Foxfarm or general organics?

Yes and no, depends on the product. Taking EJ or GO as an example; both still contain organic matter. Earth Juice contains a good deal of organic matter, it's quite raw.

Just like dry amendments, a portion of the nutrients are soluble and therefore potentially available right away. Other things in the bottle are feeding the microbes either directly (say if it actually contains sugar\carbs) or indirectly. E.g. microbes can use the sugars\carbs in the Bio-Thrive product, as well as the minerals it provides, and the result simply put will be more microbes to work on the organic matter already existing in the soil to provide or release more nutrients.

Honestly, I think some folks here underestimate just how much work goes into sourcing ingredients for and mixing a custom soil, and waiting a month for it to be perfect. It might be hard for some of you guys to believe, but other people have jobs, children, families, small living environments, physical handicaps, etc.

I mean talking shit about General Organics, for instance, because it is bottled and happens to be from a company that makes nutrients for hydroponics. If it's not your thing it's not your thing, but at least they do make use of industry by-products, like blackstrap and oyster shell, and use squid from areas of overpopulation.

Fish fertilizer is one the primary things I do use that actually comes from a bottle, and I don't think that facts negates the "organacity" of my growing endeavors.

Nullis said:

Yes and no, depends on the product. Taking EJ or GO as an example; both still contain organic matter. Earth Juice contains a good deal of organic matter, it's quite raw.

Just like dry amendments, a portion of the nutrients are soluble and therefore potentially available right away. Other things in the bottle are feeding the microbes either directly (say if it actually contains sugar\carbs) or indirectly. E.g. microbes can use the sugars\carbs in the Bio-Thrive product, as well as the minerals it provides, and the result simply put will be more microbes to work on the organic matter already existing in the soil to provide or release more nutrients.

Honestly, I think some folks here underestimate just how much work goes into sourcing ingredients for and mixing a custom soil, and waiting a month for it to be perfect. It might be hard for some of you guys to believe, but other people have jobs, children, families, small living environments, physical handicaps, etc.

I mean talking shit about General Organics, for instance, because it is bottled and happens to be from a company that makes nutrients for hydroponics. If it's not your thing it's not your thing, but at least they do make use of industry by-products, like blackstrap and oyster shell, and use squid from areas of overpopulation.

Fish fertilizer is one the primary things I do use that actually comes from a bottle, and I don't think that facts negates the "organacity" of my growing endeavors.

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I hear ya. My head was spinning the first batch of soil i put together. It can be a daunting task. Once you've done the work and know where to source everything you need it's pretty easy to replicate. I really like the idea of ammending x cubic feet of soil and then have the ability to re-use that soil for 3,4,5 runs. If I had to build a new soil from scratch each and every time I'm not sure I would have stuck with this.

Nullis said:

Well, are you a chemist? If not how would you know if they do or don't?
And, the GO "Kelp Extract" is actually... er... green.

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I had high school chemistry, does that count? I’ll use common sense and say many of the compounds we desire do not make it through the processing procedure here. But Please enlighten me, are we getting the same things from seaweed extract as we are kelp meal? Does that make me a snob?

Nullis said:

But anyways, I am familiar with the use of KOH to extract humic acids out of compost or lignite. These are used as solvents and may not actually be in the finished product. Know where Potassium hydroxide can come from? A mine. Just like rock dusts. The kelp I usually, use, though comes from a bag and is raw kelp. I just don't think I am the shit because I use the raw stuff that comes in bag, as opposed to the stuff that comes in a bottle.

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What? You don’t use the stuff in the bottle, isn’t that just as good?

Nullis said:

And I'll use whatever the fuck language I want, because I am tired of straw men and bullshit and pretentiousness and tin foil hats. Guess what every organic anything contains... CHEMICALS. SALTS. How the bitch do you think plants get nutrients? Organic stuff is just, like, magical? NO. MICROBES MAKE SALTS. Chemistry happens in organic soil, whether you like it or not.

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Very becoming, but does your mom know you use language like that? Guess what, you’re not a scientist, and even the smartest scientist doesn’t hold a candle to mother nature. So, I don’t have to know every little detail, thank goodness! I just have to start with a good humid source, good soil structure, a few basic amendments, and I’m good to go. It’s as simple or complicated as you want to make it.

Nullis said:

And the definition of 'organic' has nothing to do with "came out of a bottle or not" or "did you build that soil yourself?". For all I give a slut, it's about microbes and plants working together to MAKE SALTS AS THE PLANT NEEDS THEM. I wont deny that certain companies make bad products, over-priced products... we have capitalism to thank for that. So, again did you go down to the bog and get that sphagnum? Did you travel to Singapore to get your own Coco? Did you witness your compost go through the thermophilic phase?
Then shut the fuck up. Most companies that produce earthworm castings feed them almost exclusively cardboard. That is probably true, and it's also why I don't buy castings from Unco Industries, and it's also a straw man. In fact, I have a worm bin. But none of that matters, and none of that means that ALL commercially produced castings are bad.

