DIY LED grow lights experiences

Very nice surfer^^^ what diodes and ratio are you officially using in your DIY panel???total wattage?? tried to go back and read but it's not that obvious, or I'm just stupid

temperatures are a bit low in the grow tent, 19-20°C, I'm sure the plant could react better to the light with 24-25°C, it is better for CO2 assimilation.

The grapegod seams to be leafier, may be because of the quantity of blue wavelength, but she is a bit more resinous as under hps and the smell is more intense, THC will probably be higher too because of royal the blue.

green surfer said:

UP, 41 days of 12/12

View attachment 2598832View attachment 2598834View attachment 2598835View attachment 2598836

Click to expand...

For 40 days those flowers are way are under developed. They won't fill in like they should. I had the same thing happen with some Sour D that I grew under a blue heavy blue/red light spectrum. Everything looked great until about 40 days, right were you are at, I realized the spectrum was not right for flowering.

I would like it if you would do the same strain again, but under your original PWN2/630/660 3:1:3 or something similar to compare.

I have a 4K CMH over some AK47 that is way leafier and not as dense as the ones under the HPS. Same plant, but looks super leafy and very airy compared to HPS. All has to do with spectral balancing.

I'm glad you did this test because it verifies how important spectral balancing is for budding. I know I can't tell you what to do, but if you would be so kind to run the GG again under your white/red setup it would be super cool!

Thanks for all your hard work, I've learned a lot from your great grow journal expertise.

hey Fonz,

yes I totally agree with you, those flowers won't fill in like they should. And i had too the same issue with Sour Diesel! (riri's cut)

The surprising thing is that it seems to be related to strains. One friend is trying actually the same spectrum with C99 (female seeds) and the buds are compact and grow very very well, he is totally please with this spectrum. So it confirms what knna's said, some strains react well or not to led spectrums, blue amount and 660nm amount.

Buds are very leafy but the thing wich consoles me is that they are completely covered of resin, so my pollinator will like it and me too

The smell is more intense and fruitier as under HPS. With this amount of blue, the smoke should be more potent too.

I will try 3x XTE 3000K/1x 625/ 3x 660 next time, so less blue and a 625/660 ratio around 1:1.

hey,

time to harvest the GG, here at 52 days, i will cut her this evening, she is a bit leafy but according to the fact that there are 17 "one buds" and that they are totally coated with resin i'm pleased with this grow, and the harvest will be nice. My pollinator will love those sugary leaves.
She is fully ripe at 52 days, I could harvest her at 7 weeks. She took around 10days less than under HPS (from cuttings)






Here is a C99, at 46 days of 12/12 under the same spectrum, same led engines, only 2x 7 leds engines, total power 36W with leds, drivers and fans. The pots have a 10 inches diameter.
One 7 leds Ideal Spectrum LED engine per plant, so 14W of leds per plant. Spectrum 1 royal blue oslon ssl80 LD 2U / 2 cree XTE 3200K R2 / 2 red 625nm Oslon JS ssl80 / 2 Hyper red LH Oslon SSL80 2T



she is not as leafy as the GG. Only two things are different, the strains and the temperatures (17-19°C for the Grapegod, 20-22°C for the C99).

I will do a new grow with the new Ideal Spectrum LED (ISLED) 7 leds, 1 royal Blue 2U / 2 XTE 2900K R2 / 1 red 625 JS / 3 reds 660 3T, i'm sure it will be better, better hyper red bin, warmer white, and better 660/625 ratio.

I will do another test too with no royal blue engine, 3WW XTE 2900K/1 red 625/3 Hyper reds 660.

oops sorry, double post

I don't know where I've been but keep up the great work, my friend...

thanks bro

Well ,I've tested into vegging some white Russians and some "unknown" genes ...
Up to one week approx ...

I 've used a 8x WW ( LCW CQ7P.CC ) high cri 2700 K Oslons SSL 80 ( bins JTKP ) ( blue ~455 die + Green Phosphor ~ 550 nm +Red phosphor ~640 nm ) and
4x LH CP7P ( bin T3) SSL 80 .....Per mcpcb ( DIY custom made-with thermal copper pours ) ....

Fact is that I had them at ~350mA (all leds ) .....

Plants did grow fast ..Like in a "hurry " somewhat ...
Internodal stretching was evident ...
Main stems stretched quite a bit ...
Roots did go deep ,but did not form many lateral rooticles ...
Leaf formation was rather "sun adapted " ( small,thick & sparce leaves ) ...

