Inequality and the USA: A nation in denial?

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reasonevangelist

Well-Known Member
NLXSK1 said:
The fed printing money is just a representation of the growing wealth in America. The wealth is in the buildings, assests, infrastructure and business relationships developed over time.




The money is a representation of wealth. You create wealth by creating buildings, machinery, assets.

When we arrived on the shores of America there was NOTHING. Now we are a superpower worth trillions. Where did all that WEALTH come from if it was not created?? You seem to be missing a basic understanding of the economy.

I have the income I want. I make my own wealth by providing products and/or services. My needs are met. I am simply trying to explain to people who have not had the benefit of an education outside the public school system that the American dream is still possible. What they dont want to hear about is that it is still hard work to achieve.
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You seem to be missing the fact that the hard work is not the problem part; the LACK OF ACCESS TO EFFECTIVE MEANS, is.

The "American Dream" is only available for those who are privileged enough to encounter the means to make it happen. Without those privileged means (whether self-created or otherwise), all the hard work in the world won't mean shit.
 
NLXSK1

NLXSK1

Well-Known Member
reasonevangelist said:
You seem to be missing the fact that the hard work is not the problem part; the LACK OF ACCESS TO EFFECTIVE MEANS, is.

The "American Dream" is only available for those who are privileged enough to encounter the means to make it happen. Without those privileged means (whether self-created or otherwise), all the hard work in the world won't mean shit.
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What exactly are the MEANS and how has business fundamentally changed to remove these from the average person?

Lack of hard work is the problem. Everyone wants stuff to come easy and expected. Padwan wants a guaranteed 40K salary immediately after leaving college.

You can still become wealthy in America if you work hard. You start a small business and build it up. I have started several businesses in the last few years and profited quite handsomely for my time.

What frustrates me is all these people trying to tell me the system is broken when it is the same as it always has been with the exception that there is more government regulation, legislation and other crap that the small business owner has to deal with.
 
R

reasonevangelist

Well-Known Member
NLXSK1 said:
What exactly are the MEANS and how has business fundamentally changed to remove these from the average person?

Lack of hard work is the problem. Everyone wants stuff to come easy and expected. Padwan wants a guaranteed 40K salary immediately after leaving college.

You can still become wealthy in America if you work hard. You start a small business and build it up. I have started several businesses in the last few years and profited quite handsomely for my time.

What frustrates me is all these people trying to tell me the system is broken when it is the same as it always has been with the exception that there is more government regulation, legislation and other crap that the small business owner has to deal with.
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I assure you, there is plenty hard work to go around. The real problem is that those looking to buy labor, want the best labor at the cheapest prices, and then wonder why they're not getting the best labor for their dollar.

Lack of hard work is not the problem. Most people are willing to bust ass in exchange for their wants and needs. What they're not willing to do, is accept too little compensation for their best labor-product, and put up with an overly critical, greedy, penny-pinching jerk of a boss, who expects everyone to value boss-man's profits above their own.

You don't amass considerable wealth by selling your time and labor for dollars; you do so by paying other people less than they want, to do all the work for you. If you scrape a small profit from the labor of numerous employees, you've accumulated large profits, much larger than any single person can do by merely selling their own time, energy, labor, health, etc., for an insufficient wage, which is only touted as "sufficient" by those trying to pay the least for it... who are also the only ones claiming "lack of hard work is the problem."
 
NLXSK1

NLXSK1

Well-Known Member
reasonevangelist said:
I assure you, there is plenty hard work to go around. The real problem is that those looking to buy labor, want the best labor at the cheapest prices, and then wonder why they're not getting the best labor for their dollar.

Lack of hard work is not the problem. Most people are willing to bust ass in exchange for their wants and needs. What they're not willing to do, is accept too little compensation for their best labor-product, and put up with an overly critical, greedy, penny-pinching jerk of a boss, who expects everyone to value boss-man's profits above their own.

You don't amass considerable wealth by selling your time and labor for dollars; you do so by paying other people less than they want, to do all the work for you. If you scrape a small profit from the labor of numerous employees, you've accumulated large profits, much larger than any single person can do by merely selling their own time, energy, labor, health, etc., for an insufficient wage, which is only touted as "sufficient" by those trying to pay the least for it... who are also the only ones claiming "lack of hard work is the problem."
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The government has been devaluing our currency for decades, lessening it's buying power. That is why the middle class is struggling.

The government does that by printing money and causing inflation which lowers it's debts. It is good for the government but bad for the people. Commodity prices have not changed much relative to each other. An ounce of gold will still buy a nice suit and a nice dinner like 100 years ago. It is the representation of that wealth, the dollar that has been continuously eroded.

We are 17 trillion dollars in debt. That is not because the government has not stolen enough from it's citizens it is because the government is SPENDING too much.

Businesses were just forced to take on healthcare for their workers and now ridiculous 15 dollar per hour salaries are being demanded by minimum wage workers.

People dont work for less than they want, they can just pass the job over. You seem to think the value is in the person not the job. That is a fundamental misconception. Any job has a certain value in whatever it produces or collectively produces. You cannot just pull a number out of a hat and demand that compensation for all jobs because the market simply ELIMINATES JOBS that are not profitable.

Stop worrying about other people and start worrying about yourself and make yourself valuable to a company or build a business and be done with it. You can hire people and pay them anything you want to right? I am sure that people would flock to you to work for a starting salary of $20.00 per hour. You could have thousands of people signed up in an afternoon. See, you just fixed the world!!
 
