DIY LED grow lights experiences

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Also sts, you can't compare them with that general graph from cree, those xte come in different tints.. There's a 2700 one too as there's a 10000k one for cool whites..

And the thing is, all of them are nor that super accurate unfortunately!

Til some instruments or clearer graphs (rebels have more individual graphs actually, but again, how accurate they are?), I'll always go with the most efficient. Efficient= more (power) photons x less (power) watts

I'm comparing the Average 2600 bin graph (original from Cree )-red line- with the average Oslon 2700 bin graph (black line ) ....
Yes they are "average " calculations .....
But still very usable for comparison like that ....


Efficient= more (power) photons / less (power) watts

Yes,correct ..But , lumens have nothing to do with all that .....
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Radiometric figures are much more accurate yes, but we'll have to do with lm's for when are not available?

Do you know also that that is indicative anyway, do you have a spectroradiometer? That's the only way, coz sometimes they don't correspond (osrams are"quite" accurate as from what knna said when measuring them)
No ....They are accurate( without "more " ) for measuring radiometric power ,energy ,etc ....

Unfortunately ,lumens ,mean NOTHING ,AT ALL ,for horticultural purposes ... !
 

jubiare

Active Member
Yep, i went like: :o :o :o :o when yesterday I saw HPs being around 20 for CRI!
CRI is basically how much a given luminary resemble the one it wants to imitate/replicate

Osram did a line of diodes for horticultural, it'll be nice they work on a warm white eheheh
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
high photometric efficiency and high CRI is not possible with one led
therefore osram has 3 sorts of leds

LCW CR7P.xx

..CC= colorchamp 66 lm/W (white) at 4000 K Cri >90
..EC=economy champ 84 lm/W (white) at 4000 K Cri 80
..PC=power champ 96 lm/W (white) at 4500 K Cri 70

http://ledlight.osram-os.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/OSRAM-OS_WEBINAR_HighCRI_06-26-12.pdf

btw.
a hps has Cri of about 20
Oslons CC ,in fact are of highest radiometric efficiency and of highest CRI ,possible ...

.....German led technology ,is far ahead from rest of " competition" ...

And not easy to copy or beat ....
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Color Render Index ....
Simply ...
At what level color Hues appear closer to their "ideal standards " ..
I.e .
A red object should look red and not Amber or other hue ,when illuminated from a high CRI light source ...
 

jubiare

Active Member
Well SDS, I know they have nothing to do with growing how can I argue with that:D

But all the news and cree and articles when they go like:
"Breaking news, cree releases a more efficient white (more lumens for the same watts)"
How can you argue with that too:D

They are more efficient..... No? :D
 

jubiare

Active Member
Are you saying that 89lms are more efficient than 131lms because the tech employed by osrams gives out more efficiency? :o :o
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
They are more efficient..... No?

Yes they are !

Photometrically-wise ,only !

Do not forget the small detail :

White leds are made for serving human illumination and not for growing plants ...

I.e as correctly Guod stated ....

You want bright light with leds ? (more lumens )
(/automobile/stadium/street /industry / etc )
You will "loose " on hue rendering ..
Colors will appear poorly in their hues ...


You want correct color reproduction/rendering ?
(photo studio /clothes shops/ jewelery stores / etc )
You will "loose " on " efficiency " ...
( photometric and not radiometric )
Not much of a"bright" light there ....


Actual photons (energy ) in both cases ,can be of same numbers ,just fine ...

 

jubiare

Active Member
You are prob talking about the more red (thus more efficient for your green girls) .. Well I don't know about that I suppose you are the mad scientist eheh (no offence, I am mad too)

But do your conclusions come from the graphs or they do actually employ e different tech for their WW?

green surfer, sorry I hope you don't mind I am typing mad on your board:/
 

jubiare

Active Member
Well if you think that you should go back to monochromatic til they work on specific white diodes for plants Ahahah:D
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Are you saying that 89lms are more efficient than 131lms because the tech employed by osrams gives out more efficiency? :o :o
Yes ,radiometric efficiency can be higher ,even if photometric efficiency is low ....

The example with the green & red/blue lights ...

If the green bulb wants 2 Watts of electrical power ,to emit 1 Watt of light ,
then it has 50% radiometric efficiency ......