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I have a better idea. Why don’t you learn to respect people a little more and take your poor attitude somewhere where people appreciate it. I don’t feed my worms cardboard. I’m still happy if people are using cardboard and making their own castings. People in the ROLS thread knew about UNCO corps a long time ago. And yeah, it DOES matter! Commercially produced means sitting in a bag. You telling me that’s the same as fresh castings?

Nullis said:

Hyroot can't even admit he's flat out wrong about the ODA database so I could give a fuck less what he has to say, about anything. They just go ahead and add arsenic to everything, you know, for the hell of it. Look, he uses (used to use?) Brer Rabbit Molasess... made by a CORPORATION. Called B&G Foods. Website: http://www.bgfoods.com/

"Promoting" something is different than saying "you're not doing it my way, thus not organic". Which is essentially what Hyroot is saying, and which is essentially pompous. What you people don't seem to understand is for a lot of people there is no corner nursery or farm supply store. There is no local rock dust, molasses, kelp, or anything and driving 100 miles to get it isn't local. Then you assume that if there is such a place or thing, it must be like it is where you're at... well it simply isn't.

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You don’t have a landscape company, nursery center, mail order, etc? Let me know where you are and what you have access to, we can make it work. NEVER does it include General Organic or Fox Farm.

Peace!

P-

See, this is so ridiculous when people start you know, putting words and shit into my mouth (so to speak). Oh no, I use language for mature audiences when I'm in the mood. That must make me a total prick. And remember the part where I said I owned a landscape company, mail order, etc. and that I was a scientist and the smartest person in the world. Yeah that's me.

No, actually I just try to keep a little bit of an open perspective on things. The government wont pay for me to go to college and I'm not a minority. Sorry if my wording makes your ass pucker, but don't dare talk to me about "respect" or "attitude" when you can't accept that different people have different needs, and I am for the most part just playing devils advocate here. Way to quote me and then rant about my language, though.

For anybody who actually cares, this is exactly my point. Look at Pattahabi get all bent out of shape as if I am attacking his religion, his very God, or something. Just because I am open to folks getting into growing with microbes without being hassled and getting overwhelmed. Well, sorry if I fucking offended you. And grow up. Fuck is just a word. It's an adjective, an adverb, a verb, and a fucking noun, too.

In response to some of those straw men.

Pattahabi said:

I’m still happy if people are using cardboard and making their own castings. People in the ROLS thread knew about UNCO corps a long time ago. And yeah, it DOES matter! Commercially produced means sitting in a bag. You telling me that’s the same as fresh castings?

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No. Dolt. Jesus.

That is probably true, and it's also why I don't buy castings from Unco Industries, and it's also a straw man. In fact, I have a worm bin. But none of that matters, and none of that means that ALL commercially produced castings are bad.

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It doesn't matter to me that not everyone who wants to do this can't produce their own castings. Or just because "OMG THEY'RE NOT FRESH", or any of that all or nothing bullshit. And just because Unco Industries makes a shitty product, does not mean all castings are equally bad, nor does it mean XYZ brand of bagged castings is as good as fresh castings. You follow?
Commercially produced means sold for money. Even if it was "locally made", if it is sold on any kind of scale it is "Commercially produced". Just because it came in a bag doesn't make it horrible or tainted. Obviously the less time it was in said bag the better, but as long as said bag is able to breath and they don't smell like crap I'd say it's not my business where other people get their castings.

Pattahabi said:

I had high school chemistry, does that count?

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No, no it doesn't. Unless maybe you can describe bonding theory and and list the kinds of bonds in order of weakest to strongest.

Pattahabi said:

I’ll use common sense and say many of the compounds we desire do not make it through the processing procedure here. But Please enlighten me, are we getting the same things from seaweed extract as we are kelp meal?

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Actually, that seems a lot more like a cocky assumption. What do you suppose the point of an extract is, anyway? Extracts are more concentrated. Hence is it the same? No, but that's kind of the point. It would appear that in terms of potassium and minerals, yeah you're getting the same things (in varying amounts). As for the other "compounds we desire", if you'd actually go and do some research before being a douche, you might find something like this.

The concentration of mineral nutrient elements present in commercial seaweed concentrates (SWCs) alone cannot account for the growth responses elicited by seaweed extracts (Blunden 1972, 1991). Beneficial effects observed in various plant growth bioassays have led to speculation that SWCs contain plant growth-regulatory substances (Williams and others 1981; Tay and others 1985; Mooney and van Staden 1986). Furthermore, the wide range of growth responses induced by seaweed extracts implies the presence of more than one group of plant growth-promoting substances/hormones (Tay and others 1985; Crouch and van Staden 1993a).

