defoliation? yes/no and techniques

HeartlandHank · Sep 20, 2013

jacksthc said:
pictures say 1000 words and they don't lie, its the only way, anyone can show there results on here, take pictures off the site and its all talk.

I grow plants and take lots of pictures and keep the best, I have got about 5'000 pictures over the the last 5 years and every time I grow a plant, I look throw my last grow and find ways to improve it
keep records on temps, ph, amount of nutes used at different times in the grow, I spend a lot of hours a weeks working out ways to improve my yield, but I am sure you know best

go on show use some of your top yielding plants, if you have got any

Imo, pics tell about 1/5 of the story.
And yes, I believe that on your quest for yield, you took a wrong turn somewhere. Jmo.. who care what I think if you are blwing up the scale? But, I bet you're not..

I'll spare you "years" count and pic # count. I have experience. I don't really care if I have cred or not with RIU members. And, your five years and 5000 pics don't mean a damn thing to me. Congrats though..

Top yielder would be this one. I wouldn't call it top quality though.
It's a cool pic, but, it doesn't answer any questions about defoliating.. neither do any other pics on here, imo.

Then there are these. ..
https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/590609-ssh1-x-ssh2-beanho-heartlandhank-3.html
Dr Greenthumb - Bubba OG
https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/588938-g13-dr-greenthumb-grow-heartlandhank.html
https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/588955-6-sannies-killing-fields-f3.html
https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/590612-northern-lights-peakseedsbc-heartlandhank-grow.html

genuity · Sep 20, 2013

what happen to the under growth? about time I see some pics.

HeartlandHank · Sep 20, 2013

genuity said:
what happen to the under growth? about time I see some pics.

I pinch out growth sites on the lower end of the plant. It brings a more consistent product in the end. I get larger buds, in smaller quantity.. rather than many many smaller buds, OR, a mix... same weight either way, ime. Maybe a little heavier when getting fewer larger buds... I do this with all plants. I actually leave the leaf attached to the stalk and it falls off on its own after the stretch.

This was another plant from that pack.. better quality, lower yield. 4 plants per 600hps coco drain to waste. nothing fancy. Low maintenance.

My Green Crack produces real well too. About 15% more than this G13 plant.

jacksthc · Sep 21, 2013

HeartlandHank said:
Imo, pics tell about 1/5 of the story.
And yes, I believe that on your quest for yield, you took a wrong turn somewhere. Jmo.. who care what I think if you are blwing up the scale? But, I bet you're not..

I'll spare you "years" count and pic # count. I have experience. I don't really care if I have cred or not with RIU members. And, your five years and 5000 pics don't mean a damn thing to me. Congrats though..

Top yielder would be this one. I wouldn't call it top quality though.
It's a cool pic, but, it doesn't answer any questions about defoliating.. neither do any other pics on here, imo.

Then there are these. ..
https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/590609-ssh1-x-ssh2-beanho-heartlandhank-3.html
Dr Greenthumb - Bubba OG
https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/588938-g13-dr-greenthumb-grow-heartlandhank.html
https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/588955-6-sannies-killing-fields-f3.html
https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/590612-northern-lights-peakseedsbc-heartlandhank-grow.html

View attachment 2829735

thank you HLH, top job
and its makes consider your views a lot more.

but I must say your plants have less fan leaves in flower than mine do :confused:

imo this looks like a well defoliation plant, where the fan leaves ?

"pinch out growth sites on the lower end of the plant"

you defoliation the lower part of the plant just like me in late veg/early flower

how about showing me a plant full of fan leaves before removing at harvest and after

as the hole disagreement is a plants full of fan leaves yield less than a plant will with a few fan leaves as it stop direct light to the bud sites and reduces air flow, all your picture has done is prove my point

Uncle Ben · Sep 21, 2013

HeartlandHank said:
I have to say.. I keep seeing people/hearing people use defoliation for improved air circulation......

.......I have to say.. that seems like a terrible way to address air circulation. Put your engineer cap on and make some air movement happen. I politely suggest the possibility that your PM problems are you, not knowing what you're doing.

I'd venture to say that the defoliation excuse "because I have PM problems" is nothing more than a coverup for their screwups. Said it before, many of these guys couldn't keep a leaf green until harvest if their life depended on it. And if you can't control PM, you need to stop trying (growing).

Great points given in those recent threads. Good on ya!

Uncle Ben · Sep 21, 2013

jacksthc said:
.....how about showing me a plant full of fan leaves before removing at harvest and after....

.....as it stop direct light to the bud sites and reduces air flow, all your picture has done is prove my point

As I've stated every which way but Sunday in all the Defoliation threads, cannabis does NOT require intense light to the lowering flowering sites to produce well at that position on the plant. That is another misguided, non factual paradigm that is parroted with every new crop of newbs. THINK!

