First indoor grow - delicious seeds selection
- Thread starter olafthegreen
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olafthegreen
Well-Known Member
Thanks!
H.A.F.
Well-Known Member
Looks great!
Here's my $0.02 in on the co2 for a home grower. co2 is definitely beneficial - that is fact. How fast does your exhaust fan run?
I looked into it, and the commercial growers that use it have tanks, regulators and monitors in hermetically controlled environments to maintain a certain level of co2. The sheer volume of co2 I would need to show a noticeable difference in the atmosphere would be ginormous. Here's what I found.
So IMHO, it's snake oil unless you invest in the complete package. The little "co2 boosters" add co2. So would vinegar dripping into baking soda... but neither will make a difference if you have an exhaust fan properly doing it's job.
Here's my $0.02 in on the co2 for a home grower. co2 is definitely beneficial - that is fact. How fast does your exhaust fan run?
I looked into it, and the commercial growers that use it have tanks, regulators and monitors in hermetically controlled environments to maintain a certain level of co2. The sheer volume of co2 I would need to show a noticeable difference in the atmosphere would be ginormous. Here's what I found.
- I have a 200cuft space. I have a 350cfm exhaust (not at full speed, but still probably 200cfm) exchanging all the air in my closet every minute.
- co2 aids in photosynthesis - pointless in the dark.
So IMHO, it's snake oil unless you invest in the complete package. The little "co2 boosters" add co2. So would vinegar dripping into baking soda... but neither will make a difference if you have an exhaust fan properly doing it's job.
olafthegreen
Well-Known Member
My extraction fan shifts 284 m3/hr
My tent is 1.2m x 1.2m x 2m = 2.88m3
So extraction is 284/2.88 = 98.6 times / hour or once every 1m 38 seconds, although I imagine in reality some of the air stays in there a lot longer, depending on air flow and vortex inside the tent. So doing anything to the air inside the tent - as you say - is pretty pointless!
My only option with this setup is to really add the CO2 to outside the tent and have it drawn in.
I suspect a better option is to decrease the heat with a couple of big QB leds (although the heat would probably be beneficial then if i was using LED) and stop the exhaust running all the time.
A job for future grows methinks!
H.A.F.
Well-Known Member
All valid, except do you really want to shut off the exhaust? QB's will give you fatter buds if that is what you are hunting. invest in that instead of co2
OldMedUser
Well-Known Member
About the best time to get benefit from added CO2 for us casual home growers is during the stretch. The plants are eating more than at any other time and the potential for big gains is then.
When I flip to flower I'll set my temp and humidity controller up. I usually run at 75F but I'll let it go to 90 and burn my lamp full time. They need lots of extra light to make use of the extra gas as well so for those with just enough light to get a decent grow CO2 probably won't make a huge difference but I put my best Hortilux 1000W on them and they got plenty of light.
By the end of week 3 stretch has slowed right down or stopped so I'll go back to 75 and this round I'll change light to a 1000W Light EnerG bulb and save the Hort for the next stretch. That bulb cost me $170 and I'd gotten a deal. I've seen them at $299 retail so I want many good grows out of it yet. The other one was $50.
Bottom left is a 400W conversion bulb to get MH light from an HPS ballast. Big one in the middle is also a conversion bulb, Big HortZ lol, that gives HPS light from an MH ballast and the one on the right is an older bulb that I thought had died so it's been sitting in a box for about 16 years. I was going to toss it but decided to test fire it and it works fine. It's also a conversion bulb for HPS light off MH.
Got a deal on that goofy Gavita bulb top center. Has a built in reflector so you don't need a hood for it. Used it for a week or so once. Then a 400 Hot Super HPS on the right and the 400 SolarMax SHPS for backup.
Couple of cheapo PlantMax bulbs for emergency backup and the two Light EnerG that have a very similar spectrum to a regular Hort SHPS but are half the price. Two different hydro store owners have told me they sell a lot of them to big growers and they like them.
Pretty sure the coil is shot on my 1000W MH. Got a new capacitor for it but it's only putting out 158Vac and it's supposed to be 425-455 so it won't fire up a light. Don't need it right now so it can wait. New cap in the 1000w MH/HPS and it's working fine.
At least I can fix these magnetic ballasts. If they were digitals I'd be hooped.
OldMedUser
Well-Known Member
As long as the plants are exposed to extra CO2 most of the time they definitely grow faster so if it's not costing much it's worth doing especially during the stretch. I grow in a very cool basement and in the winter with only a couple 400s going the fan may not kick in all day. It's on a temp/rh and speed controller so if neither the temp or rh get high enough the fan is off and the plants would use up all the CO2 in no time with no fresh air coming in.
