Is anyone talking about steam distillation? or oil fractitioning? let's talk stills

rene112388

Well-Known Member
sorry about posting same message twice, my computer didnt show me it went trough the first.

as i went to bed i was thinkin that the heat might do something, id love to find out where this road could take me (maybe edibles that dont taste like it?), but I think there's a shorter better road to killer dab oil
 

Blunter the kid

Well-Known Member
sorry about posting same message twice, my computer didnt show me it went trough the first.

as i went to bed i was thinkin that the heat might do something, id love to find out where this road could take me (maybe edibles that dont taste like it?), but I think there's a shorter better road to killer dab oil
That process I mentioned isn't the shortest road to get killer oil, but it is arguably the easiest and the cheapest.
Everything you need to perform that technique is a microwave essential oil still, an alkane such as hexane or pentane, an alcohol, and plant material.
It doesn't require anything expensive, I'm gonna be ordering one of those microwave stills for exactly this purpose.
 
I think you guys are all missing the point about steam distillation. You heat the steam in the process up to the temperature of the substance you want to evaporate. By using steam you are removing all the oxygen so when the temp goes over the point that your oil would normally burn it evaporates and travels along with the steam until it reaches a chamber where the steam is still hot and the oil drops out, it's the same process used to make turpentine. Which boils at a similar temperature as thc. So it would work but it's a wet process, however no chlorophyll will boil out of the first part of the process. The steam would have to be at least 380 degrees maybe higher for it to work. Steam at that temperature is dangerous to work with, more likely to get hurt by explosion than with butane. IMHO it's the solvents that cure cancer anyway. Turpenes are hydrocarbons, so is butane, and hexane. I think if Rick Simpson oil works it's from the solvents.
 

eugeneoregon

Active Member
Hi folks. This topic is something I am extremely interested in. It seems to me that this is the best method of extraction for use in curing disease especially the granddaddy of all disease...cancer. I am extremely interested in being proactive and preventing cancer from spreading rather than treating it later. So, I've gone on utube and googled for days trying to grasp the concept of the science of the pressure that creates the end result by distillation. Here's the thing though. Those stills, even homemade, or oil separators or distillers or whatever is the ultimate way of doing things because the end product is sooooo freakin' pure. But, simply making an alcohol based tincture, straining, and letting the alcohol evaporate, makes the same end product plus much clorophyll and other plant molecules. But ultimately the whole plant rather that pure like an essential oil made by distillation. Did I confuse? I like to use cannabis concentrate in everything from lotions to infused oils and butters. fyi...when it soaks in the skin for hours, the feel is amazing. In coconut oil, the color is the most glowing charetruse; it just looks magic. Anyway, does anyone else do anything like this?
Here is a simple set up for the steam codistillation of dispensary grade extract into purified thc oil. You are correct in that this process produces a pure product (once water is removed). Progressively ore runs through the still produces progressively more purified product, just like short path distillation. I have a modified set up,now that allows continuous operation by using an addition funnel and a three neck flask, but this video is already done and my next video will show the improvement.



I often use steam codistillation for the refinement of thc oil. It is an ancient method. It relies on the fact that that steam will carry the volitile components over into the head. Terpenes are Volitile Organic Compounds (VOCs) and THC is a Volitile aromatic. They "fraction" away from the thc in roughly in the order they would fraction in short path distillation although the temp never exceeds the temperature of water steam - about 98C.
 

eugeneoregon

Active Member
A quick Google search leaves me with the impression that folks are using "distillation" to describe extraction. Distillation requires that the actives spend time in the vapor phase. Cannabinoids can be distilled, but it requires specialist apparatus of the sort I could not jury-rig. cn
THC Oil is in fact easily co distilled with stream. It is,an ancient method that produces pure medicine when used in skillful hands. I,posted one video link below in response to,the thread but I cannot post a link here to wikipedia. Google Wikipedia Steam Codistillation of hemp oil and you can find a good reference



Trust me it works on dispensary grade extract when set up right and is actually very simple to,achieve.
 

eugeneoregon

Active Member
steam distillation will NOT extract CBD, THC or any of the derivatives. BP is too high, its in the range of resins and lipids.