So ...Most probably a "bud swelling " led choice ..
But regarding vegging ,it performs poorly ....


Low wls (UV-violet-blue ) excitate highest state of Ch ...
But the excess energy ,those photons are carrying ,is "lost " into heat ....
Those wls ,amongst other do heat up (the water ) plants from inside ....

( both in atom and molecule level of reactions ..
Excess photon is radiated as heat(longer wls ) and those same high energy photons do vibrate water molecules inside living cells ....
Producing heat ,again ..)


So ,to deal with the heat ( caused by uv/violet /blue light ) ,probably plants :

-Increase Surface of where water is stored ....
Leaf number and leaf surface increase ....

-Build lateral rooticles ,in topsoil ,where fresh ( colder ) water supply is available ...

-Plant stays compact and branch out more ...
Again for storing more water ...

But coming to flowering ...

Blue ..
Then is a matter of strict choice ..
Quality yield (more blue ) or Quantity yield (less blue ) ?

Now,I'll try a new "vegging-all around " spectrum ...

4x NW ( Oslons CC ) 4000 K
4x WW ( Oslons CC) 2700 K
4x Hyper reds ....

A bit more blue in that one ...


BTW ...
I really admire your work ...


Did that NW+Red spectrum worked for you ?
http://www.opengrow.com/topic/44537-50w-high-tech-diy-led-lamp-test/

Hey SDS,

For vegging, the spectrum I used with the GG was nice and worked fine.

Usually i'm using for veg: 1royal blue/1 coolwhite around 6000K (for CRI and blue)/3 red 625 or 660 (660 LH CP7P is better because more efficient and its efficiency decrease less with temperature than 625; and the 625 LR CP7P peak is narrower). 3 coolwhites/3 red 660 is fine too, but the coolwhites are a waste of energy for vegging, they are just fine for CRI. Blue/red works fine but i don't like a purplish spectrum, i can't see the green and the health of my plants.

I'm using this 1RB/1CW/3R spectrum for veg, seedlings and cuttings since 4 years and i will never change it, except for a grow with a versatile engine as this last one.

So yes, your 8WW/4LH was lacking of blue for veg.

• Low wls (UV-violet-blue ) excitate highest state of Ch ...
  But the excess energy ,those photons are carrying ,is "lost " into heat ....
  Those wls ,amongst other do heat up (the water ) plants from inside ....
  
  ( both in atom and molecule level of reactions ..
  Excess photon is radiated as heat(longer wls ) and those same high energy photons do vibrate water molecules inside living cells ....
  Producing heat ,again ..)
  
  
  So ,to deal with the heat ( caused by uv/violet /blue light ) ,probably plants :
  
  -Increase Surface of where water is stored ....
  Leaf number and leaf surface increase ....
  
  ​
  
  

Click to expand...

yes, it makes sence, the plants needs to cool her leaves, so she will increase perspiration with an higher leaf area.

Just a thing:

• -Build lateral rooticles ,in topsoil ,where fresh ( colder ) water supply is available ...​
  
  

Click to expand...

imao, colder water is in bottom, not in top soil.

• -Plant stays compact and branch out more ...
  Again for storing more water ...
  ​
  
  

Click to expand...

not storing more water imao, but increasing perspiration to cool her leaves.

This is a fact that the blue/red ratio influence the stretching or the branching, or the rooting.

The literature shows that red light can stimulate rooting. The amount of blue light is also affecting the shape of the plant. Too little blue light gives more stretching and larger, thinner leaves. Many plants require a minimum amount of blue light for normal development. Extra blue light can be given as well. This has a positive effect on branching and results in smaller, thicker leaves. Blue light also stimulates evapotranspiration. Plants do seem to require a combination of red and blue light for proper growth and development.

Click to expand...

MJ grown outside is often leafier than indoor MJ and bud quality is better. There is often a debate about the lightings MH against HPS. Even about blue enhanced HPS vs straight HPS.

• 4x NW ( Oslons CC ) 4000 K
  4x WW ( Oslons CC) 2700 K
  4x Hyper reds ....
  ​
  
  

Click to expand...

for sure it will work great for veg too. Oslon CC is an high IRC led, 95CRI, that means very high cyan/green/yellow in the spectrum. The 2700K KR is 89lm @25°C @350mA, the 4000K KT is 104lm @25°C @350mA, certainly the spectrum will be very vast, but a lot of energy will go to cyan/green/yellow photons, and those wavelength are only useful for our plants when the light intensity is very high (as for HPS), because at high intensity the photons can cross the leaf and be used. So at present i think that if we use high green/yellow light, it must be with very efficient emitters (HPS has high yellow content in spectrum and plants use it for flowering, HPS 600W is around 160lm/W). And personally i think that OSLON CC has not enough efficiency. The spectrum I'm trying to build is blue (but it must be measured well), yellow/amber/red/hyper red and a hint of deep red and far red (so I need absolutely Warmwhite).

