Heisenbeans Genetics

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Gotcha,my only reason in bringing this up is. I'd like to make beans from any S1 I find desireble. Not cross it to something. Keeping clones won't be viable as I will be running thru beans this year, the cloner is for my perpetual tent's strains. So,I'd like to make beans of s1's to revist the strain again when I want to.

Thanks @HydroRed and @Heisenbeans for the discussion.
 
HydroRed said:
An S1 of itself is still going to be an S1. If you selfed an S1 and took pollen from that and pollinated the original mom, then you would have legit S2's and they would probably be a real close representation of the original cut with less variation.



I understand that, but there never going to be anything but an S1 until another plant is introduced aside from "brother/sister" plants. It would be totally pointless to breed "brother & sister" from the same S1's. Isnt that why breeders bx is to solidify genes and breed in/out certain traits? Those genomes never change unless you do.


You will get different variations from S1's compared to the original that the S1seeds came from. If you plant 6 GG4 S1's and you find one that is close to the original cut of Glue, then selfed that, and pollinate the original mom you will be dialing in the desired traits making your seeds a closer representation of the original cut. If you bought true S2' or better, it would be a safe bet that your gonna have some fire plants real damn close to the original GG4 cut.
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This^^^ Thank you.:clap:
 
Whew...my heads spinnin. Time for a smoke break haha
CoB_nUt said:
Gotcha,my only reason in bringing this up is. I'd like to make beans from any S1 I find desireble. Not cross it to something. Keeping clones won't be viable as I will be running thru beans this year, the cloner is for my perpetual tent's strains. So,I'd like to make beans of s1's to revist the strain again when I want to.

Thanks @HydroRed and @Heisenbeans for the discussion.
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You'd be fine with S1's, and a continuance of S1's from any plant you decided to self from the original batch if you found one that you particularly liked.
 
Can't edit your response the way I want to. But just for my own clarity, Red, when you say pollinate the original mom. You are speaking on the Original glue cut right,not the S1 mom bean found?
 
HydroRed said:
Whew...my heads spinnin. Time for a smoke break haha

You'd be fine with S1's, and a continuance of S1's from any plant you decided to self from the original batch if you found one that you particularly liked.
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Lol I knew it was gonna be a pretty draining discussion. But my clarity has manifested, thanks again fellas.
 
Heisenbeans said:
Every breeder seems to have there own terminology for this shit. I was talking to someone about this the other day. All this F1 BX

I never said anything about a selfed plant becoming an F2. If you reverse a female all of her babies wil be S1s. If you take one of her babies and self it you cannot call it an F2 because technically that's what it is without the second parent so it would need to be called and S2 to keep up with the lineage so people will know it's a selfed child of a clone only. You can also say yeah it's a selfed child of X strain or just say GG4 s2 lol.
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Of course you didn't but you do spell out what an F2 means to you and if we follow your thought process here "An f2 would be the child seeds bred together instead of using any of the original parents. So taking 2 children and breeding them together is always considered F2 seeds." It's easy to conclude we cannot get to S2 by your suggestion as no sibling plant has been introduced, only S1 of an S1... so S2 came from where? (this is rhetorical, we understand it's easy to follow nomenclature)
 
HydroRed said:
An S1 of itself is still going to be an S1. If you selfed an S1 and took pollen from that and pollinated the original mom, then you would have legit S2's and they would probably be a real close representation of the original cut with less variation.



I understand that, but there never going to be anything but an S1 until another plant is introduced aside from "brother/sister" plants. It would be totally pointless to breed "brother & sister" from the same S1's. Isnt that why breeders bx is to solidify genes and breed in/out certain traits? Those genomes never change unless you do.


You will get different variations from S1's compared to the original that the S1seeds came from. If you plant 6 GG4 S1's and you find one that is close to the original cut of Glue, then selfed that, and pollinate the original mom you will be dialing in the desired traits making your seeds a closer representation of the original cut. If you bought true S2' or better, it would be a safe bet that your gonna have some fire plants real damn close to the original GG4 cut.
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That's not true man. The more you introduce different strains into a back cross the further you get away from the original plant. Those s1 females no matter how much you find one that's close to the original mom she is still never gonna be as close as her first generation offspring.
If an S1 mom of GG4 has babies. You cannot call them babies GG4 s1s period. They are second generation s1s. Calling them s1 GG4 is bullshit. There is no point in back crossing a child when u have the original.clone only. Nothing will get as close to her than her original first generation children. This is why solfire would not sell F1 banana cookies out of respect for orgn kid because F1s are better seed stock to look through to find a bad ass mom as close to the original.
Trying to get close to the original by backcrossing is like shuffling a deck of cards back into order. Once you have a second gen cross you will get all kinds of variations.
This is why the black banana #9 is an F1 female selected from those 2 original parents. Me selfing her would result in closer representation than his F2s
 
Eh, Just wanted more beans of ANY fem bean I find desireable without buying more. I know the beans won't be exact replicas. I don't sell beans and I'm not a breeder. I chuck for my own selfish reasons. I totally understand where you guys are coming from in regards to the community,breeding ethics,semantics etc. I just wanna keep some fems in bean form and not have to keep cuts of multiple fem strains if I don't have to. Now I have to go to the dollar store. Fresh outta asspaper!
 