N

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
UncleBuck said:
does the easter bunny drop off the tax return check?
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Only Financial idiots get a tax return check. Why would you lend your money to someone for a year and get no interest payment on it? Why not invest it in a safe bond vehicle or something so you can grow your money instead of throw it away? If you are getting tax return checks you aren't really paying attention to your finances.

Why would you overpay your taxes?
 
ginwilly

ginwilly

Well-Known Member
NoDrama said:
Only Financial idiots get a tax return check. Why would you lend your money to someone for a year and get no interest payment on it? Why not invest it in a safe bond vehicle or something so you can grow your money instead of throw it away? If you are getting tax return checks you aren't really paying attention to your finances.

Why would you overpay your taxes?
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He also completely missed the point of a flat tax. There is no check coming or going at the end of the year unless you are self employed.

You can tell some here are not used to paying taxes.
 
N

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
ginwilly said:
You can tell some here are not used to paying taxes.
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I think buck got a tax return check for all the taxers he paid in in the last 5 years, $79 or something like that. He doesn't pay taxes on his sales of the treadmills. He harps on tax dodgers, while being one himself, same as being a racist who calls everyone else a racist so as to throw the scent off. The guy is like a 50/50 mix of hypocrite and asshole rolled into one.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
ginwilly said:
I'd suggest you stop thinking of wealth in finite terms. Bill Gates doesn't make billions by making you earn less. Our pie that we all eat from can grow bigger everyday under the right circumstances. I think we both agree that today's economic climate isn't exactly the best circumstances anymore, but I'd bet we differ on the issues.

Grow your own slice, it doesn't mean you are taking from someone else, honest.
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Simply not true. The money supply is indeed finite.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
NLXSK1 said:
What exactly are the MEANS and how has business fundamentally changed to remove these from the average person?

Lack of hard work is the problem. Everyone wants stuff to come easy and expected. Padwan wants a guaranteed 40K salary immediately after leaving college.

You can still become wealthy in America if you work hard. You start a small business and build it up. I have started several businesses in the last few years and profited quite handsomely for my time.

What frustrates me is all these people trying to tell me the system is broken when it is the same as it always has been with the exception that there is more government regulation, legislation and other crap that the small business owner has to deal with.
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No, we've been trying to tell you that legislation over the past fifteen years has made a bad problem exponentially worse.

Go back at look at the graphs again; the country's prosperity is tilting and sinking under the weight of an privileged bloat class, and it can't continue any more than the dot com boon could in the late nineties.
 
ginwilly

ginwilly

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
Simply not true. The money supply is indeed finite.
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You must not be paying much attention to what our Fed has done the past few years. 85B a month has been digitized from nothing. I think we are up to QE4 or whatever they call it.

We are not the only country doing this, in fact I think the entire G8 has done this magic act in some form.

17T in debt with no sign of receding shows money is infinite.
 
Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
Please paste the text of this proposed amendment?
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From wolf-pac.com;

"The Wolf-PAC Resolution does not contain specific amendment language because we truly want to hear all sides and solutions at the amendments convention. We think the amendment should contain these core values:

"Corporations are not people. They have none of the Constitutional rights of human beings. Corporations are not allowed to give money to any politician, directly or indirectly. No politician can raise over $100 from any person or entity. All elections must be publicly financed."

*Note: The finished legislation will be worded differently and have to account for inflation, etc. This is simply to point legislators in the right direction and make sure the final amendment accomplishes the goals we have outlined here."

http://www.wolf-pac.com/28th
 
ginwilly

ginwilly

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
No, we've been trying to tell you that legislation over the past fifteen years has made a bad problem exponentially worse.

Go back at look at the graphs again; the country's prosperity is tilting and sinking under the weight of an privileged bloat class, and it can't continue any more than the dot com boon could in the late nineties.
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Many economists point to Clinton repealing Glass-Steagal, which prevented S&Ls from also being investment banks to the main cause of the collapse of our economy. What they did with credit default swaps should be criminal.

Clinton's advisor has made over 100M since the repeal, so we've got that going for us.

Glass-Steagal was implemented after the 29' crash to make sure it didn't happen again.

The new legislation passed under Obama's first term did nothing to address the underlying problem, eliminated any possible competition to the too big to fail banks, and made those entities that were too big, bigger.

Yes it's a rigged game. Still doesn't mean that somebody getting a million dollar bonus at AT&T means it comes out of the pocket of someone working at Wal-mart (other than increased costs of AT&T products which can be avoided).
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
ginwilly said:
Many economists point to Clinton repealing Glass-Steagal, which prevented S&Ls from also being investment banks to the main cause of the collapse of our economy. What they did with credit default swaps should be criminal.

Clinton's advisor has made over 100M since the repeal, so we've got that going for us.

Glass-Steagal was implemented after the 29' crash to make sure it didn't happen again.

The new legislation passed under Obama's first term did nothing to address the underlying problem, eliminated any possible competition to the too big to fail banks, and made those entities that were too big, bigger.

Yes it's a rigged game. Still doesn't mean that somebody getting a million dollar bonus at AT&T means it comes out of the pocket of someone working at Wal-mart (other than increased costs of AT&T products which can be avoided).
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That's just silly. OF COURSE THAT GIANT SALARY COMES OUT OF THE POCKETS OF EVERYONE ASSOCIATED WITH THE COMPANY! Where the Fuck else does it come from but wages and dividends?!
 
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