I have a CO2 controller that lets me know the CO2 levels so I can tell when to snuff out the lamp but with the little one I can just leave it going all day and it only burns about 150ml of methyl hydrate and the ppm goes over 1500 in about 15 min. after lighting it. I've tried it with just a candle and that does almost as good.
olafthegreen
Well-Known Member
Wow, just wow, you have so many bulb and light options!
From what I read MH is best for veg as it produces bushier stockier plants, or does this just depend on the spectrum that you buy?
I recon that in winter using a lamp is an option for me, it's hot in the summer here, but cold in the winter, we cannot store items that will freeze in the garage normally, so extra heat and CO2 would be a benefit as the exhausts wont be running all the time. Gives me time to get setup too. I've got 850W of lights in my 1.2m square x 2m tent, currently a 600 and 250 HPS, is that going to be sufficient to make a difference?
This is my 100th message so I better include a shot from today.
-edit it's not my 100th message any more as a post was deleted from the greenpoint thread after I quoted some troll.
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SilentBob024
Well-Known Member
Yeah the fan was my concern as well for adding co2. They have a demonstration on YouTube for "the enhancer" and I assure you it gets well over 400ppm. But anyways, the owner chatted me up explaining how and when to use it. Aopaothe best thing to do for this product is to give it a shale once every morning and just shut off fans for 2-3 hours. Then turn it back on. The plants will make most use of the co2 when they "wake up" apparently. Don't know for sure if he's truely king bs lol or if he was being legit. I just know it seems to work here. Yeah I've heard about the vinegar drop system for co2. Lol I'd hate that smell though.
H.A.F.
Well-Known Member
Not wanting to hijack the thread, but looking at the flowers above, I think you would impress yourself with QB's. The short of it is that the light penetration is phenomenal, and it doesn't create much heat. I'd be interested in seeing a side-by-side grow of a plant with and without co2. I mean, "my plants got older and the buds got fatter" is pretty much how the plants work... Did the co2 actually do anything?
I guess my thing is that there are plenty of things during the grow you can do to boost production like pruning, LST, HST, or even adding the right nutes at the right time not based on some schedule but on what your plants are asking for. I just think the $$$ and effort spent elsewhere might be better spent.
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olafthegreen
Well-Known Member
Am I thinking that to emulate my 850W I'd need around 600W of QB? How does it work? Literally just buy the boards fit and fit them with an appropriate driver for the number of boards you have?
H.A.F.
Well-Known Member
If you go by what their "veg/flower footprint" chart says, it is pretty spot on. What it says it will comfortably flower - it will. I wouldn't stress as much over the wattage as what they recommend for your size space. I have been getting close to a gram/watt even on plants that had issues.
olafthegreen
Well-Known Member
Don't suppose you know where their chart is I had a quick search around but couldn't find it.
I'm already totally sold on LED, but I just need to find 500 notes to continue. I really suspect the heat from the HPS will be helpful in the winter, so I'd probably only get 1 grow from LED before March or 3 grows in the next 20 months.
I'm totally not in the loop about LED developments, but it strikes me that things are moving very quickly. So waiting for another 9 months before investing seems wise, what do you think?
H.A.F.
Well-Known Member
The HLG website has the best info, but lots of stuff out of stock.
You have to look at each light, I don't think they have a comparison chart for all lights. This one says it will flower a 3x3. I have it, and it will.
https://horticulturelightinggroup.com/collections/kits/products/260w-qb-v2-led-kit
I get my lights from Growers Lights - one of their dealers.
https://growerslights.com/collectio...-quantum-board-led-kit?variant=28611107848244
You have to look at each light, I don't think they have a comparison chart for all lights. This one says it will flower a 3x3. I have it, and it will.
https://horticulturelightinggroup.com/collections/kits/products/260w-qb-v2-led-kit
I get my lights from Growers Lights - one of their dealers.
https://growerslights.com/collectio...-quantum-board-led-kit?variant=28611107848244
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OldMedUser
Well-Known Member
Not all MH lights are created equal and they are best for veg. I can get a standard MH bulb like the ones used for stadium lighting for around $35 and plants will grow under them but not so great. An MH bulb made for growing plants has a better spectrum with more light frequencies that plants need to grow better. It's the mixture of gasses in the arc tube that determine what light is emitted. Same with HPS lights. Cheap street light bulbs can flower plants but not so well as one designed to supply the proper frequencies for plants.
Generally you want more blue light than red for veg and the reverse for flowering but you want some of both for all stages of growth. Other colours play a role as well.
I have the same kind of grow space issues tho it never can freeze in the basement as all the plumbing for our water is down there. It can get close to freezing tho when it's -35C outside for a while. We average around -20 for the whole winter. People keep harping on me to go spend lots of money getting LED lights to save energy but then my heater would be running with the lights on to keep the space warm enough so where's the savings?