CoB_nUt said:
Gotcha,my only reason in bringing this up is. I'd like to make beans from any S1 I find desireble. Not cross it to something. Keeping clones won't be viable as I will be running thru beans this year, the cloner is for my perpetual tent's strains. So,I'd like to make beans of s1's to revist the strain again when I want to.

Thanks @HydroRed and @Heisenbeans for the discussion.
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Yeah so if you find a bad ass wedding cake S1 and make selfed seeds with her you cannot call them seeds S1 wedding cakes because she isn't the original mother. Those seeds you made would be second generation S1s aka s2s lol.
You can give her a different name if you desire than you can call them whatever name u want s1s and that would be different but its all for record keeping purposes and whatever you want people to know about what u have.
 
Heisenbeans said:
Yeah so if you find a bad ass wedding cake S1 and make selfed seeds with her you cannot call them seeds S1 wedding cakes because she isn't the original mother. Those seeds you made would be second generation S1s aka s2s lol.
You can give her a different name if you desire than you can call them whatever name u want s1s and that would be different but its all for record keeping purposes and whatever you want people to know about what u have.
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It's still a self'd plant. It's an self'd plant that was self'd S1²
 
Heisenbeans said:
That's not true man. The more you introduce different strains into a back cross the further you get away from the original plant. Those s1 females no matter how much you find one that's close to the original mom she is still never gonna be as close as her first generation offspring.
If an S1 mom of GG4 has babies. You cannot call them babies GG4 s1s period. They are second generation s1s. Calling them s1 GG4 is bullshit. There is no point in back crossing a child when u have the original.clone only. Nothing will get as close to her than her original first generation children. This is why solfire would not sell F1 banana cookies out of respect for orgn kid because F1s are better seed stock to look through to find a bad ass mom as close to the original.
Trying to get close to the original by backcrossing is like shuffling a deck of cards back into order. Once you have a second gen cross you will get all kinds of variations.
This is why the black banana #9 is an F1 female selected from those 2 original parents. Me selfing her would result in closer representation than his F2s
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You keep mentioning "cross" when there is no cross unless you are introducing another plant (mom,sister,brother, etc). A selfed GG4 S1, selfed again, then selfed again, then selfed again is still just a GG4 S1. The only time you are "crossing" anything is when another plant not from that S1 generation is introduced. I wont argue the F1 statements because honestly im still learning, but were not talking F1's. I see what you are getting at with not calling something a "GG4 S1" if it is a selfed S1 (the semantics Cob was referring to), but thats exactly what it is until you introduce another plant not from that S1 generation.
I copied this from the web.....

SELFING
Selfing is when a mother plant is pollinated by herself. Breeders use special chemicals on female plants to induce stress, which results in the plants producing male flowers, which produce pollen. When this pollen in used on the female flowers of the same plant or a clone from the same mother, the resulting seeds will be “selfed” or coined as S1. When the S1 seeds are backcrossed with the original parent, they’re called S2, S3, and so on. Breeders often do this to preserve the genetics of the strain, and to feminize the seeds.
 
Ok. First of all, a lot of the “breeding terms” used in the cannabis seed game are made up. Outside of filial generations and backcrosses (F1, F2, bx), these terms aren’t used by real geneticists. For example, incross, is not a real genetics term, but breeders use it all the time for all kinds of different crosses.

Side note - I’ve seen a lot of people, particularly on icmag, say that you need to understand Mendelian genetics to be a good breeder. No you don’t. Mendelian genetics is only useful for discrete traits that are controlled by a few loci. Almost every relevant trait in cannabis is a quantitative trait. Mendelian genetics is not useful in those situations. Good breeding is about good selections and nothing else.

The most important thing is having a standardized nomenclature that is consistent so other people understand what you are referring to. S1 is a first generation selfed plant. The original clone was selfed. Those offspring are S1’s. If an S1 is selfed again, it’s called an S2. The second number is used to represent how many generations of selfing has occurred between these offspring and the original clone. Heisen is right. That is how the terms are used, and it should remain that way or else things will get confusing.

The alternative is saying something ridiculous like “s1 of a gg4 s1” or “gg4 s1 s1”.

Is there any benefit to searching further down selfed generations? I would argue not. Each generation, the plants become further and further inbred. Inbreeding depression can ramp up very quickly.
 
Heres the scenario. I gifted Cob some GG4 S1's from a friends grow. My friend got the cut from me so the S1's are from a legit GG4 cut that threw pollen. If Cob plants those 6 seeds and grows them up, then selfed one of those 6 seeds....those resulting seeds are still going to be GG4 S1's. Will there be variation....absolutely.

Maybe if it were an open pollination, but if you just keep selfing an S1, its still going to be just an S1
 
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