DWC Root Slime Cure aka How to Breed Beneficial Microbes

MediMary said:

Hey heisenberg my man, didnt get a chance to go to that tea brewing thing, still got your questions written down, next I go they will be on my list of questions.
Dude I see people giving you props on all kinds of sites, its pretty cool man, remember awhile back when I hit you up about folks over on the farm, I was at
http://www.420magazine.com/forums/j...ercurrent-dwc-grow-journal-7.html#post1236240
guy gives you a big shout out!!WOOT WOOT!!

you da man homie, hey man If you got a second maybe you can log in over at the farm and look at something for me, http://www.thcfarmer.com/forums/f158/roots-excel-29212/index2.html#post559847
I had some RE issues with this odd slime stuff wondering if it looks like what you were talking about

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My 'after-slime' was much darker than that, but It looks similar in that it covers some roots while others, especially newer shoots, remain white. True slime doesn't discriminate. Interesting that we both saw it after using RE.

Well in my reading i came across that roots excelurator is a anaerobic beneficial bacteria, which I thought was rather interesting...



http://www.house-garden.us/products/additives/roots-excelurator/
Justin September 11, 2010 at 3:15 pm

Ive read and have had people inquire about using roots excelurator within an aerated reservoir.

Is there a reason why it is recommended that you not use this in a highly oxygenated environment? Does the high oxygen amount react with this?

Reply

brad September 16, 2010 at 9:33 pm

We recommend using a small circulating pump instead of an aerator. The highly aerobic environment does affect some very important bacteria in Roots Excelurator that thrive in an anaerobic environment. The main difference will simply be a reduced population of those bacteria in an aerobic environment vs. anaerobic.

Reply

Reuben September 23, 2010 at 2:10 am

I forgot to ask. I’m concerned about how long the bacteria will stay alive in the bottle.
There is no information about this at all anywhere.
It is very important.
I’m assuming smaller dosages will still populate a reservoir with bacteria.
I would prefer to only use it to inoculate rooted cuttings and small vegetating plants than dosing my flowering reservoirs. To save on using it up too quickly.

Reply

brad September 30, 2010 at 6:15 pm

The bacteria is in stasis in concentrated form in the bottle. Once water is added, the bacteria reanimate. They will stay alive as long as there is food and ample surface area on roots and medium to populate. In an ideal environment, yes, they do reproduce on their own.




Have you ever played with bokashi at all buddy?

Awesome stuff - thanks for the info. Cleared my root slime right up. Scribed + rep.

what would you recommend if i can not get a hold of the Ancient Forest as a substitution...seems like no one carries it in my city.

ottermunky said:

This is a really interesting thread. I use FloraNova in my res atm and it seems fine to me- I'm very happy with the results but it does niggle at me that they are not organic. They DO do an organic line but I haven't really seen any reviews.

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Considering that you are happy with the results, why does it bother you that the nutes are synthetic rather than organic? While both methods fit different situations and provide somewhat different results, it's not accurate to see one as inferior to the other. People have many reasons for using organics, but be careful not to believe the marketing propaganda. It can be difficult to sift through what's accurate and what's hype. Truth is, all fertilizer enters the roots in chemical form, so if a product is being sold on the premise of 'chemical free' growing, it's pure lies.

From Skeptoid:

Scientifically, the term "organic food" is meaningless. It's like saying a "human person". All food is organic. All plants and animals are organic. Traditionally, an organic compound is one produced by life processes; chemically, it's any carbon-containing molecule with a carbon-hydrogen bond. Plastic and coal are organic, a diamond is not. So when we refer to organic food in such a way to exclude similar foods that are just as organic chemically, we're outside of any meaningful scientific use of the word, and are using it as a marketing label.

I want to stress that I am not opposed to organic food. It is generally a perfectly fine product. I do have objections to the way it's marketed: It's an identical product, sold at a premium, justified by baseless alarmism about standard food. Whether you agree or not that this alarmism is baseless, you should at least agree that that would be an unethical way to promote a product that offers no real benefit. I choose not to reward this with my food-buying dollar. People who willfully seek out the organic label when buying food are being taken advantage of by marketers employing unethical tactics.

The biggest misconception is that organic farming does not use fertilizer, herbicides, or pesticides. Of course it does. Fertilizer is essentially chemical nutrient, and the organic version delivers exactly the same chemical load as the synthetic. It has to, otherwise it wouldn't function. All plant fertilizers, organic and synthetic, consist of the same three elements: nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium. Referring to one as a "chemical" and implying that the other is not, is the worst kind of duplicity, and no intelligent person should tolerate it.