Click to expand...

Pattahabi said:

Does that make me a snob?

What? You don’t use the stuff in the bottle, isn’t that just as good?

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It only makes you a snob if your panties get all twisted up because other people do things different than you. Have you even been reading my posts? Also, sometimes I use... both. Stuff in the bottle is good for a quick foliar.

Nullis said:

See, this is so ridiculous when people start you know, putting words and shit into my mouth (so to speak). Oh no, I use language for mature audiences when I'm in the mood. That must make me a total prick. And remember the part where I said I owned a landscape company, mail order, etc. and that I was a scientist and the smartest person in the world. Yeah that's me.

No, actually I just try to keep a little bit of an open perspective on things. The government wont pay for me to go to college and I'm not a minority. Sorry if my wording makes your ass pucker, but don't dare talk to me about "respect" or "attitude" when you can't accept that different people have different needs, and I am for the most part just playing devils advocate here. Way to quote me and then rant about my language, though.

For anybody who actually cares, this is exactly my point. Look at Pattahabi get all bent out of shape as if I am attacking his religion, his very God, or something. Just because I am open to folks getting into growing with microbes without being hassled and getting overwhelmed. Well, sorry if I fucking offended you. And grow up. Fuck is just a word. It's an adjective, an adverb, a verb, and a fucking noun, too.

In response to some of those straw men.

No. Dolt. Jesus. It doesn't matter to me that not everyone who wants to do this can't produce their own castings. Or just because "OMG THEY'RE NOT FRESH", or any of that all or nothing bullshit. And just because Unco Industries makes a shitty product, does not mean all castings are equally bad, nor does it mean XYZ brand of bagged castings is as good as fresh castings. You follow?
Commercially produced means sold for money. Even if it was "locally made", if it is sold on any kind of scale it is "Commercially produced". Just because it came in a bag doesn't make it horrible or tainted. Obviously the less time it was in said bag the better, but as long as said bag is able to breath and they don't smell like crap I'd say it's not my business where other people get their castings.


No, no it doesn't. Unless maybe you can describe bonding theory and and list the kinds of bonds in order of weakest to strongest.

Actually, that seems a lot more like a cocky assumption. What do you suppose the point of an extract is, anyway? Extracts are more concentrated. Hence is it the same? No, but that's kind of the point. It would appear that in terms of potassium and minerals, yeah you're getting the same things (in varying amounts). As for the other "compounds we desire", if you'd actually go and do some research before being a douche, you might find something like this.



It only makes you a snob if your panties get all twisted up because other people do things different than you. Have you even been reading my posts? Also, sometimes I use... both. Stuff in the bottle is good for a quick foliar.

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This about all the time I'll spend on your post. Pretty simple, fresh is better. Reducing kelp down and reconstituting it is like the difference between tang and a real orange. All your wanna be scientist crap doesn't change that.



P-

... Did I say "fresh isn't better"? NO. Straw man. And if that's the best you have in the face of actual research on the matter, whatever, you're pathetic as hyroot now.

All I am saying is there are countless ways to skin a rabbit. If you thinking only your way is the only way to grow organically makes you all warm and fuzzy, good for you.

First you say "oh well there must not be cytokinins or pgrs". Then I try to show you something that actually describes the components of the extracts as well as natural kelp, and instead it's "well fresh is just better". Okay then. Doing some quick research on something to verify facts before running my mouth must just make me a wanna be scientist. Ironically... well, I actually wanna be a scientist. Fuck me.

Fact of the matter is, you can grow in living soil, with General Organics products, which do not contain blatantly synthetic ingredients like FF products do. You can start with a bagged mix, amend a bagged mix and it'll still be alive. Microbes, springtails, mites and all; imagine that. Use industry and home by-products when you can (e.g. eggshells), but don't feel bad if you use fish fertilizer or something else out of a bottle, or a bag, which was derived from natural ingredients and doesn't contain EDTA, calcium or ammonium nitrate. And don't feel bad if you can't make enough of your own compost or castings or even house worms at all. Just do the best you can.

Nullis said:

... Did I say "fresh isn't better"? NO. Straw man. And if that's the best you have in the face of actual research on the matter, whatever, you're pathetic as hyroot now.

All I am saying is there are countless ways to skin a rabbit. If you thinking only your way is the only way to grow organically makes you all warm and fuzzy, good for you.

First you say "oh well there must not be cytokinins or pgrs". Then I try to show you something that actually describes the components of the extracts as well as natural kelp, and instead it's "well fresh is just better". Okay then. Doing some quick research on something to verify facts before running my mouth must just make me a wanna be scientist. Ironically... well, I actually wanna be a scientist. Fuck me.