I had very good results with the 3NW4000K rebel ES/4reds spectrum, and 3x4500K/4reds, the plants were not especially leafy but yield could be improved i think. The think i don't like (maybe i'm wrong) is that in neutral white there is a lot of green. I tried two lamps with 3NW/4R, both had lenses (55° and 62°), so intensity of light was very high. I had apical chlorosis at 18cm from light! I used very high efficiency neutral whites, around 140lm @350mA 25°C.

Veg and bloom phase have a diffrent photoperiod, 18/6 and 12/12, so this is logical to have two spaces, so logical to have 2 lamps. So i'm searching for a bloom spectrum working fine for all strains. At present, the example is the HPS, so i'm trying to reproduce HPS spectrum, with an high efficiency, without reflector losses, and add 660nm to it and maybe some royal blue, but how much 660 and how much 450 to make a light available for all strains?

It seems that sativas loves a bit of blue and that indicas don't like it (it's logical because of the natural sun light is different under the tropics and under northern latitudes. But we mostly grow hybrids!

I will always prefer efficiency VS spectrum anyway, but when we see the reactions of plants to blue light in bloom phase, spectrum seems to be important too.

One last thing about blue:

because i'm growing in a cool place, I used more blue in spectrum to increase perspiration. Plant metabolism is related to perspiration. But it maybe it could be better to use infrared. Warmwhites will give some far red and infrared. I'm almost sure that the future of led lighting is very efficient warmwhite leds, with nothing else.

Anyway i will try a 3WW/1R/3HR spectrum, with very low blue, we will see. But unfortunately i didn't kept a GG mother.

I apologize for my english! it is hard for me, i can't say half the things i would like to say.

grtz

green surfer said:

Hey SDS,

For vegging, the spectrum I used with the GG was nice and worked fine.

Usually i'm using for veg: 1royal blue/1 coolwhite around 6000K (for CRI and blue)/3 red 625 or 660 (660 LH CP7P is better because more efficient and its efficiency decrease less with temperature than 625; and the 625 LR CP7P peak is narrower). 3 coolwhites/3 red 660 is fine too, but the coolwhites are a waste of energy for vegging, they are just fine for CRI. Blue/red works fine but i don't like a purplish spectrum, i can't see the green and the health of my plants.

I'm using this 1RB/1CW/3R spectrum for veg, seedlings and cuttings since 4 years and i will never change it, except for a grow with a versatile engine as this last one.

So yes, your 8WW/4LH was lacking of blue for veg.




yes, it makes sence, the plants needs to cool her leaves, so she will increase perspiration with an higher leaf area.

Just a thing:


imao, colder water is in bottom, not in top soil.



not storing more water imao, but increasing perspiration to cool her leaves.

This is a fact that the blue/red ratio influence the stretching or the branching, or the rooting.



MJ grown outside is often leafier than indoor MJ and bud quality is better. There is often a debate about the lightings MH against HPS. Even about blue enhanced HPS vs straight HPS.



for sure it will work great for veg too. Oslon CC is an high IRC led, 95CRI, that means very high cyan/green/yellow in the spectrum. The 2700K KR is 89lm @25°C @350mA, the 4000K KT is 104lm @25°C @350mA, certainly the spectrum will be very vast, but a lot of energy will go to cyan/green/yellow photons, and those wavelength are only useful for our plants when the light intensity is very high (as for HPS), because at high intensity the photons can cross the leaf and be used. So at present i think that if we use high green/yellow light, it must be with very efficient emitters (HPS has high yellow content in spectrum and plants use it for flowering, HPS 600W is around 160lm/W). And personally i think that OSLON CC has not enough efficiency. The spectrum I'm trying to build is blue (but it must be measured well), yellow/amber/red/hyper red and a hint of deep red and far red (so I need absolutely Warmwhite).

I had very good results with the 3NW4000K rebel ES/4reds spectrum, and 3x4500K/4reds, the plants were not especially leafy but yield could be improved i think. The think i don't like (maybe i'm wrong) is that in neutral white there is a lot of green. I tried two lamps with 3NW/4R, both had lenses (55° and 62°), so intensity of light was very high. I had apical chlorosis at 18cm from light! I used very high efficiency neutral whites, around 140lm @350mA 25°C.