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Check out these articles to explore the subject further
Organic food myths
Organic vs Conventional

medicine21 said:

Awesome thread! I am sold on using bennies in hydro, but my rez is 70gallons. According to the formula, I need to brew and add 4.4gallons every 3 days. This is quite a bit of work when trying to automate the setup.

What are some thoughts on running (and adding back) Aquashield in the rez and using Mykos drops in the net pots? Would that have the essentials covered?

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If you are not fighting slime you can scale back to 2-3 cups per 10 gal, and get away with adding the tea once a week, perhaps longer. The myco drops seem to be lacking in trichoderma fungi, which again is okay if you are only trying to prevent disease and not fight it.

MediMary said:

Well in my reading i came across that roots excelurator is a anaerobic beneficial bacteria, which I thought was rather interesting...

http://www.house-garden.us/products/additives/roots-excelurator/
Justin September 11, 2010 at 3:15 pm

Ive read and have had people inquire about using roots excelurator within an aerated reservoir.

Is there a reason why it is recommended that you not use this in a highly oxygenated environment? Does the high oxygen amount react with this?

Reply

brad September 16, 2010 at 9:33 pm

We recommend using a small circulating pump instead of an aerator. The highly aerobic environment does affect some very important bacteria in Roots Excelurator that thrive in an anaerobic environment. The main difference will simply be a reduced population of those bacteria in an aerobic environment vs. anaerobic.

Reply

Reuben September 23, 2010 at 2:10 am

I forgot to ask. I’m concerned about how long the bacteria will stay alive in the bottle.
There is no information about this at all anywhere.
It is very important.
I’m assuming smaller dosages will still populate a reservoir with bacteria.
I would prefer to only use it to inoculate rooted cuttings and small vegetating plants than dosing my flowering reservoirs. To save on using it up too quickly.

Reply

brad September 30, 2010 at 6:15 pm

The bacteria is in stasis in concentrated form in the bottle. Once water is added, the bacteria reanimate. They will stay alive as long as there is food and ample surface area on roots and medium to populate. In an ideal environment, yes, they do reproduce on their own.
Have you ever played with bokashi at all buddy?

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Very interesting, thanks for sharing. So it seems we are reducing the effectiveness of RE by using it in the tea, although it does seem to add a boost.

I have never explored bokashi, which (for those who don't know) is the concept of composting organic material, such as kitchen scraps, with the use of only beneficial anaerobic bacteria. Definately something I would try if I had an outside garden.

EmeraldBuddah said:

what would you recommend if i can not get a hold of the Ancient Forest as a substitution...seems like no one carries it in my city.

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Any EWC will add a great boost. Products which combine forest humus and EWC offer the best diversity.

Its interesting the organic debate, it rages on with so many different angles. Its nice to know that I am doing good by my plants, the thing I was bothered about was in the consumption stage but as I do a fairly long flush I doubt any elements are left and if organic are absorbed as chemicals anyway the same traces would be there in the end anyhow. sorted! This has been a subject of minor debate with my partner and now can be resolved! thanks for the patience with my silly question!

Dr. Heisenberg,
I read that you no longer use a sock for your Ancient Forest. Are you still using several handfuls? Could you please post a pic of what the paper towel with Ancient forest looks like? I'm just not 100% clear on the method of folding and containing the Ancient Forest.
Thank you!

neobes said:

Dr. Heisenberg,
I read that you no longer use a sock for your Ancient Forest. Are you still using several handfuls? Could you please post a pic of what the paper towel with Ancient forest looks like? I'm just not 100% clear on the method of folding and containing the Ancient Forest.
Thank you!

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Good idea Neobes....

Sir Heis, if you do go to the trouble of taking pics and posting them, would you mind taking a few more por favor...just of the entire brewing process at different stages? My thoughts are that newb growers could really benefit from this and even veterans alike. Sometimes unsaid things get brought to attention with pictures that we don't always think about....

'

ottermunky said:

Its interesting the organic debate, it rages on with so many different angles. Its nice to know that I am doing good by my plants, the thing I was bothered about was in the consumption stage but as I do a fairly long flush I doubt any elements are left and if organic are absorbed as chemicals anyway the same traces would be there in the end anyhow. sorted! This has been a subject of minor debate with my partner and now can be resolved! thanks for the patience with my silly question!

