucent and multicolored and not blue at all, the edges are sharper too. But I do still struggle getting the condenser right and could use a live session with a savvy person to check on how I'm doing things.
But the blue, it's the camera, it sucks, and I keep having software woes too, which is unnerving, since I used to be a programmer and technical stuff used to be easypeasy..
quoth the raven, nevermore! lol
I do regret having gotten a microscope with the camera built in, but it was just what I could afford at the time and I was itching to get started. It's like it usually is, when buying cheap you end up buying twice, but oh well
Do you do microscope work at uni?

Oh and @SSGrower, yeah there's lots of snake oil out there, it gets easier to tell when you're armed with knowledge though.
The USDA published a little book about the soil food web a while ago, the Soil Biology Primer, it's a great place to start
You can even read it for free online: https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/detailfull/soils/health/biology/?cid=nrcs142p2_053860

Or if you're more the auditory type, there's a great talk by Elaine Ingham at a conference in the UK, gets linked alot here on RIU too haha


As for prioritizing, aerating your compost tea definitely is more important than being able to assess an otherwise anaerobic soup (which needs learning too btw).
You can actually use your nose to monitor the general drift of your tea - if it starts smelling like baby breath... it's growing lactobacilli and you have to aerate more to turn it back around. So you don't necessarily need a microscope for that.
Of course you'll want to know if your compost has all the biology in it, but as you find your feeding style and stock additions, you can start making pretty consistent VC. And then, you can just get your VC tested by a lab that does microbial assays (and there are quite a few now over in America), so you know whether the way you're doing it actually gives you the potent base material for your gardens
Cheers!

@SSGrower definitely check out Elaine's stuff. It makes a lot of sense, and she presents it in a way that is very easy to grasp concepts.

@calliandra thanks for the slide info. you are right... buy cheap buy twice! but honestly the images aren't bad. hell my phone takes a nice picture of scope slides when i'm in the bio lab at school! i just shoot through one of the lenses! takes a sec to get the image right but it's not bad!

I've been so busy lately. haven't been able to do much participating on here. didn't even make it home for the weekend. my rear end is in pieces on the car (LOL). and it's supposed to snow 5 inches tomorrow and we have to work on it in the elements... ugh, the punches just keep coming the last couple weeks! when it rains.... it... well.... umm here it snows!

oh yeah... what would you recommend for a book/guide to using the moon for gardening.... i think i have some lessons to be learned

calliandra said:

Conundrum #3:
Improving the soil for strawberries with mycorrhizae

I know I don't have enough compost, but I just can't stop haha
So about every 2 years, I have to pull the goutweed, which is firmly (and unreachably) established between the roots of a hydrangea, out of the strawberries, because otherwise, no more strawberries.

Before:View attachment 3913654

For those who have never seen goutweed roots:
often, the whole strawberry root mass has to be taken apart, either because the goutweed roots can't be pulled out, or because there's a suspicion there may be more strands inside
View attachment 3913657
It's always more than one thought haha
View attachment 3913659

It's a massive disturbance -- but strawberries like it more fungal, and hence preferably undisturbed lol
So to make up for the chaos and destruction, I innoculated every plant with mycos powder before planting it back into the soil.
Here we can see the area that was weeded & mycorrhized:
View attachment 3913660

Of course, everything got mulched up again in the end.
Leaving the goutweed roots to dry along the edge of the bed as protection from the elements.
After:
View attachment 3913662

I took samples from the tilled part and from the part to the right of the dug-up patch, but didn't see much difference in the samples: in both, the soil structure just "melted", giving very particle-rich samples.
However, there are indications of life in there nonetheless. Bacteria of course, but here, I also found a few strands of fungi, albeit no active "higher" organisms like large flagellates, amoebae or nematodes.

From the clumps of humic / fulvic acids that are all over the soil, there must have been more life in there previously, which brings me back to my newbieness, not knowing whether samples just look like this in spring in general

Here's a really nice one, with tons of fungi starting to grow out on the bottom:
View attachment 3913676
There's also a really interesting growth on the top - looks snake-like but consists of...bacteria I think?
Could be a hypha dissolving, having gotten eaten, and now the bacteria are just hanging out lazily in the glues they produced eating?
View attachment 3913681

I think on this one, I'm not going to do anything else this year (and if I do decide to give them protoplasma water/chlorophyll water, or magically have compost/tea, all of them will get that), just let em grow, and see how soil and plants develop in the mycorrhized part.
Cheers!