Fact of the matter is, you can grow in living soil, with General Organics products, which do not contain blatantly synthetic ingredients like FF products do. You can start with a bagged mix, amend a bagged mix and it'll still be alive. Microbes, springtails, mites and all; imagine that. Use industry and home by-products when you can (e.g. eggshells), but don't feel bad if you use fish fertilizer or something else out of a bottle, or a bag, which was derived from natural ingredients and doesn't contain EDTA, calcium or ammonium nitrate. And don't feel bad if you can't make enough of your own compost or castings or even house worms at all. Just do the best you can.

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Got a journal straw man?

Ohh no. Not the "got a journal?" card.

Talk about dick sizing eh?

Nullis said:

Ohh no. Not the "got a journal?" card.

Talk about dick sizing eh?

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Size this douche, go find secondary metabolite information on seaweed extract and kelp meal. Then tell me how your bottled garbage is just as good?

But I thought you were more interested in my journal or lack thereof?

Look, you are arguing over nothing. It really is pointless when you apparently lack all ability to follow logic. For instance, when your rebuttal to somebody is to instead fabricate a point by which to pretend they were making, you're attacking the straw man. "Tell me how your bottled garbage is just as good?" is another of your straw men. Before that it was "well fresh is better" (when I never said 'fresh wasn't' better). Both are arguing against a misrepresentation of statements I've made.

Funny thing is "secondary metabolite information on seaweed and kelp meal" is almost exactly not quite what I originally posted a link to in post #24.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/225338767_Seaweed_Extracts_as_Biostimulants_of_Plant_Growth_and_Development/links/0912f50c0ea222a6af000000&ei=yHFSVP35LcujyATryYG4Bg&usg=AFQjCNH5cb1vwHOT8qWNf1m7A93PY3Lb0A&bvm=bv.78597519,d.aWw

Interesting article, even expounds on how seaweed (and extracts) improve soil structure. More importantly indicates there are indeed growth hormones in the extract(s), and they do indeed elicit various responses in plants.

So, why not do me a favor and tell me why this ("mine"?) bottled (or powdered) 'garbage', (that I never even said was "just as good" or exactly the same or any such, nor was that remotely the point) is so damned toxic? If you know and all, and you know where such information is which elaborates on the substantial differences between fresh kelp meal and extract\liquid and why the extract is so horrid- then why not just provide that information? That would be akin to facilitating a mature 'debate' (all obscenities aside. fuck.) as opposed to this straight up pissing contest.

From what I can tell- and it probably doesn't matter what I say, because either P-habi or hyroot is going to stretch my words or ask me to tell them how something I didn't quite say is the way I never said it was- but from what I can figure, an extract of seaweed is going to have virtually all of the same macro, minor and trace nutrients, alginic acid, growth hormones, etc. as fresh kelp meal does. The extracts are very likely going to be more concentrated in everything except perhaps vitamins, chlorophyll, things of that nature (depending on the extraction technique).

Extract isn't a dirty word- they can be made with natural solvents despite that none remains in the finished product anyways. I'm sure there are a variety of processes for making kelp extract, and I am sure the results differ somewhat for each as far as exact composition goes.

Fresh kelp meal is great, and it's also slow release in soil. Liquid and powdered kelp extracts are a more concentrated and readily available source of potash, minerals, and hormones too. They also happen to be very convenient for foliar. Powdered extract is also quite a bit less bulky than kelp meal, which believe it or not can be beneficial for other reasons like shipping (costs and fuel savings) and storing. Pros and cons. Diff'rent strokes.

Nullis said:

So, why not do me a favor and tell me why this ("mine"?) bottled (or powdered) 'garbage', (that I never even said was "just as good" or exactly the same or any such, nor was that remotely the point) is so damned toxic? If you know and all, and you know where such information is which elaborates on the substantial differences between fresh kelp meal and extract\liquid and why the extract is so horrid- then why not just provide that information? That would be akin to facilitating a mature 'debate' (all obscenities aside. fuck.) as opposed to this straight up pissing contest.

Extract isn't a dirty word- they can be made with natural solvents despite that none remains in the finished product anyways. I'm sure there are a variety of processes for making kelp extract, and I am sure the results differ somewhat for each as far as exact composition goes.

Fresh kelp meal is great, and it's also slow release in soil. Liquid and powdered kelp extracts are a more concentrated and readily available source of potash, minerals, and hormones too. They also happen to be very convenient for foliar. Powdered extract is also quite a bit less bulky than kelp meal, which believe it or not can be beneficial for other reasons like shipping (costs and fuel savings) and storing. Pros and cons. Diff'rent strokes.

Click to expand...