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Indeed there are many aspects to consider, and we can best consider them if we don't fall victim to marketing hype. Organics have their place and deserve respect, but truth is for almost every goal an indoor grower sets, hydro is superior. Flushing itself is a topic of much debate. Organic produce is not flushed. In terms of safety, we have no plausible reason to think that harmful chemicals are left behind, and can be cleared out with a flush. Some growers claim you are hurting your final yield and potency by depriving the plant of nutrients it expects to be available, even when ripening. Remember some nutrients are mobile within the plant, and some are not. The plant will never get the immobile nutrients it needs when forming buds if they do not come from the roots. At the same time, we can expect the the chlorophyll content of the final bud will be less with a flush, which can reduce curing time and improve taste. Having said all that, I personally still do a 7 day flush because I am cheap and like to save on nutrients. Dutch Master recommends a very low PPM for the final week, and they have done a lot of testing specifically with cannabis so there is some support for flushing. It all comes down to personal choice.

neobes said:

Dr. Heisenberg,
I read that you no longer use a sock for your Ancient Forest. Are you still using several handfuls? Could you please post a pic of what the paper towel with Ancient forest looks like? I'm just not 100% clear on the method of folding and containing the Ancient Forest.
Thank you!

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Actually I recently started using just one large handful of AF and throwing it directly into the brew. It seems any sort of filter can stop fungi from coming through, and the debris gives the bennies a home/breeding ground. As I described before, my tea containers have a built in spout, so I just use a small tea strainer to filter out the big stuff each time I pour some tea. Small stuff gets through but doesn't seem to pose any problem as far as root health. If you use a paper towel it can really be folded any way that doesn't let material get through.

I am having to shut my garden down for a while but eventually I will get some pics of the entire process. I also plan to do some experimenting and figure out the best use of the tea. I particularly want to know the least/weakest amount of tea that can be used and still prevent disease.

Heisengenius, I've heard you say not to add Azamax to a reservoir with bennies. I emailed General Hydroponics because I had root aphids and wanted to use Azamax in my reservoir with a systemic application. The email and the response were short....

Hello GH,

I have a question regarding the use of two or three of your products
in conjunction with each other. If I use Azamax, will that kill the
Mycorhizae and/or Microbes in in the Subculture B & M?


Thanks for your help!

And their response...

Hello XXXXXXXXXX,

The Azamax will not harm the SubCulture and it is fine to use in conjunction with one another.

Best,
Matthew DXXXXXX

So my first instinct is to question them because its in their benefit to tell me it works fine. But, both products are obviously GH....so, its viable from a business perspective that the products would be capable of working in conjunction. But that logic is dangerous and not always true.

Heis, please, what are your thoughts? If you have questions that I should ask GH, I'd be glad to email them back and then post the results. I just don't know enough to know what to ask, so I'm asking you for advice. I'm looking at using Azamax as a preventative measure, because I've had root aphids on healthy plants using the tea.

I certainly believe a flush is a good thing, I may be insane but there is a flavour difference, it seems a lot less harsh when I flush. Also those who say no nutes is bad for the plant in the last week seem to forget that the leaves are there to help the buds to absorb nutes and as you say it reduces chlorophyll in the harvested product. My last grow has had a week and a half curing and is more than good to go now! Its a really clean smoke that have smoothed out so much in the last week and I can't wait to see what it will be like in another week! My flush was I think only 4 days. I cant remember now, if you feel like it check out badgerbadger' s grow in my sig- thats got all the info! Thanks for your attention

Dipsomaniac420 said:

Heisengenius, I've heard you say not to add Azamax to a reservoir with bennies. I emailed General Hydroponics because I had root aphids and wanted to use Azamax in my reservoir with a systemic application. The email and the response were short....

Hello GH,

I have a question regarding the use of two or three of your products
in conjunction with each other. If I use Azamax, will that kill the
Mycorhizae and/or Microbes in in the Subculture B & M?


Thanks for your help!

And their response...

Hello XXXXXXXXXX,

The Azamax will not harm the SubCulture and it is fine to use in conjunction with one another.

Best,
Matthew DXXXXXX

So my first instinct is to question them because its in their benefit to tell me it works fine. But, both products are obviously GH....so, its viable from a business perspective that the products would be capable of working in conjunction. But that logic is dangerous and not always true.

Heis, please, what are your thoughts? If you have questions that I should ask GH, I'd be glad to email them back and then post the results. I just don't know enough to know what to ask, so I'm asking you for advice. I'm looking at using Azamax as a preventative measure, because I've had root aphids on healthy plants using the tea.

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Azamax states that it kills nematodes, which is why I cautioned against it. It also states that it's a derivative of neem. I have known neem to kill off microbe populations to the point of allowing the slime to return when it was allowed to drip into the res from a foliar spray. However, if GH states that it does not effect myco microbes then I do not doubt them. If you use it, you are likely to have a less diverse microbe population, but if you have no current slime problem it will probably be fine. I personally would try out Botaniguard, which has a specific fungus that aggressively targets soft body insects like root aphids.

