Do you believe in God?

Do you believe in God?

  • Yes

    Votes: 71 34.6%

  • No

    Votes: 122 59.5%

  • Maybe

    Votes: 12 5.9%
  • Total voters
    205
Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
jonsnow399 said:
Ok, tell us the origin of the universe using strictly logic. or with philosophy.
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I don't know the origin of the universe because I used logic. To humans, today, using logic is not enough to solve the question of the origin of the universe. That doesn't mean in the future it won't be.
 
jonsnow399

jonsnow399

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
I don't know the origin of the universe because I used logic. To humans, today, using logic is not enough to solve the question of the origin of the universe. That doesn't mean in the future it won't be.[/QUOTE
William Lane Craig has already solved it using logic and philosophy.
  1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause;
  2. The universe began to exist;
    Therefore:
  3. The universe has a cause.
From the conclusion of the initial syllogism, he appends a further premise and conclusion based upon ontological analysis of the properties of the cause:[4]

  1. The universe has a cause;
  2. If the universe has a cause, then an uncaused, personal Creator of the universe exists who sans the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless and enormously powerful;
    Therefore:
  3. An uncaused, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless and enormously powerful.
Referring to the implications of Classical Theism that follow from this argument, Craig writes:

"... transcending the entire universe there exists a cause which brought the universe into being ex nihilo ... our whole universe was caused to exist by something beyond it and greater than it. For it is no secret that one of the most important conceptions of what theists mean by 'God' is Creator of heaven and earth."[5]
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Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Science is a process. Logic is part of the structure of that process, but I would say logic falls in the necessary but not sufficient category. The problem with logic is that it works on a garbage-in garbage-out rule. Part of science is making sure what you put in isn't garbage. One can be perfectly logical while still falling for confirmation bias, frequency illusion, cherry picking, ect. Science also needs critical thinking, experimental controls, quantification of unknowns, transparency, and other various quality controls that make up the philosophy of science. But logic and philosophy, on their own, are not science. Science involves posing questions to nature and generating data to work with. Science is a thing you do, it requires action.
 
jonsnow399

jonsnow399

Well-Known Member
Heisenberg said:
Science is a process. Logic is part of the structure of that process, but I would say logic falls in the necessary but not sufficient category. The problem with logic is that it works on a garbage-in garbage-out rule. Part of science is making sure what you put in isn't garbage. One can be perfectly logical while still falling for confirmation bias, frequency illusion, cherry picking, ect. Science also needs critical thinking, experimental controls, quantification of unknowns, transparency, and other various quality controls that make up the philosophy of science. But logic and philosophy, on their own, are not science. Science involves posing questions to nature and generating data to work with. Science is a thing you do, it requires action.
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Yeh, the main problem with Craig's argument is that we don't know for sure if the universe had a beginning.
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
jonsnow399 said:
Yeh, the main problem with Craig's argument is that we don't know for sure if the universe had a beginning.
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Right, hes taking a rule imposed onto reality by the universe and applying it to the universe itself without justification. But even if the universe did have a beginning, or, as they say, something came from nothing, that still doesn't explain why his logic wouldn't apply to the proposed creator. If something can't come from nothing, where did the creator come from? Even if we give him the benefit of credulity, his logic still defeats itself.
 
eye exaggerate

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
GreenLogician said:
Alright, you'll need to be much more careful in the future to distinguish real science from religious apologetics.
The term 'first cause' is from religious apologetics, not big bang science.
Aquinas claimed without reasoning and evidence that an infinite past is logically absurd, so insisted a first cause must be posited. This has never been scientifically supported. Big bang science does not include a first cause, as far as we know things keep going back beyond the big bang.
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The first cause - prime mover - unmoved mover reference was in regard to proper scientists who cared to pursue it. It's back there in the 130 iq / No God convo.

I'm not an apologist, sorry.
 
GreenLogician

GreenLogician

Well-Known Member
mahiluana

mahiluana

Well-Known Member
Heisenberg said:
where did the creator come from?
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GOD = EVOLUTION (and everthing and everybody is a part of it)

if there is no evolution @ all ---> there is NO CREATOR @ all

evolution = ability to reproduce + variation + selection

Charles Darwin spelled this formula 300 years ago, and told us, that life and creation
is a long, wet and never ending chain.

Nobody and nothing can escape from this "game" called evolution - we are all inside - if we want or not.
It seems to be a universal rule, that even a stone or any other material can`t hide away -
not our spirit - nor the beauty and the uggly, that we create with this spirit.

Aristoteles said it much earlier, when he tried to give another brilliant definition of "GOD"

"THE UNMOVED MOVER" - was even a shorter concept of the same universal rule.

if @ any time we need a new religion!

*** I recommend "ART" as the new religion ***

so please be creator !!! "everybody is an artist"

As an artist you can learn to celebrate :

- your abilities to reproduce your soul or any other concept of any other artist
- your virtuosity
- trying to select by your own choise

this can put you in a real position of a god or a king --->

What if you find out your purpose in life is - to be part of "GOD" and his creation with your own little kingdom ?

- meaningless only the size of your castle
- because you are able to travel through time and space
- ! and state of mind !

I found it`s a relativ exciting journey to ride on a comet through the univers...
... and find my way as a "legal son of GOD " ... trying to maintain this wet chain and protect it against any "mother-earth-fuckers" crossing my trajectory.
 
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