Sodium hydroxide, also known as caustic soda,[3][4] or lye, is an inorganic compound with the chemical formula NaOH. It is a white solid and highly caustic metallic base and alkali salt which is available in pellets, flakes, granules, and as prepared solutions at a number of different concentrations.[7] Sodium hydroxide forms an approximately 50% (by weight) saturated solution with water.[8]

Sodium hydroxide is used in many industries, mostly as a strong chemical base in the manufacture of pulp and paper, textiles, drinking water, soaps and detergents and as a drain cleaner.

Liquid Draino MSDS enclosed please note Sodium hydroxide as the third ingredient.

Yummy!

P-

... and on to another topic almost entirely unrelated to the excerpt you quoted of mine. On to another straw man.

See, I believe it was an entirely different post where I simply said KOH (not NaOH) was a naturally occurring mined mineral, which it is, (or can be, though I suppose NaOH could be, too). Just like magnesium sulfate (epsom salt, epsomite, kieserite), potassium sulfate (sulfate of potash), copper sulfate (chalcanthite), calcium sulfate dihydrate (gypsum), iron oxide (hematite) etc. More importantly, I said it could be used in various extraction processes (in general, not necessarily kelp-related) where it doesn't even remain in the finished product.

Example: Soap making. Dr. Bronner's all the way. It's called saponification, and no lye remains in the soap. You do use soap... don't you?

Any point you were trying to make is moot on so many levels. For one thing, you've failed to even demonstrate that either KOH or NaOH is actually in all (or any, for that matter) kelp-concentrate products, or that either are even used during manufacture whatsoever. I certainly never said it was. Once again, I only mentioned being familiar with methods using KOH for an A\B extraction in order to obtain the HA-faction of compost or brown coal (which requires alkalinity, as well as a solvent). It was my understanding that most kelp concentrate products where either "cold pressed" or processed enzymatically.

BTW, neither KOH nor NaOH are used as solvents per se. They're used along with actual solvents (sorry for prior mis-wording) if alkalinity is required. Things like KOH are used to basify, or raise the pH of a solution if necessary, and most typically are purged from the finished product. Ethanol would be a solvent, for example, and a natural one at that. Chloroform would be an "organic" solvent. Solvents are virtually always purged from concentrates, whatever the finished product may be, because they can typically be reclaimed and recycled.

Now, the main problem is you're using "inorganic" in the chemical context, when you really have no idea what you're talking about. All "inorganic" means in this sense is that there are NO CARBON ATOMS in the structure. Rock dust is chock FULL of inorganic phosphates and other inorganic mineral salts. Igneous rocks like granite, basalt contain inorganic mineral salts. Plant roots themselves actually absorb most of their nutrients in a form which is inorganic: ionic; as charged particles (cations, anions) which are not bound to carbon.

Carbonate rocks such as limestone and dolomite, contain carbonate mineral [salts] like calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate. These are chemically "organic" because the carbonate ion (CO3, 2-) contains a carbonyl moiety, which features a carbon atom double bonded to an oxygen. Carbonates are salts of carbonic acid. Salts in this case are ionic compounds, formed through electrostatic attraction between cations and anions (ions, charged particles). Ionic bonds are generally formed between metals and non-metals, and they happen when the difference in electronegativity is so great that it causes electrons, or pairs, to move from one species to the other. Calcium cation is Ca+2 where as the polyatomic carbonate anion has a charge of -2. Calcium therefore donates the 2 electrons in it's outer shell to the carbonate anion, thus forming the calcium salt of carbonic acid.

Table salt is an ionic compound formed when a sodium cation famously donates it's outermost electron to a chlorine anion. Ionic compounds dissociate in solution to whatever extent is determined by their solubility. This means they revert back to being independent cations and anions, which plant roots happen to absorb.

And just for fun: Calcium carbonate is used to make cement (and paper products, too). There is diatomaceous earth in kitty litter (and pool filters, and spices). Both substances can be quite irritating to skin, eyes and mucous membranes. Candy is often coated with shellac derived from insect bodies. Food grade pigments are derived from insect bodies. Salt substitute (potassium chloride) is used for lethal injection. Molasses is a rust removal product, thanks to hydroxamic acids.

Enzymes (perfectly natural) are also used as detergents AND............. wait for it.........: AS DRAIN CLEANER!
In fact, if you knew anything about EM-1, or bokashi, you might be aware that it can actually be used... as drain cleaner!

Please note that alfalfa meal causes chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer, birth defects, or other reproductive harm.

From the NOP list of allowed synthetics in organics...

Aquatic Plant Products – synthetically extracted

Status:Allowed
Class:Crop Fertilizers and Soil Amendments
Origin:Synthetic
Description:
Nonsynthetic extracts are allowed. Synthetic extraction process is limited to the use of potassium hydroxide or sodium hydroxide; solvent amount used is limited to that amount necessary for extraction. Aquatic plant products are prohibited if they contain synthetic preservatives such as formaldehyde, or are fortified with otherwise prohibited plant nutrient sources.
NOP Rule:205.601(j)(1) As plant or soil amendments… Aquatic plant extracts (other than hydrolyzed)—Extraction process is limited to the use of potassium hydroxide or sodium hydroxide; solvent amount used is limited to that amount necessary for extraction.