It will extract some of the lighter smelly volatiles so I guess you can make some Cannabis perfume if thats what your after.
Incorrect. Steam codistillation has been used for many lives of men to refine essential oil. I do it at home on a simple setup. When two,immisicible liquids are boiled together they each form their own vapor pressure independent of the other and each will distill over together at the same time. I,have done this in four different ways, but my newest setup allows for continuos operation and I have yet to do a video with the new set up. The oil tags along with the water vapor. Easy as pie. Link to video below. All distillation takes place without a vacuum and is carried out at 98C.
 

BobCajun

Well-Known Member
Incorrect. Steam codistillation has been used for many lives of men to refine essential oil. I do it at home on a simple setup. When two,immisicible liquids are boiled together they each form their own vapor pressure independent of the other and each will distill over together at the same time. I,have done this in four different ways, but my newest setup allows for continuos operation and I have yet to do a video with the new set up. The oil tags along with the water vapor. Easy as pie. Link to video below. All distillation takes place without a vacuum and is carried out at 98C.
Okay this sounds promising. What does the end product look like? Have you tested the THC content? Also I googled steam codistillation, no such thing, just steam distillation. Are you sure what you extracted wasn't just terps?

Actually it looks like you probably turned that heating mantle up high enough to boil the THC and just piped steam over the top of it. Does keep the tubes clean though and helps move the THC out.
 
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eugeneoregon

Active Member
Okay this sounds promising. What does the end product look like? Have you tested the THC content? Also I googled steam codistillation, no such thing, just steam distillation. Are you sure what you extracted wasn't just terps?

Actually it looks like you probably turned that heating mantle up high enough to boil the THC and just piped steam over the top of it. Does keep the tubes clean though and helps move the THC out.
Steam Distillation and steam co-distillation are the same thing as applied here, however I prefer the language of co-distillation to more clearly communicate that this not simply a process to distill water. Google a bit more and you will see the term applied thusly, however this small point is mostly irrelevent. Also, Google "Wikipedia Cannabis Flower Essential Oil" and you can navigate to the wikipedia site that briefly talks about extracting the oil with steam.

THC is a volitile aromatic. Terps are volitile organic compounds (VOCs). Anything volitile will pass over in a steam codistillation product, and in the case of extracts the multiple volitile components generally pass over in the order they would in short path distillation. Pinene first, then thc, then the higher boiling terps like limonene.Each is collected seperately and anything without color is tossed. This is not a new idea at all.

As a kid in Madras Oregom I changed irrigation pipes in vast stretches of mint fields. The only value in mint is oil. At harvest gigantic metal steam codistillation units would be hauled into the fields and this is PRECISELY how the mint farmers extracted the volitile mint oil. I have done this and versions of this multiple times and as a kid I,saw how it worked on a massive scale.

What you see in the tube is an emulsion of water and oil and some terps. This is exactly what you see in short path distillation (I have a hobby rig for that too). The differences are many between short path but some are consistent with any distillation product. In other words, every distillation requires multiple runs for greater purity.

The huge advantage we have when codistilling thc oil is the viscosity. The terpenes that do come over with the oil tend to run out of the condenser while the oil tends to hold up. I know precisely what thc oil is in a pure state as I,produce it also for myself using a cryogenic sublimator (which acts as the ultimate short path distillation unit).

Your question about whether all you see are terps is reasonable however, I also engage in chromatography, both column chromatography (hyper slow and small samples) and more recently I employ Dry Column Vacuum Chromatography using white aluminum oxide as the stationary phase. I can tell you that terpenes are clear unless mixed with water, like pinene will mix, then they present themselves as a white milky sunstance when so mixed. THC oil is yellow. Chromotography for thc relies on colors mostly to identify components. Terpenes are clear and extremely odiferous and will not become solid until nearly as cold as a dry ice/acetone bath. THC oil becomes solid in my freezer easily which is considerably warmer.

What you see in the poorly lighted video dripping out of the tube is nearly pure thc with water mixed through it (an emulsion). Boiling points of any voliitile component are irrelevent when two immiscible substances like thc and water are boiled in the same unit. The steam is moving through very fast (which is why the hot settings). The molecules of thc oil and every other aromatic will fill in the air space immediately above the puddle of oil. When the steam particule flys past and through the suspended aromatic molecules inevitably a collision occurs and the thc molecule hitches a ride on the steam particule until the steam condenses. Just like distilling mint oil.