If you are going to have your tent in that garage for the winter then you may want to insulate it a bit with blankets or something. Thrift stores usually have comforters or old sleeping bags cheap. With the lights you have then you would get it warm enough to cycle the fan if you have controllers on it like I do. Without controllers it'll be running all the time sucking in cold air and make it hard to keep the temp and RH up.
H.A.F.
Well-Known Member
I'm going to play QB salesman here.
They make awesome light without producing a lot of heat - and that heat is not blown around like blurples with cooling fans.
For air circulation, a USB driven oscillating fan on a phone-charger adapter is all you need - if you have a good exhaust.
Heat rises, the exhaust sucks the heat out. You adjust the exhaust, and you control the temp/rH, so in a basement you just save more $$ on electricity because you don't need the exhaust as high.
Most QB's have adjustable drivers to let you further control all that junk.
They make fat buds without a lot of $$ for electricity
They make awesome light without producing a lot of heat - and that heat is not blown around like blurples with cooling fans.
For air circulation, a USB driven oscillating fan on a phone-charger adapter is all you need - if you have a good exhaust.
Heat rises, the exhaust sucks the heat out. You adjust the exhaust, and you control the temp/rH, so in a basement you just save more $$ on electricity because you don't need the exhaust as high.
Most QB's have adjustable drivers to let you further control all that junk.
They make fat buds without a lot of $$ for electricity
OldMedUser
Well-Known Member
I have 16" and 12" oscillating fans going in my room so the temp is the same from the floor to the ceiling and should be like that in any grow space.
All the different advice I keep getting relates to that person's grow space which is not the same as my space so there is no one-size-fits-all solution to keeping the right environment in there. Most people have to deal with temps and RH being too high where my situation is the complete reverse. I've never needed AC as my basement never gets over 65F so there is a constant supply of cool, filtered air. The grow room only takes up about a 5th of the space in the basement and all my intake air is drawn from the larger area of the basement. Then I'm not getting hot air in the summer and icy cold air in the winter.
LEDs may be in my future but for now I'm quite happy with my HIDs.
All the different advice I keep getting relates to that person's grow space which is not the same as my space so there is no one-size-fits-all solution to keeping the right environment in there. Most people have to deal with temps and RH being too high where my situation is the complete reverse. I've never needed AC as my basement never gets over 65F so there is a constant supply of cool, filtered air. The grow room only takes up about a 5th of the space in the basement and all my intake air is drawn from the larger area of the basement. Then I'm not getting hot air in the summer and icy cold air in the winter.
LEDs may be in my future but for now I'm quite happy with my HIDs.
olafthegreen
Well-Known Member
You've been doing this a while eh? Some great knowledge here!
I'll check out a MH bulb for my ballast and see how much that works out for the next grow. Though from what you say it seems like I'd have to spend quite a lot to make that worthwhile.
Insulation is a great idea, I was thinking maybe something more substantial, like an extra box around the outside made from foam insulation of some sort. It's often -20C at night, cant imagine the garage offers much protection with it's uninsulated roof!
A quick calculation - for me LEDs would actually pay for themselves after 3-4 grows in spring / summer / autumn. Assuming I spend about 500 notes on getting them setup. It's food for thought. When I have the cash, I'll probably look into getting some.
H.A.F.
Well-Known Member
Not just LED (Blurple) but Quantum Boards. And all I am talking about for a basement grow is that since the hot air created by the lights is not agitated by fans on the lights, you get to do what you want with that heat. So for a basement/cooler environment outside the tent, you get to use a lower fan-speed on the exhaust because you need to remove less heat. This ain't rocket-thermo-dynamics, this is redneck stuffI have 16" and 12" oscillating fans going in my room so the temp is the same from the floor to the ceiling and should be like that in any grow space.
All the different advice I keep getting relates to that person's grow space which is not the same as my space so there is no one-size-fits-all solution to keeping the right environment in there. Most people have to deal with temps and RH being too high where my situation is the complete reverse. I've never needed AC as my basement never gets over 65F so there is a constant supply of cool, filtered air. The grow room only takes up about a 5th of the space in the basement and all my intake air is drawn from the larger area of the basement. Then I'm not getting hot air in the summer and icy cold air in the winter.
LEDs may be in my future but for now I'm quite happy with my HIDs.
olafthegreen
Well-Known Member
This makes total sense in the summer months. Winter, need to add heat in there and lots of it!
I'd be looking at QB or maybe to build some myself if I can get access to a workshop, don't worry not going blurple. I have a one here already which is just sitting around - although I'm tempted to swap the 250W for it but keep resisting.
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