1. A fan leaf contributes to the entire plant, all plant tissue above and below ground, and it doesn't matter where it's located. If the leaf is not productive it will be dropped due to a CO2 flag mechanism,

2. There is no credible green tissue located at the flowering sites aka bud sites except for the small fan leaves and a few single bladed leaves interspersed here and there. The calyxes just don't have the mass nor exposure to collect photons, the reason why God made large, extended, fan leaves in the first place,

3. I can spot a young, ignorant starter every time when they constantly try to make the argument of "defoliation gets more light to the bud sites" as if any carbohydrates produced there, stay there, directed solely at that spot.

Now, some of you will never get what I've been trying to convey because you don't want to hear it....... but popcorn buds are a result of the growth pattern and chronological age of cannabis, which also includes the impact of natural hormonal responses, apical dominance. I get popcorn buds on outdoor grown plants, it is what it is. Any plant material whether it be cannabis, a peach tree, a pecan, a rose.... is going to give the goodies up first to the newest growth and many times at the lowest plant tissues' expense. Good example (I see around here) is the prevalent N deficiency I see with lower leaves prematurely going yellow and eventually being dropped thanks to that CO2 flag - the lower leaves are giving up, translocating its N to the upper parts of the plant. If you don't have chlorophyll production and maintenance then the leaf will drop.

I've posted this plant/garden dozens of times before and other photos in the defoliation threads and it still makes my case. These plants are crammed into a garden in which the over head HID's can not possibly provide "decent" lower canopy lighting but I still retain those lower leaves 90% of the time until harvest....mainly because I got off the bloom food teat a long time ago and learned my lesson. Also, you've got to agree that the lower flowering sites on these 2 examples are pretty fat and happy.

If you want something off the lower popcorn buds do what I do and do a double harvest. You must have lower leaves left to pull it off though.

Look at the bottom of this large plant. There is very little light getting thru the canopy.

Having said that, and like HH said, the problem lies with you, not some junk science you want to hide behind to cover up your short comings.

Uncle Ben

beuffer420 · Sep 21, 2013

Gotta agree with ^^^^^^. Leave your leafs on your plant they are there to catch light! I never really post in bens threads but I always read up on them in the mornings. This is good info to say the least.

ace hole · Sep 21, 2013

I'm 60 and trying to learn how to operate a computer I know nothing about searches. Its too bad that there are people out there who aren't willing to help someone like me. Peace be with you.

chuck estevez · Sep 21, 2013

ace hole said:
I'm 60 and trying to learn how to operate a computer I know nothing about searches. Its too bad that there are people out there who aren't willing to help someone like me. Peace be with you.

Nice try.

genuity · Sep 21, 2013

how many times are you gonna show them same old pics?......."double harvest"...much more time will be saved if you just remove a few fan leaves,and let light get down low right?that way one can chop at one time.

jacksthc · Sep 21, 2013

genuity said:
how many times are you gonna show them same old pics?......."double harvest"...much more time will be saved if you just remove a few fan leaves,and let light get down low right?that way one can chop at one time.

Yeh lol double havest, give lower buds direct light

Give it up ub

Pop The Trunk · Sep 21, 2013

ace hole said:
I'm 60 and trying to learn how to operate a computer I know nothing about searches. Its too bad that there are people out there who aren't willing to help someone like me. Peace be with you.

BS a 3 year old knows how to use google, with that said im sure a man with 60 years life experience can type in google.com

haulinbass · Sep 21, 2013

I think some of us, myself included get a little worked up about argueing without realizing sometimes we are agreeing. My ,ethod is allot like hanks, and i run a high N plant food through flower like ben. Ive never had issues with pm as my humidity is around 20-40% but if my foliage is too dense i will get water sitting on leaves in the am. also having more than five stakes in a plant to hold up pisses me off as it gets difficult to get at anything, as do hanging branches.
Not every plant is the same, if were growing a plant we have never grown and automaticly top it or lollipop it because thats what we always do theres a good chance we could be wrong. If we just let it do its thing and just watch what it drops naturally that will tell us if we need to do anything.
To me i use what i call defoliation to control my plants size and Get the type of buds i like. im sure i would get better total weight keeping fluff but when i end up making it to that part of the plant in trim i dont want to spend the time to do it and usually just throw in in the hash bucket anyways.

HeartlandHank · Sep 21, 2013

jacksthc said:
thank you HLH, top job
and its makes consider your views a lot more.

but I must say your plants have less fan leaves in flower than mine do

imo this looks like a well defoliation plant, where the fan leaves ?

"pinch out growth sites on the lower end of the plant"

you defoliation the lower part of the plant just like me in late veg/early flower

how about showing me a plant full of fan leaves before removing at harvest and after

as the hole disagreement is a plants full of fan leaves yield less than a plant will with a few fan leaves as it stop direct light to the bud sites and reduces air flow, all your picture has done is prove my point

The number of leaves on the plant is a genetic thing, mostly, imo.. I didn't take off any leaves.
I did not defoliate the lower end.. i pinched out growth sites.. Leaving the leaf attached. Those leaves fell off the plant around wk 5 if i remember right.
That's not defolliating.. Not sure how it proves your point.