Irregardless of temperature settings the temperature is limited to about 98C although a much more complete and faster process is to crank it up so he head temp reads 105-115C, however this is a judgement errror I wont make again. Patience and 98C works WONDERS.

The trick to the set up is to run very hot water in the Liebig condenser, otherwise ALL of the oil will hold up in the condenser. Remember, the rules for vapor pressure and the temps associated with it as related to distillation change completely when two or more immiscible liquids are boiled together. If you have ever worked in a restaurant that has a fry cooker, you will notice that the oil gets on EVERYTHING. yuck. This is because when you dump fries into the oil, the steam that is released in cooking carries little bits of oil out of the vat which is deposited anywhere the water condenses, like the floor and walls. The oil in the vat has a MUCH higher boiling point than the water in the fries but is carried out of the vat by the steam and the mess that is created with the oil is a result of steam codistillation of the oil out of the vat.

On my video I placed a link to an explanation. Here it is again at the bottom of this post.

I tried doing the process with exactly the same setup as this guys animation shows and it did work but it is hella hard on glassware and I have cracked two boiling flasks over multiple runs trying to perfect the idea as applied. The video I did simply added a tube to get the steam down into the puddle and also presented the water already as steam into the boiling flask which substantially increased throughput. The first fraction you get will be clear, and if like mine will smell up the house like a pine tree on steroids. It smells pretty nasty. There is actually a vapor that does not condense that is released at first and vented to air. I have no idea whatnis in this first bit of vapor but taking a whiff produced a strong gag response. I am glad I am not inhaling that first part anymore!

At any rate the credit is not mine for figuring out my set up because this sort of thing has been done for eons by men. My newest setup uses a three neck boiling flask with a 25ml addition funnel on top so I can feed the extract in at the same time as steam and so the process is continuous, however I have yet to video tape it.

Sorry for the long post, but I needed to explain. Once you sample thc oil that has substantially been purified I find it tough to think you would want oil any other way, and of the myriad ways I have purified the stuff by far steam codistillation is the least complex and most accessible way too do this without tremendous start up costs and technical epxerience.

Here is the link that pops up in my video that offers the explanation:
 
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eugeneoregon

Active Member
Just look through slunkpharmllc they have pretty decent info. I would only trust scientifically backed methods/websites
skunkpharmllc has good info and they also have erroneous info. It is hard to tell,which is which but despite the name as a research institute it is run by guys who used to use the site for their business outreach of charging folks in classes to show them how to engage in the hyper dangerous and felony practice of the open blasting of BHO in Oregon. The laws motivated them to move on from that endevour, but it is not run by scientists lolz. Some good and some questionable info but hardly a scientific site. It is an advocacy site.
 

BobCajun

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the further explanation. In theory THC/THCA should be steam distillable I suppose. Supposedly the result of distilling water with an immiscible organic compound is a lower BP than either alone. I think the compound needs to be reasonably volatile though. If you say it works then I guess it must. It would be helpful if you make a more detailed video. I'll check the description text though as you suggested.

I know you can distill THC with super-heated steam, around 150 C, but didn't know it could be done at room temperature. You put the steam right through a tube of plant material, I guess you'd need some kind of heating thing on the tube leading from the steam producing flask to boost the temperature to 150.
 

eugeneoregon

Active Member
Thanks for the further explanation. In theory THC/THCA should be steam distillable I suppose. Supposedly the result of distilling water with an immiscible organic compound is a lower BP than either alone. I think the compound needs to be reasonably volatile though. If you say it works then I guess it must. It would be helpful if you make a more detailed video. I'll check the description text though as you suggested.