Photometric efficiency = 680 lm / 2 Watts = 340 lm / Watt


Same Radiometric efficiencies for Blue & red bulbs ....
For 1 Watt of light they need 2 Watts of electricity ,each respectively ...

Photometric efficiency of both Blue/red = 200 lm / 4 Watts ( 2 x2 Watt each at plug ) = 50 lm /Watt ..


But all have same radiometric efficiency=50%

So,yes ,I'm saying this exact thing ...
And it is not weird at all ....
Simple physics ....


As for Osram leds ....

Well ..Osram has " shaken the waters of led tech" ,plenty of times ...
(Thin Film Tech ,Double phosphor mix ,Chip Level Conversion,etc )
 

guod

Well-Known Member
lumen vs radiometric flux

There are two parallel systems of quantities known as photometric(lumen) and radiometric quantities. Every quantity in one system has an analogous quantity in the other system.
In photometric quantities every wavelength is weighted according to how sensitive the human eye is to it, while radiometric quantities use unweighted absolute power.
from wikipedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photometry_(optics)

so,if you know the spectrum you can switch between the two systems.

the numbers to do this can be found here.
believe me, you will have a nice calculation:lol:
http://farbe.wisotop.de/photopicLuminousEfficiencyFunction.shtml
 

jubiare

Active Member
So more lm is more lm.... Whether you convert them or not... Right?

Now, that's more efficient Ahahah or not :D
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
I 'll give you an example .....

If a led has lots of reds and not much of green/blue ,it will appear to human vision as a dim "warm white " light source ....
Led #1 will have radiometric flux of i.e. 450 mWatt and photometric power at ~80 lm .....

Another led has lots of green and low red/Blue .....
It will appear to human vision as a really bright light source ,of "daylight white " hue ...("Neutral white ",but rather greenish,in fact ... )
Led #2 has a radiometric flux of 250 mW and photometric power of 140 lm ..


Which one serves best for my mountain downhill bike and which one for my grow-room ?
 

jubiare

Active Member
Mmmmmmmmmmm...... So what determines that oslons have that particular characteristic even given it's high CRI
 

green surfer

Well-Known Member
wow! i'm totally overwhelmed with what you are saying SDS, and i won't pretend you are wrong.

Experience will talk, I planed to build a new engine right now! with OSLON CC ww :lol:

So let's summarize what is important for a flowering MJ led lamp:

- efficiency, i mean % or mW/W of power consumption (so I wait for OSRAM's answer about this point, if they tell me that it's under 30% for a 89lm LCW CQ7P CC 2700K i stop the experience :-)) I hope that you are right SDS when you announce 40%, if you are i right then kiss-ass (virtually) :mrgreen:

- spectrum, not too much blue to avoid leafy buds, so mostly Warmwhite

- MJ loves red, and HPS results a showing that a 2000K spectrum works so the best recipe could be WW+660nm?


Jubiare, i agree with you, the same thoughts are disturbing me. We will see, let's build another prototype!


Another thing i would say, is that photons are not carrying the same energy, it's is related to the wavelengths.

For vegging, we all know that blue/red works, NASA discovered that a finely tuned spectrum could save energy. What should it be different for blooming?
For sure a full spectrum high CRI high efficiency spectrum works (as the sun light), but the game is to save energy. So full spectrum high CRI very efficient leds yes, but finely tuned spectrum could save more energy IMAO. Blue chips and hyper red chips have 50% efficiency or more, so they are interesting to use VS white chips.

Another thing to take in account is thermal properties of the emitters, angle, how the efficiency will decrease with current, how it will decrease with temperature...
I prefer to use an emitter at higher current than 350mA, the cost of the lamp will be lower and penetration higher, but yes efficiency will decrease.
OSLON CC WW is 170% flux at 700mA. XTE goes to 175%, ok almost the same. Thermal resistance is 5°C/W for XTE, 10°C/W for LCW CQ7P CC.
I will try to ask to Cree how is the XTE efficiency in mW.
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
So what determines that oslons have that particular characteristic even given it's high CRI

I'll tell you what ...
Ironically ,I'm going to use lumens ....

For a led like Oslon 2700 K ( Having that spectral graph-much red -and that high CRI ) ,to emit ~80 lumens is EPIC .....

It really means that it's radiometric output flux is way high !
( I estimate it around 360-460 mW ... )
 
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