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What myco powder did you use, do you have a preference?

ShLUbY said:

@SSGrower definitely check out Elaine's stuff. It makes a lot of sense, and she presents it in a way that is very easy to grasp concepts.

@calliandra thanks for the slide info. you are right... buy cheap buy twice! but honestly the images aren't bad. hell my phone takes a nice picture of scope slides when i'm in the bio lab at school! i just shoot through one of the lenses! takes a sec to get the image right but it's not bad!

I've been so busy lately. haven't been able to do much participating on here. didn't even make it home for the weekend. my rear end is in pieces on the car (LOL). and it's supposed to snow 5 inches tomorrow and we have to work on it in the elements... ugh, the punches just keep coming the last couple weeks! when it rains.... it... well.... umm here it snows!

Click to expand...

@calliandra so true about having to buy things twice, thanks for the heads up on the camera combo. No offence to the swiss, they do make a great knife, but when I need a screwdriver, I NEED a screwdriver.

@ShLUbY sucks working on cold metal, on the wet ground. I'm looking for the book I have, stand by it may be a while...

ShLUbY said:

@SSGrower definitely check out Elaine's stuff. It makes a lot of sense, and she presents it in a way that is very easy to grasp concepts.

@calliandra thanks for the slide info. you are right... buy cheap buy twice! but honestly the images aren't bad. hell my phone takes a nice picture of scope slides when i'm in the bio lab at school! i just shoot through one of the lenses! takes a sec to get the image right but it's not bad!

I've been so busy lately. haven't been able to do much participating on here. didn't even make it home for the weekend. my rear end is in pieces on the car (LOL). and it's supposed to snow 5 inches tomorrow and we have to work on it in the elements... ugh, the punches just keep coming the last couple weeks! when it rains.... it... well.... umm here it snows!

Click to expand...

OHlol I think I need to try that out, photographing with my cellphone through the eyepiece
could get difficult when I'm chasing nematodesand flagellates, but maybe it can give an impression of what I actually see when I examine my samples, and more static critter pix...
Yeah the pix I get definitely are better than nothing, I've gotten to look at sooo many things I could then share with you guys!

So are they teaching you the shadowing technique at uni now too?!
A while back, I was hoping on an acquaintance who had studied microbiology for help in ironing out my microscope woes, but she went all "ohnoooo, you can't see microorganisms like that! You need to dry, stain them first and then need a mega-scope to even have a chance!" on me
Maybe I should speak less of identifying microbes and more of assessing the soil ecosystem, to get les of a turned-off reaction? Because in effect, I'm not really identifying, just assessing diversity by morphology, which is exactly what we want to know for our purposes, not necessarily that it was an euglenia so-and-so, but that we have active flagellates in there...

Ew sorry to read you've run into one of those phases!! I hope it lets you off the hook again soon... and you get your butt back into shape lol

ShLUbY said:

oh yeah... what would you recommend for a book/guide to using the moon for gardening.... i think i have some lessons to be learned

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Well I can't really recommend one, seeing I've only read one and have no comparative impressions... but OTOH, seeing I never ever needed another, and I practiced following the moon intensely for a few years, it can't have been that bad either

So that said, I'd definitely recommend Johana Paungger's The Power of Timing (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0615760147/ref=as_li_tl)
She explains the cycles and all so you can really integrate it into your intuitive understanding, the book answers just about every question I ever had by explaining the underlying principles. So you're not dependent on external "interpretation" - if you're willing to think for yourself .
And there's a long chapter where she discusses all the influences and how they affect gardening practice, one by one. Like what is good on Leo days in the ascending/descending, waxing/waning phases of the moon.
Lots of people swear by Maria Thun's system, but personally I found it illogical and hard to follow, whilst Paungger's approach feels naturally logical to me.

I just checked out the amazon link -- you can look inside, which I just did too
In doing so, it dawned upon me that living in the region where she is from, there may be something rootsy going on, that I can understand her system so easily because I live in the climate and vegetation it originated from (especially the forestry chapter brought that home to me).
So I think it's definitely also worth looking into local Native American lore for pointers as to living with the natural rythms as they affect your area. So much to be discovered!!!