Veg and bloom phase have a diffrent photoperiod, 18/6 and 12/12, so this is logical to have two spaces, so logical to have 2 lamps. So i'm searching for a bloom spectrum working fine for all strains. At present, the example is the HPS, so i'm trying to reproduce HPS spectrum, with an high efficiency, without reflector losses, and add 660nm to it and maybe some royal blue, but how much 660 and how much 450 to make a light available for all strains?

It seems that sativas loves a bit of blue and that indicas don't like it (it's logical because of the natural sun light is different under the tropics and under northern latitudes. But we mostly grow hybrids!

I will always prefer efficiency VS spectrum anyway, but when we see the reactions of plants to blue light in bloom phase, spectrum seems to be important too.

One last thing about blue:

because i'm growing in a cool place, I used more blue in spectrum to increase perspiration. Plant metabolism is related to perspiration. But it maybe it could be better to use infrared. Warmwhites will give some far red and infrared. I'm almost sure that the future of led lighting is very efficient warmwhite leds, with nothing else.

Anyway i will try a 3WW/1R/3HR spectrum, with very low blue, we will see. But unfortunately i didn't kept a GG mother.

I apologize for my english! it is hard for me, i can't say half the things i would like to say.

grtz

Click to expand...

Your English is fine, friend... I look forward to your continued tinkering, it is enlightening as it is entertaining. Seeing as how I wanted to run a spectrum similar to yours (1nw4000k/2rebelES HRed/10ww2200k (XTE) per module), my interest is invested!

BTW, have you tried only WW? only NW?

In most parts you find me ,agreeing all along ...
Just a note though....

"Oslon CC is an high IRC led, 95CRI, that means very high cyan/green/yellow in the spectrum. The 2700K KR is 89lm @25°C @350mA, the 4000K KT is 104lm @25°C @350mA, certainly the spectrum will be very vast, but a lot of energy will go to cyan/green/yellow photons, and those wavelength are only useful for our plants when the light intensity is very high (as for HPS), because at high intensity the photons can cross the leaf and be used."

Actually,yes it goes like this ....But still even in lower intensities ,all photons in range ~350~750 nm are utilised by plants ....Higher intensities offer "the green window " for lower parts of plants to "flourish " ...


"So at present i think that if we use high green/yellow light, it must be with very efficient emitters (HPS has high yellow content in spectrum and plants use it for flowering, HPS 600W is around 160lm/W). And personally i think that OSLON CC has not enough efficiency."


Well ...Now here things are more complicated than that .....

In fact Oslons ( the Warm White ones ),are more efficient than the average HPS ....

Let me explain ....
It is wrong (totally wrong ! ) to use the " lumens " unit ,so to calculate efficiency ....
Once again ,this is a photometric unit ,totally irrelevant and " alien " for controlled environment horticulture ..

This unit is directly related to human vision sensitivity/perception of "brightness" and of course spectrum of light ....

Human eye perceives 1000mW ( radiometric power ) of green light at ~555 nm ,as 683 lumens .


Now ...If a white phosphor led ( a warm white one ,for example ) does not have a lot of Cyan/green/yellow wls in it ..
And emits a bit of light over the 700 nm mark (invisible to us ...) ....
..Of course it is going to be of i.e . ......89lm @25°C @350mA....

But that doesn't mean the led is not efficient ....

In fact ,radiometrically ( Watts ) it might be more efficient than a hps of 160lm / Watt ....
( HPS has lots of green / yellow wls ....So it appears much "brighter " light to human vision ....)
But hps for every electrical Watt ,only ~ 30% is turned into light power ...( ~ 300m W ) ....

Unfortunately ,is not easy to obtain accurate radiometric output values for white leds ....
They are made to serve human vision ,so usual efficiency unit used, is lm/Watt ...

But for horticultural purposes,simply , it does not mean absolutely $hit !
....

So ,taking into account :
-Today's specialised phosphors for leds ,with high convesion efficiency ( >95% )
-Thin film led dies/chips
-High efficiency Chip Level Conversion ..

Then ,one can assume ,that if an average blue die of 500mW output ( 50% radiometric efficiency ) ,
is used to make a Warm white Oslon ....
And pretty roughly , the losses from phosphor conversion are about ~20 % .....
Then radiometric output power of a WW oslon should be around ~400 mW .....
That is 40% efficiency ....
A whopping 10% more than average HPS ....