If it works for you, do it. But, you could increase airflow with fans, ducting and a solid plan.
As for the light reaching the buds thing... All I know is that I don't have to remove leaves to get buds down low..
But, I have my own technique for that. I've done the 2nd harvest before... I like it, it works well. But, I clean that growth out early in flower anyway and just get bigger buds up top.

What I never do, is remove a fan leaf... because... they drive growth and bud production.

HeartlandHank · Sep 21, 2013

jacksthc said:
thank you HLH, top job
and its makes consider your views a lot more.

but I must say your plants have less fan leaves in flower than mine do

imo this looks like a well defoliation plant, where the fan leaves ?

"pinch out growth sites on the lower end of the plant"

you defoliation the lower part of the plant just like me in late veg/early flower

how about showing me a plant full of fan leaves before removing at harvest and after

as the hole disagreement is a plants full of fan leaves yield less than a plant will with a few fan leaves as it stop direct light to the bud sites and reduces air flow, all your picture has done is prove my point

Like this? I just harvested this one yesterday. Bubba OG - Dr Greenthumb.

Excuse the health of the plant... I had 8 unique plants all growing under 1200 watts. Rather than feed the individuals, I find a middle ground for all of them. When I select one of these as a mother, then I will work on nailing her nutrient needs.

These are not production plants.. they do not make a good plant to judge my style upon. But, I posted them because they had what you wanted.. leaves removed at harvest.

HeartlandHank · Sep 21, 2013

Uncle Ben said:
::snipped::

1. A fan leaf contributes to the entire plant, all plant tissue above and below ground, and it doesn't matter where it's located. If the leaf is not productive it will be dropped due to a CO2 flag mechanism,

::snipped::

I agree, this is why I go to the trouble of leaving the fan leaf behind when I pinch growth out that I do not want for garden shape reasons... These leaves help the plant through its life. When the plant is done, it drops them. Then I pick them up so they do not fall to the coco and encourage fungal growth..

... that brings up another cause of fungal problems... cleanliness, or lack of.

HeartlandHank · Sep 21, 2013

The bottom line... leaves drive growth and flower production, no?

The problems people solve with defoliating have other, less harmful solutions, no?

That's all I'm saying... If you choose to solve your problem with defol, cool. But, you're solving the problem at the expense of the plant, imo.
If you are finding that growth/yield is NOT harmed, then ok... But, realize that what looks like A + B = C to you could actually be more complicated.
Air, nutrients, light, water, genetics.... everything goes back to those. Make sure they are adequate, at least.

Dboi87 · Sep 21, 2013

^^^^ boom!

jacksthc · Sep 21, 2013

HeartlandHank said:
The number of leaves on the plant is a genetic thing, mostly, imo.. I didn't take off any leaves.
I did not defoliate the lower end.. i pinched out growth sites.. Leaving the leaf attached. Those leaves fell off the plant around wk 5 if i remember right.
That's not defolliating.. Not sure how it proves your point.

If it works for you, do it. But, you could increase airflow with fans, ducting and a solid plan.
As for the light reaching the buds thing... All I know is that I don't have to remove leaves to get buds down low..
But, I have my own technique for that. I've done the 2nd harvest before... I like it, it works well. But, I clean that growth out early in flower anyway and just get bigger buds up top.

What I never do, is remove a fan leaf... because... they drive growth and bud production.

ok you pinched out the lower growth sites and I do agree its a genetic thing no question about that imo
some plants just don't grow many fan leaves, just like that plant with the bottle of wine in fount you showed us.
low amount of fan leaves, very high yielding plant and with this plant I would not remove a single fan leaves, as plants do need some healthy leaves to grow

but most the bud sites covered by fan leaves tend to be a more airy low quality bud so its all about know what plants need defoliation and what leaves need to be removed

just like some plants grow really bushy and don't need topping, just a bit of lst training will give the results you want

HeartlandHank · Sep 21, 2013

jacksthc said:
ok you pinched out the lower growth sites and I do agree its a genetic thing no question about that imo
some plants just don't grow many fan leaves, just like that plant with the bottle of wine in fount you showed us.
low amount of fan leaves, very high yielding plant and with this plant I would not remove a single fan leaves, as plants do need some healthy leaves to grow

but most the bud sites covered by fan leaves tend to be a more airy low quality bud so its all about know what plants need defoliation and what leaves need to be removed

just like some plants grow really bushy and don't need topping, just a bit of lst training will give the results you want

Well, I have only selected branchy productive sprawling plants for some time now. So, I'm not real experienced with short bushy super leafy plants at this time... So, I won't tell you I know better on how to grow them. Cause I've sort of avoided them for a while.

I see the short and bushy thing as a bad trait for indoor/wet, personally. If I grew one indoor I would plan for extra air movement, air circulation and uber cleanliness.

I wouldn't combat these traits and environmental issues with defol, because, every leaf I pull off leaves an open wound to invite in PM, pythium, etc.. and, it does not address the real issue. Inadequate air flow, for the variety you chose to grow.
That said, I would improve my air exchange/circulation and/or choose a variety that is less needy.

defoliation? yes/no and techniques

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