If you're feeling bottle withdrawal/need some draino in your life, then by all means go with the seaweed extract. Personally, I'll stick with and recommend kelp meal.

Btw, it's my understanding the kelp companies lobbied to have sodium hydroxide included in the NOP list.

P-

Pattahabi said:

From the NOP list of allowed synthetics in organics...

Aquatic Plant Products – synthetically extracted

Status:Allowed
Class:Crop Fertilizers and Soil Amendments
Origin:Synthetic
Description:
Nonsynthetic extracts are allowed. Synthetic extraction process is limited to the use of potassium hydroxide or sodium hydroxide; solvent amount used is limited to that amount necessary for extraction. Aquatic plant products are prohibited if they contain synthetic preservatives such as formaldehyde, or are fortified with otherwise prohibited plant nutrient sources.
NOP Rule:205.601(j)(1) As plant or soil amendments… Aquatic plant extracts (other than hydrolyzed)—Extraction process is limited to the use of potassium hydroxide or sodium hydroxide; solvent amount used is limited to that amount necessary for extraction.

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Meaning at the very most, any extraction process which does utilize any synthetic substance for basification, it is limited to KOH or NaOH (seeing as these exist as mined minerals and it's probably more practical to use synthetic sources since mining is bad for the environment). But, extracts cannot contain synthetic preservatives or be fortified with anything.

Still doesn't mean it's in the finished product. Still doesn't characterize all such products. Still doesn't even touch on the other points of my previous thread, such as that you lack understanding of what "organic" even means to chemistry, agriculture, or otherwise. And furthermore, you're a fricken dolt. Ohh yeah, total bottle withdrawal here. Especially when I said I use raw kelp meal. Pull the hair out of your ass please.

Nullis said:

Meaning at the very most, any extraction process which does utilize any synthetic substance for basification, it is limited to KOH or NaOH (seeing as these exist as mined minerals and it's probably more practical to use synthetic sources since mining is bad for the environment). But, extracts cannot contain synthetic preservatives or be fortified with anything.

Still doesn't mean it's in the finished product. Still doesn't characterize all such products. Still doesn't even touch on the other points of my previous thread, such as that you lack understanding of what "organic" even means to chemistry, agriculture, or otherwise. And furthermore, you're a fricken dolt. Ohh yeah, total bottle withdrawal here. Especially when I said I use raw kelp meal. Pull the hair out of your ass please.

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Here you go straw man...

An inorganic compound is a compound that is not considered "organic". Inorganic compounds are traditionally viewed as being synthesized by the agency of geological systems. In contrast, organic compounds are found in biological systems. Organic chemists traditionally refer to any molecule containing carbon as an organic compound and by default this means that inorganic chemistry deals with molecules lacking carbon.[1] The 19th century chemist, Berzelius, described inorganic compounds as inanimate, not biological, origin,[2] although many minerals are of biological origin. Biologists may distinguish organic from inorganic compounds in a different way that does not hinge on the presence of a carbon atom. Pools of organic matter, for example, that have been metabolically incorporated into living tissues persist in decomposing tissues, but as molecules become oxidized into the open environment, such as atmospheric CO2, this creates a separate pool of inorganic compounds.

Also, when sodium hydroxide is not used, then phosphoric acid is used to stop the biology. None of this stuff I want to be adding to my plants. So yet AGAIN this is why I tell people to take a hard look at the bottles in their garden.

P-

Pattahabi said:

Here you go straw man...

An inorganic compound is a compound that is not considered "organic" (oh, really wikipedia?). Inorganic compounds are traditionally viewed as being synthesized by the agency of geological systems. In contrast, organic compounds are found in biological systems. Organic chemists traditionally refer to any molecule containing carbon as an organic compound and by default this means that inorganic chemistry deals with molecules lacking carbon.[1] The 19th century chemist, Berzelius, described inorganic compounds as inanimate, not biological, origin,[2] although many minerals are of biological origin. Biologists may distinguish organic from inorganic compounds in a different way that does not hinge on the presence of a carbon atom. Pools of organic matter, for example, that have been metabolically incorporated into living tissues persist in decomposing tissues, but as molecules become oxidized into the open environment, such as atmospheric CO2, this creates a separate pool of inorganic compounds.

Also, when sodium hydroxide is not used, then phosphoric acid is used to stop the biology. None of this stuff I want to be adding to my plants. So yet AGAIN this is why I tell people to take a hard look at the bottles in their garden.