The insect disease caused by the fungus is called white muscardine disease. When the microscopic spores of the fungus come into contact with the body of an insect host, they germinate, penetrate the cuticle, and grow inside, killing the insect within a matter of days. Afterwards, a white mold emerges from the cadaver and produces new spores.

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Being a fungus it should work along side the tea nicely. A quick look at some reviews claim it to be very safe for plants and also very effective. Check out this link for pics of infected insects, pretty freaky.

so it's been 5 days since i added a healthy dose of beneficial tea to a couple of bubble buckets. brewed up great white and tarantula for 48 hours prior to dosing. roots look white, but there's a THICK, white, snot-like mucus on the roots. i mean a lot! is this normal? greenery up top still looks solid...

I've stated before, AN microbe products aggravate slime in a DWC. They shouldn't but they do. Return your tarantula and get your money back. Complain to the seller and the manufacturer. I can't speak for the nutes, but when it comes to microbe products AN is pure crap.

You probably need to flush the roots really well and make a proper batch of tea. Anytime a thick mucus covers the roots it isn't natural.

Greetings Heisenberg !

I want to truly thank you for sharing your insight and knowledge on the "Slime" and dwc in general. I've been growing for several years now. Due to my lifestyle a soil grow just wasn't feasible. My "Slime" story is not unlike many in this thread. The slime would come and go. The mortality on my plants was over 70%. I too had spent a small fortune on disinfecting products. My local grow store assured me, and most articles I'd read came to the same conclusion: algae. Thus the remainder of my finances were spent purchasing all recommended resolutions. SM 90, H2O2, Silica, Fox Farm ferts, Botanicare ferts, and then taking into account all of the different seeds which have died, etc.... ad nauseum. Why would anyone do this to themselves ??????
Now with the liberal application of the tea my plants look healthy again, my interest in growing has renewed energy and commitment.
I too am using Dutch Master Gold Nutes (A&B + Add27). I am at week 3 in a flower cycle. 600w HPS. You previously mentioned that you use the Liquid Light product; What are your thoughts on adding LL at this point ?
257BudHunter

PS: THANKS AGAIN !

Greetings Heisenberg!

First off I would like to thank you for being the one to share these amazing pieces of knowledge with me, it has helped immensely!
I know you said you currently have limited internet access, but whenever you get the time I have a few more tea questions:

1) I just received some Mycogrow to try for the first time instead of the Zho/Aquashield. What sort of application rate do you use with the Mycogrow for a 2 gallon brew?

2) Is it possible to use too much tea? I have been using 2-3 times the normal 1 cup/gal to try and fight off bad disease. Want to make sure this isn’t actually hurting the situation. ..

3) Do you have any suggestions for using the tea in an ebb and flow system? I know you said to make sure there is an air stone in the main res. Would you suggest a different application rate or schedule?

4) And finally a question about how you know when the tea is done brewing. It seems that the speed of brewing varies greatly with the amount of air pumped through the brew and the temperature of the brew. Which leads me to question when is it at its prime condition? The smell seems to progress from sweet molasses, to dull and almost no smell, to kind of an earthy smell, and then kind of swampy. The appearance progresses from clear with a molasses color tint, to a cloudy mustard color, and after that it looks like some of the cultured coating of stuff that has formed on the sides of the bucket starts to come off in small chunks and float around in the water, then it starts turning browner from the mustard color. So… any suggestions or experiences on the best time to use it?

Thanks for all your help!
Nmed

Three Simple AACT Recipes (All for 5 Gallon (19L) brewers)
Bacterial Dominant Tea
1.5 pounds (700g) bacterial compost or vermicompost
3-4 tablespoons (45-60ml) liquid black strap molasses
4 teaspoons (23g) dry soluble kelp or 2 tablespoons of liquid kelp
3-4 teaspoons (15-20ml) fish emulsion

Equal Ratio – Fungi : Bacteria Tea
1.5 pounds (700g) 1:1 fungi to bacteria compost
3-4 tablespoons (45-60ml) humic acids
4 teaspoons (23g) dry soluble kelp or 2 tablespoons of liquid kelp
3-4 teaspoons (15-20ml) fish hydrolysate

Fungal Dominant Tea
2 pounds (900g) fungal compost
3-4 tablespoons (50ml) humic acids
2 teaspoons (10ml) yucca extract
4 teaspoons (23g) dry soluble kelp or 2 tablespoons of liquid kelp
4-5 teaspoons (20-25ml) fish hydrolysate

Recipes from ‘The Compost Tea Brewing Manual’, 5th Edition by Dr Elaine Ingham.