I know you can distill THC with super-heated steam, around 150 C, but didn't know it could be done at room temperature. You put the steam right through a tube of plant material, I guess you'd need some kind of heating thing on the tube leading from the steam producing flask to boost the temperature to 150.
Superheated steam is essentially how I began this idea although I very quickly trashed the glassware doing it. I do have three videos of this and it is highly effective BUT superheated steam becomes explosive insofar as if any significant amount gets trapped under the oil puddle it will "explode" or pop violently. Drop a drop of water into hot grease and you will see. Same type of thing, however, with each micro explosion of the steam through the oil puddle a pronounced quantity of oil would collect in the condenser immediately aftert the steam condensed.

I predicted that since my 250 ml flask(s) could not take this type of abuse (cracking mostly adjacent to injection port) and since the internal popping had a distinct and unfriendly sound, that larger vessels would likely fail immediately with hot steam and oil going all over.

The set up shown STILL introduced enough thermal stress immediately under the point of steam injection so as to start a crack in the flask, destroying its usefulness. I believe my error was in placing the tube intentionally at the low point and in contact with the glass boiling vessel. It could not handle the thermal stress very well either with such a hot point being created. So the setup now injects the extract on top of the incoming steam injector which sits well up off the glass bottom. So far so good.

Technically the boiling point of any liquid at any given pressure is constant. I do not believe this process alters the boiling temp of either. The steam as shown I measure at 98C. The oil puddle is not that much higher and is not of its own accord undergoing a phase change from liquid into gas as the term "boiling" suggests. It is really more a matter of the oil becoming entrained in a flow of gas (water vapor) and being deposited at the point the water condenses. It makes sense that the faster the gas is flowing, as in superheated steam that more oil can be entrained. However it still takes a huge volume of water to distill over a small quantity of oil, and I suspect that if the oil is otherwise not entrained inside non-volitle plant material that superheating the steam will only accellerate the process at the expense of additional energy being expended and stronger equipment to handle it.
 

BobCajun

Well-Known Member
Glad you posted here, you'll save some people a lot of pointless trouble. Super-heated steam is right out then. So how long and how much steam does it take, say per gram of product?
 

dabbindylan

Well-Known Member
@eugeneoregon. Thanks for sharing this is interesting i always assumed that steam was lost cause because of thc insoluble in water. So i was under the impression when water was introduced the thc would not bind to any water molecules but be forced away from water binding to glass or any surface it could...ill be trying this process with saftey goggles on fursure hot oil with water sounds dangerous.. How are u extracting the oil ur then doing you co distillation process on?? Bho. Rso. Did i miss sumthing?? A video on your recent process would be life changing to some cancer patients in colorado
 

eugeneoregon

Active Member
@eugeneoregon. Thanks for sharing this is interesting i always assumed that steam was lost cause because of thc insoluble in water. So i was under the impression when water was introduced the thc would not bind to any water molecules but be forced away from water binding to glass or any surface it could...ill be trying this process with saftey goggles on fursure hot oil with water sounds dangerous.. How are u extracting the oil ur then doing you co distillation process on?? Bho. Rso. Did i miss sumthing?? A video on your recent process would be life changing to some cancer patients in colorado
I do not extract. In Oregon it takes a license to extract using supercritical fluid extraction otherwise you risk a felony. Besides, there are SO MANY folks extracting that it would really be a duplication of effort for me. I purchase bulk extract legally or it is gifted to me (I have been a patient for 8+ years and know many folks). Even if it were legal for me to extract I would not bother because I could not possibly gear up to do it on a personal level and be as cost effective as just obtaining it from others.
 

eugeneoregon

Active Member
@eugeneoregon. Thanks for sharing this is interesting i always assumed that steam was lost cause because of thc insoluble in water. So i was under the impression when water was introduced the thc would not bind to any water molecules but be forced away from water binding to glass or any surface it could...ill be trying this process with saftey goggles on fursure hot oil with water sounds dangerous.. How are u extracting the oil ur then doing you co distillation process on?? Bho. Rso. Did i miss sumthing?? A video on your recent process would be life changing to some cancer patients in colorado
Great question about the ratios needed. This can be computed I am told if a person knows the parameters of the volitile product. However, I went to public school so I do not know of such things....lol! In the video I used a 250 ml flask for the steam generator and it processed about an ounce of extract with a little left over. So my guestimate based on experience is about a 10:1 ratio of water to oil extract is used to process. If you try it, at first you will not see a thing. Patience is key. Smell the distillate and you will know it is working. Once the THC begins to come over, after the pinene, you will notice an almost fog like buildup in the condenser. This is the target. That fog like white buildup will grow rapidly and you will then be witnessing the condensation of THC oil onto the glass as the water vapor condenses. After initial visual indication of the oil presents itself the process of oil collecting accellerates. Remember to run HOT water through the Liebig condenser because the oil will hold up completely in the condenser if you run it cold.