P-

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Lol. Right. Organic chemistry deals entirely with carbon, because carbon is sort of a special element which can bond to itself and form a huge variety of compounds, and many of these necessary for life. Therefore 'organic' has other meanings, related to life or material which was once living. An inorganic compound can be organically derived, or derived from GEOLOGY, is essentially all that is saying (came from something once living, or otherwise made by earth forces).

Plants take up nutrients in inorganic form, as ions, regardless.

Now, personally I don't really care WHAT the NOP or OMRI says. That doesn't dictate how horticultural companies actually make there products. But, just because a synthetic substance is "allowed" doesn't mean shit. There are typically restrictions, or it is only allowed for specific things under certain circumstances, e.g. for disinfecting, cleaning, or even such things as peeling fruit. Read the fucking things you post.

Aquatic Plant Products – synthetically extracted
Status: Allowed
Class: Crop Fertilizers and Soil Amendments
Origin: Synthetic
Description:
Nonsynthetic extracts are allowed. Synthetic extraction process is limited to the use of potassium hydroxide or sodium hydroxide; solvent amount used is limited to that amount necessary for extraction. Aquatic plant products are prohibited if they contain synthetic preservatives such as formaldehyde, or are fortified with otherwise prohibited plant nutrient sources.
NOP Rule: 205.601(j)(1) As plant or soil amendments… Aquatic plant extracts (other than hydrolyzed)—Extraction process is limited to the use of potassium hydroxide or sodium hydroxide; solvent amount used is limited to that amount necessary for extraction.

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Means nonsynthetic extracts are allowed. The only kinds of synthetic extracts must have been processed with either KOH or NaOH. Nothing more, nothing less, and who cares?

Aquatic Plant Products
Status: Prohibited
Class: Crop Fertilizers and Soil Amendments, Crop Pest, Weed, and Disease Control
Origin: Synthetic
Description:
Aquatic plant products are prohibited if they contain synthetic preservatives, such as formaldehyde, are extracted by synthetic solvents not on the National List, or are fortified with otherwise prohibited plant nutrients, including phosphoric acid or solvents that exceed the amount necessary for extraction. Potassium hydroxide extracted aquatic plant products may not be blended with synthetically extracted humic acid derivatives. Aquatic plant products that are chemically reacted with extractants may not be used as plant growth regulators.
NOP Rule: 205.105(a)

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All references to "KOH": http://www.omri.org/simple-gml-search/results/"Potassium Hydroxide"

Nullis said:

Now, personally I don't really care WHAT the NOP or OMRI says. That doesn't dictate how horticultural companies actually make there products. But, just because a synthetic substance is "allowed" doesn't mean shit. There are typically restrictions, or it is only allowed for specific things under certain circumstances, e.g. for disinfecting, cleaning, or even such things as peeling fruit. Read the fucking things you post.


Means nonsynthetic extracts are allowed. The only kinds of synthetic extracts must have been processed with either KOH or NaOH. Nothing more, nothing less, and who cares?


All references to "KOH": http://www.omri.org/simple-gml-search/results/"Potassium Hydroxide"

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Lmao... Nah companies spend millions to put out a product, but they don't check with the NOP or OMRI first to make sure they are going to get their organic certification.

P-

omri is bullshit., if you pay enough you can get windex omri listed.

@Pattahabi just stop. Null and void. He will copy and paste wikipedia all day long. He has nothing better to do. He will never concede no matter how wrong he is. You will never win with this guy.

Uhhh. Just who was copying and pasting from wikipedia hyroot? And who was trying to reply in their own words?Where did I quote wiki in this hyroot (besides the posts where I quoted P-habi who was quoting wikipedia)? Who in fact did directly quote wiki (and misquote it) hyroot? Hi hyroot. I know might not think so right now, but daddy loves you.

Pattahabi said:

Lmao... Nah companies spend millions to put out a product, but they don't check with the NOP or OMRI first to make sure they are going to get their organic certification.

P-

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I seriously doubt quite that much money goes into financing most products, and could you quit generalizing about everything and being so presumptuous for like a single second? But the NOP\OMRI thing is interesting, I'll give you that. You know educated folks actually debate about this kind of stuff (believe it or not) and other people can appeal decisions ultimately made about allowed substances? Maybe you're like me and hyroot and don't really care significantly about the OMRI (there are other review boards, and products that just don't get "certified"), but it is interesting. More interesting is how products are manufactured, but of course that knowledge is typically somewhat guarded (capitalism at work again)

So instead of you getting me the info I was asking if you could elaborate on, or pointing me to something which did, in words I could understand, I went and found it my damned self. http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELPRD3456145

Describes the synthetic process, some common non-synthetic processes and why alkali extracts may be preferred, in good detail without a piss-fest. Guess why the alkali-extracts are preferred? For more complete extraction of the plant growth substances (that you figured would destroy them). Now I wonder why the evil seaweed companies would lobby for such a horrendous measure.