Yesterday I was th the mycos' company's store and got into a horrific rant when the guy said "fertilizer" (Oh don't talk to me about fertilizer, I'm so sick of it!! We need to stop feeding the plants and care for the soil instead!! blablablablabla!!!... you can imagine, poor guy LOL)
Anyway, my concluding words were, "then we can all hang out in our hammocks and have an easy life".
He thought that would be boring.
But the world is so full of wonder and mystery, we'll never get bored, ever!!!

edit: FML today seems to be anti-spelling day, I keep finding more typos in this, and now give up haha

SSGrower said:

What myco powder did you use, do you have a preference?

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I'm using "Mycorrhiza soluble" from www.gluckspilze.com
just bought myself another kilo of it yesterday

Not lastly because their office/shop/lab is a 10min bike ride away from me, and I am hoping we can cooperate in some way
I'm not entirely happy with that mix, as it is a "one-size-fits-all" formulation and it bothers me that I'm spreading out millions of ectomycorrhizal spores onto soil that isn't designated to grow anything that needs them.
BUT I've compared it with others, e.g. the pure endo-mix from Mycorrhizal Applications, who are the guys with the best rep (actually, I was disappointed haha) over on your side of the ocean. The glückspilze mix is more diverse!
So I'll just take the ectos, no harm done, along with the endos I actually need for now.
Apparently, in like 6 months they're going to start a new system; where I'll be able to choose which mycos I want in my mix!!

Probably, all myco companies are going to revise their formulations soon too, as more and more people read Jeff Lowenfels' new book, Teaming with Fungi, (an ABSOLUTE recommend btw!!!) and start asking pesky half-educated questions about the Rhizophagus fasciculatus that is in none of the mixes I've looked at so far, but has been found to greatly support the effect of the endomycorrhizal workhorses, Rhizophagus intraradices (formerly known as Glomus intraradices) and Funneliformis Mosseae (formerly know as Glomus Mosseae).

My stance on this is:
we still don't know enough about mycorrhizae to be able to pinpoint "this one for these plants" or "that one for those plants".
Also, I think that's never really going to happen, as I suspect nature has set it all up to work best when there's a whole network of diverse fungi present. This actually comes through in quite a few of the studies Lowenfels mentions, where fungi together perform better than each alone.
Aw but we already knew that, didn't we, that the whole is always more than its parts. I love it when simple principles like that shine through!

Also, we need to be very careful not to jump to conclusions regarding the research.
Scientific research tends to offer fragmented views, since things in academia have gotten so specific and specialized.
So we can't tear the conclusion of one study, or even multiple ones, out of context and say, X is good for Y, and that's that, because in the total picture there will be so many other influences and factors we may not even be aware of, yet. Also, Lowenfels explicitly relativates the research even more by sharing how lab results and field results can be worlds apart, and what they find happening in the lab doesn't replicate in the wild and vie versa.
RIU is full of partial wisdom like that, someone who reads this or that piece of research and then propagates the results as THE final truth about life, the universe and everything
So let's not do that with the mycos, but stay aware of that we are on the cutting edge here and don't really know shit about anything ahaha

So, all that said, taking the frequency with which fungi are found to be helpful (just from what Lowenfels shares of the research to date), regarding the endomycorrhiza. (I haven't looked more specifically at the ecto's, as I hardly have any plants at the mo that would use them).

I'd look out for a mix containing (in order of "importance" by ubiquity):

• Rhizophagus intraradices (formerly Glomus intraradices)
  
• Funneliformis mosseae (formerly Glomus mosseae)
• Rhizophagus fasciculatus
  
• Glomus aggregatum
  
• Claroideoglomus etunicatum (formerly Glomus etunicatum)
  
• Rhizophagus clarus (formerly Glomus clarum)
  
• Gigaspora margarita (formerly Glomus margarita)
  
• Glomus deserticola
• Funneliformis monosporus (formerly Glomus monosporum)

And get a mix, don't go for single species.

If there are trichoderma in it (there are both harzianum and koningii in the glückpilze-mix) - all the better.
We were scratching our heads over this somewhere on the forums a while back. In Teaming with fungi, Lowenfels dedicates a side box to them and ends the discussion for now: seems the current bottom line is: they're great to have.