So at 89 lm /Watt ,an Oslon WW led ,is 10% more efficient at producing light ,than the average HPS of 160 lm /Watt ...

And no ....
High CRI WW ,seriously ,do not have great amounts of Cyan & Green..
Mainly reds at ~620 ~ 640 nm .....

nm Rel.Power multiplier

600.0000 0.7662
603.0000 0.7954
606.0000 0.8251
609.0000 0.8545
612.0000 0.8829
615.0000 0.9093
618.0000 0.9335
621.0000 0.9547
624.0000 0.9731
627.0000 0.9870
630.0000 0.9966
633.0000* 1.0000 *(peak of WW 2700 K )
636.0000 0.9984
639.0000 0.9907
642.0000 0.9783
645.0000 0.9607
648.0000 0.9394
651.0000 0.9142
654.0000 0.8864
657.0000 0.8555
660.0000 0.8225
663.0000 0.7871
666.0000 0.7503
669.0000 0.7124
672.0000 0.6742
675.0000 0.6359

Click to expand...

Neutral whites of high CRI ( ColorChamp ) ,yes ,they do have higher amounts of Cyan/Green...


...Lumens ,are not a unit ,to judge ,a led's efficiency ,for growing ....
By far ,the wrong unit .....

Neither it can be used to "compare" even of same temperature leds ..

Slight differences at their spectrum ,can result in great differences at their lumen output ..

So in fact a i.e NW led #1 can be of 100 lm/Watt efficiency and another NW #2
( even of same Kelvin Temp ....) can be of 80 lm /Watt ...

And actually the latter ,to be more powerful than the first ..
....
In radiometric terms ....
(What is really important for us ,led growers ... )
As the first might have more rel. power in green wls and/or
the second might have a bit more reds or far reds in it's light ...

.....

Brother Guod ,has a nice design going on ....

Covering the Blue/Red photosynthesis " needs ",with high efficient blue/red leds ...
And at same time covering "auxiliary " pigment peaks -and creating white light at same time- by using
the complementary colors of Blue & Red ...
Amber & Cyan ,respectively ....

Keeping overall efficiency as high ,as possible ...

Click to expand...

Future ,seems really exciting ,for our led growing world ...

Keep up your great work ,brother ..
I'll be following all along ....

• Actually,yes it goes like this ....But still even in lower intensities ,all photons in range ~350~750 nm are utilised by plants ....Higher intensities offer "the green window " for lower parts of plants to "flourish " ...
  ​
  
  

Click to expand...

maybe, in this case knna was wrong. A few years ago, scientists said that green was not useful for plant. And after that they recognise that green was useful a high intensity. At low intensity, green was reflected by leaves (which are green).

• In fact Oslons ( the Warm White ones ),are more efficient than the average HPS ....​
  
  

Click to expand...

OK but the only data we have to deal with is lm. I totally agree and I know that lumens can only be used to compare two leds of same CCT. That's why I prefer my 2900K 131lm XTE VS the oslon CC 2700K 89lm.
That's why I prefer too a luxeon rebel ES 4000K 140lm or an XPG R4 vs a 4000K oslon CC (the PC POWER CHAMP has a better efficiency). But the oslon angle 80° is much better than 110 or 125° so maybe it will result the same efficiency for our plants.



Yes the warm white oslon has not a lot of green and cyan, the peak is around 630nm, yes, but there is green and yellow, a bit of cyan. Check this:


and here is a 5700K power champ



It is very interesting what you said SDS. So I had the idea to ask to two persons in know, one is optoelectronician, the other is from OSRAM discrete LEDs dpt. I asked for the efficiencies in % of the best WW and NW oslons SSL available at present, or for radiant power in mW. I hope they will answer, so we will know and we will compare with HPS efficiency.

-Knna WAS wrong ,yes !
Read Here : http://www.heliospectra.com/sites/www.heliospectra.com/files/field_page_attachments/what_light_do_plants_need_2012-10-05.pdf


BTW ,I've been supporting (and posting about ) most of those ,all along ...
For example :

.....There is very little absorbance of green light (500-600 nm) in extracted chlorophyll
molecules. However, as the integrity of the leaf increases we see more and more
absorption in the green region.
Therefore, plant leaves do absorb green light.
In this case, about 70%.....