One thing I can do at least is admit I was wrong about something (unlike either of you), like how I assumed either KOH\NaOH might be mined, when more typically it turns out to be from electrolysis of muriate of potash (KCl, which is from ore). It can also be a byproduct of making hydrochloric acid. However, lye has been used in a wide variety of processes from foodstuffs to soap making for a very long time. Hundreds of years ago it was derived from wood ashes.

Still, just because the 'NOP\OMRI regulations' allow SWC's to be made with processes that use KOH\NaOH, simply doesn't mean:

1. That they're all made this way (because there are "NON SYNTHETIC EXTRACTS", which are allowed and why wouldn't they be)
   
2. That any significant quantity of KOH\NaOH even remains in the finished product (for products that actually ARE made that way)
3. That doing so chemically alters the compounds in the kelp, in fact such extracts are specifically not allowed, nor are KOH extracts to be blended "with synthetically extracted humic acid derivatives" (but who cares?)
   
4. That products which ARE made that way are necessarily bad- a Draino MSDS doesn't demonstrate that, and why the hell not just provide the actual MSDS for lye itself? Were you not keen enough to, or did you just figure it looked worse as a component of big, bad 'drain cleaner'? ...Bokashi?
5. If these extracts have more PGRs, are more complete extractions, why isn't that a "good" thing?
6. What benefit is it to the evil seaweed companies to taint their products with caustic chemicals they have to buy, which actually destroy their product and make it less effective?

To recap, I sorta feel as if I am being attacked for basically saying there are different ways to grow (and I have a potty mouth). Then you run with this particular bit about the seaweed extract with horrible caustic chemicals and the phosphoric acid like I am supposed to know wth you are talking about, just to rant about this particular class of seaweed extracts that could be made employing KOH\NaOH (stuff made in labs), which you suppose must destroy all the PGRs, or whatever...

Flipping out because KOH\NaOH apparently are the ONLY synthetic substances allowed [to be used in the extraction process]. I have to go find the information myself and go figure, it might actually facilitate the extraction to help remove more of the plant-derived plant growth hormones and substances unique to kelp. The only thing stopping the biological activity in the product is pH, and it really would be best if those compounds not decay before they reach the consumer. It's a cluster fuck. But for aforementioned points, I digress.

I dunno. I don't give a fuck about conspiracy theories, or delusional people (other than myself) who fly off the handle over differing perspectives.

... And to set the record straight about the General Organics Bio-Weed (seeing that GO was among the original topics of this thread), this particular product is "cold pressed" and does not even employ the alkali extraction process that so outrages Pattahabi.
http://generalhydroponics.com/site/gh/docs/prod_msds/BioWeed.pdf

Pennington\Alaska Brand Liquid Kelp also does not employ the alkali extraction process. It is 100% mechanically manufactured, unadulterated kelp cytoplasm.
http://www.lillymiller.com/msds/alaska/MSDS_Alaska_by_Pennington_Pure_Kelp_Fertlizer_0.13-0-0.60_Item_No._100509476.pdf

Yet they are still two completely different products, and the Bio-Weed is not only more concentrated, but thicker, fresher smelling and green (contains chlorophyll). A friend of mine actually got a bottle of Bio-Weed once that did have stuff growing in it, opened it up to find a mass of mold and fermented-immiscible material. This isn't typical, but goes to show the product obviously supports life.

Maxicrop, another product that has been around for a very long time, might be alkali processed and is OMRI-approved. http://www.maxicrop.com/PDFs/MAX_OMRI_2014.pdf
And so what? Using a product that was made using minor amounts of KOH or even phosphoric acid (to improve\stabilize the product) isn't the same as pouring lye on your plants. Far from it. It's also no big secret, or conspiracy, when the words "synthetically extracted" are right there on the certificate for anybody interested to see. 99%+ of the components in the bottle, on a molecular level: the minerals, micronutrients, amino acids and growth regulators were still directly derived from and are natural components of kelp.

Furthermore, plenty of actual research has been done on kelp extracts to show that they do indeed work and do indeed contain PGRs. So why use kelp extracts along with or opposed to kelp meal? Because they have benefits over kelp meal, aside from just ease of use, storage and transportation. Benefits which have been known for the past several decades.

It is therefore clear that while seaweed, in common with all organic matter, is beneficial to soil and plant, it has to be broken down, or decomposed, before its benefits are available. (I have already pointed out, but repeat it here, that liquid seaweed extract is not subject to this latent period. The nutrients and other substances it contains are available to the plant at once.)

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http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/seaweed.html

At the end of the day I don't care whether somebody wants to get into organics with naturally derived bottled products like fish or seaweed concentrates, or if they want to use Espoma -Tone products, or Jobes Organics, or buy or amend bagged soil mixes.