For reference, one milliliter of extract is almost exactly one gram (in theory one milliliter of extract is a bit less than a gram). With water the weight is exactly one gram.
 

dabbindylan

Well-Known Member
@eugeneoregon. But what type of oil are you starting with to distill...have you tried steam extraction with raw plant materials?? Why are you distilling a full spectrum oil i was told that terpine content helps thc pass thru blood brain barrier to better medicate. Also terpines like alpha pinene are carcinogenic when concentrated are you throwing away terpines or using in seprate extraction methods such as azatropic distillation
 

dabbindylan

Well-Known Member
Is the oil you get low potency??? Im just wondering why u go thru the effort. Im currently try to make a steam set using steel cause glass and oil scare me
 

BobCajun

Well-Known Member
My take from this is that after the pinene goes over and you see a foggy condensate it's time to change receiving flasks and collect the cannabinoids. Thanks for reporting this. You have contributed greatly to the cause of producing quality extracts without the use of dangerous solvents or even vacuum or pressure. I had no idea that cannabinoids were steam distillable. Weird how it's not more commonly mentioned.

There's actually microwave steam distillers around, for essential oils. I wonder if there's any possibilities there?
 

eugeneoregon

Active Member
@eugeneoregon. But what type of oil are you starting with to distill...have you tried steam extraction with raw plant materials?? Why are you distilling a full spectrum oil i was told that terpine content helps thc pass thru blood brain barrier to better medicate. Also terpines like alpha pinene are carcinogenic when concentrated are you throwing away terpines or using in seprate extraction methods such as azatropic distillation
I use this product as medicine which has replaced four drugs prescribed for PTSD, and two life shortening doses of opiates (morphine and hydrocodone) prescribed for me by the Veterans Affairs folks. I no longer use any of those and have switched entirely to medicating by extract which is far and away superior in multiple respects.

However, the dosages that I need for complete relief can be described as a dense fog like vapor that I inhale deeply, inflating my lungs fully. Even top notch dispensary extract contains a lot of terpene and it is especially the pinene that I have become most sensitized to. The limonene not so much, but then again my vaporizer is the final fractioning device insofar as it is set below the boiling point of limonene (typically) but above that of thc, so I naturally am exposed to less. Pinene boils before thc and I get the whole thing.

If I do not remove the majority of the pinene then I simply cannot inhale very deeply or very often without coughing a lung up lol. Plus, like so many growers are discovering, upon repeated exposure to pinene I have become sensitized to it. When I vape or smoke extract without removing the pinene my eyes water to thepoint of steady tears and my nose snots up. yuck.

As far as terps go, the only medical claims that I have read are more or less unsubstantiated. My theory is that terps help the medicine penetrate the mucous layer of the lungs which accounts for a good "rush" with heavily terped extract, but I believe the rush is typical of any experience when inhaling vaporized hydrocarbons. Terps are hydrocarbons. THC is not. Back as a youth "huffing" hydrocarbons from glue was a fad that produced a nearly identical rush, though with a headache after. It is noteworthy in any discussion of terps to note that the MSDS sheet for the terpenes (Volitile Organic Compounds which are considered pollutants or solvents in other industry) specify to avoid exposure. My hunch is that the beneficial medical effects claims can mostly be traced back to good marketing by extractors more often than traced back to verifiable data.

The short answer on why I remove part of the spectrum from extracts is that I cannot medicate heavily without doing so, and trust me, if necessity is the mother of invention, then pain is surely the father.
 

dabbindylan

Well-Known Member
Not all voc are pollutants. Certain esters and terps like d-limonene are proven to be good for u in low doses preventing neural disease and fighting cancer... A-pinene i can agree is not desirable in extract its harsh and a harmful voc as u put it
 
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