As Knna was based ,on PS pigment's absorption/action spectra graphs/figures of extracted chlorophyll
( in solution) ....
And never accounted for Relative Quanta Efficiency of green light
(Which is higher than of blue light ..)

....Once and for all ...
There is not such a thing as "useless " light ,for plants ,in the region 350-750 nm ...

Not a single nanometer ...



- I seriously doubt that 2900K 131lm XTE is more efficient than the oslon CC 2700K 89lm.

...Lumens ,are not a unit ,to judge ,a led's efficiency ,for growing ....
By far ,the wrong unit .....

Neither it can be used to "compare" even of same temperature leds ..

Slight differences at their spectrum ,can result in great differences at their lumen output ..

Click to expand...

For our example .....

....
( Dotted line is human sensitivity ...
Peak at ~555 nm = appearing most "bright " wavewlength,for same power ,than any other .... )

1 ) See the yellow shaded part ....That is light power from Oslon ,that we are not able to see as "bright " ..

Over ~700 nm ,is invisible .....Again Oslons have more power at that range than XTEs .....
So...
Minus several lumens for Oslons ......
( ~10-15 lm per Watt ) comparing to XTE ,which has an Amber peak and not red ..
Amber is brighter than red ,to human vision ...More lumens for XTE .....


2) Note the orange shaded part ...
More power at XTE led ,at the range that our vision's light sensitivity starts to peak ....
Plus quite an amount of lumens for the XTE ( 10~20 lm .... )


3 ) .. Oslon WW has more cyan /blue than XTE ....
-blue shaded part -
Human vision has really low sensitivity at that range .....


So ,quality of light (spectrum ) of Oslon WW is by far superior than that of XTE ...

As for real output power ..(radiometric )

I bet you that, if the Oslons are not more powerful ( seriously : if ) ,
at least they have same radiometric efficiency with XTEs .....


So ....

Yrs STS, but apart from a spectrum that you account as better one, 131lm vs 89lm is a no brain for efficiency?
More lm's more photons more energy for the plant to utilise

I love osrams but if they don't make available those higher bins or release more efficient ones.. I am sadly doing without them! (Not all of them, sometimes they nearly match competitors for certain given diodes)

NO-NO-No ....

Lumens does not measure radiometric power ( Watts / umoles/sec ) or energy ( Joules / Kcal / BTUs / KWh /etc ) ...

You're far from truth ,believing so ....

Lumens is a really relative unit ...

It " measures " how bright a light appears to HUMANS .


And only that .


Nothin' else ...

A higher lumen led DOES NOT EMIT MORE ENERGY IN THE FORM OF LIGHT ,from another of less lumens ....

It means it has more power at green wls ...
Or generally more power at the region ,where human vision has most/peak sensitivity of "brightness " ....


1 Watt of light power (flux ) of monochromatic green light is ~ 680 lm ....
2 Watts ( 1+1 ) of Blue & red light ,both ,they merely reach at ~ 200 lm ...

Still the real light power ( energy if multiplied with time ... ) is double ,than of green light ..


Which green light will APPEAR to humans ~3x times brighter ,than both Blue& RED do.... ...

An extreme example using monochromatic lights ...
Green appears 3 times "stronger" light ...Truth is ,that has half the energy ,of Blue & Red ....(At the example )

Also sts, you can't compare them with that general graph from cree, those xte come in different tints.. There's a 2700 one too as there's a 10000k one for cool whites..

And the thing is, all of them are nor that super accurate unfortunately!

Til some instruments or clearer graphs (rebels have more individual graphs actually, but again, how accurate they are?), I'll always go with the most efficient. Efficient= more (power) photons x less (power) watts

Radiometric figures are much more accurate yes, but we'll have to do with lm's for when are not available?

Do you know also that that is indicative anyway, do you have a spectroradiometer? That's the only way, coz sometimes they don't correspond (osrams are"quite" accurate as from what knna said when measuring them)

Anyway.. This is all good. Thanks to anyone contributing on this, sts and everybody.
Green surfer, great work with your experiments, I can't rep you as I have to spread it around first (bah)

high efficiency and high CRI is not possible with one led
therefore osram has 3 sorts of leds

LCW CR7P.xx

..CC= colorchamp 66 lm/W (white) at 4000 K Cri >90
..EC=economy champ 84 lm/W (white) at 4000 K Cri 80
..PC=power champ 96 lm/W (white) at 4500 K Cri 70

http://ledlight.osram-os.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/OSRAM-OS_WEBINAR_HighCRI_06-26-12.pdf

btw.
a hps has Cri of about 20