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Heisenberg, thanks for the great article.

Mind if I ask your opinion on the recipe above? It's from a current magazine article.

NaturesMed said:

Greetings Heisenberg!

First off I would like to thank you for being the one to share these amazing pieces of knowledge with me, it has helped immensely!
I know you said you currently have limited internet access, but whenever you get the time I have a few more tea questions:

1) I just received some Mycogrow to try for the first time instead of the Zho/Aquashield. What sort of application rate do you use with the Mycogrow for a 2 gallon brew?

2) Is it possible to use too much tea? I have been using 2-3 times the normal 1 cup/gal to try and fight off bad disease. Want to make sure this isn’t actually hurting the situation. ..

3) Do you have any suggestions for using the tea in an ebb and flow system? I know you said to make sure there is an air stone in the main res. Would you suggest a different application rate or schedule?

4) And finally a question about how you know when the tea is done brewing. It seems that the speed of brewing varies greatly with the amount of air pumped through the brew and the temperature of the brew. Which leads me to question when is it at its prime condition? The smell seems to progress from sweet molasses, to dull and almost no smell, to kind of an earthy smell, and then kind of swampy. The appearance progresses from clear with a molasses color tint, to a cloudy mustard color, and after that it looks like some of the cultured coating of stuff that has formed on the sides of the bucket starts to come off in small chunks and float around in the water, then it starts turning browner from the mustard color. So… any suggestions or experiences on the best time to use it?

Thanks for all your help!
Nmed

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Hi NaturesMed,

To help alleviate Heisenberg and his intermittent internet from answering all these questions flowing in, perhaps I can assist you with a few notes. In terms of using the tea in an ebb/flow system, you should apply the tea at the same rate as for DWC -- the initial batch, followed by top-ups after every 3 days. You want it constantly refreshed because the live bacteria is what gives you the diversity you need to fight the bad stuff. Now, you may not need AS MUCH as you would for DWC, and of course it also depends on if you are fighting any kind of disease currently. I believe Heisenberg has specified on pages past a different ratio to use for ebb/flow. Not certain on that. If you are adding 2-3 times the amount of tea, I'm not sure if that is helping/hurting your efforts, but keep in the back of your mind that it is diluting your nutes that much more.

About the brewing process. When the tea is done and in prime condition, it smells like fresh moist dirt thats just been dug up from the ground (at least if you are using the Ancient Forest as your main culture source).

Hope this helps. Sorry I wasn't able to answer all your questions. Cheers!

Mr. Bond

Hi Heisenberg,

I don't mean to put a burden on you with more questions, but I don't recall you discussing this in the past. I'm about to switch to flower, and I'm looking for a little advice on nute usage. I'm planning on using AN Connoisseur A&B nutes for flower, but I'd also like to use Botanicare Sweet (Raw) if possible. I hear it helps with the transition to flower, reduces stretching during early flowering, and also helps provide flavor and scent enhancement for the buds. I'm also going to be supplementing with Snow Storm Ultra.

I believe my slime has subsided for now. I do still have the dark brown residue or dead slime or whatever it is in the roots that aren't newly grown. I have tried to stay current on keeping the EWC tea topped-up as needed. Last update you told me to hold off on the Sweet for now. It wasn't really necessary during veg anyway, but flowering is just around the corner. My questions are:

- If I add the Sweet during the transition/flowering phase, will the slime explode back into the rez from its dark brown residue/dead slime?

- With the tea in use, if I add Sweet directly to the rez like my other nutes, will it promote excessive microbe growth? Or will it foster in the return of the slime? I know it has been discussed not to try and breed the tea directly in the rez. But the tea will already have been bred seperately, and added into this 'Sweet'ened rez.

- If I use the Sweet as the sugar base for the tea instead of molasses, will the Sweet still be useful to the plant when I add it in as part of the tea? Or will the microbes/bennies eat all the sugar before it gets in the rez?

- Finally, would you recommend I use the Snow Storm as a foliar, or as a nute supplement in the rez? Is doing both overkill?

Let me know when you can. I understand you don't have the best net connection right now. I think I speak for everyone here when I tell you how much I appreciate your time and patience in sharing your wealth of knowledge. Perhaps one day I can buy you a beer? lol

Mr. Bond

Heisenberg I have a question about your foliar spray. Do you use the tea when you run saturator + liquid light? What else do you use in your foliar spray? any nutrients? thanks for all this great info.