Led Temps - Air vs Leaf Surface

DukeFluke

Well-Known Member
I too have noticed things like this growing in a cold basement in the winter. I have been looking into both base board heating and or sub flooring my areas. Each comes with costs as far as new breakers and potentially a new box being installed and or losing precious inches of height. I have started to steer against seedling mats but I bet one hooked up to an inkbird sensor or similar might work? But even then you are only getting a reading on one particular plant.
Don't worry about it. You'll get even temps across your floor. You won't lose much in the way of height either. Maybe an inch total. And no need for breakers unless you're heating commercial sized floors.

You can go two ways about it

Google `decoupling membrane` and` xps sheets` all you need is 6mm unless you're dealing with ice flooring. Push the boat out and get 10mm if you want. Still only a centimetre.

Put your sheets down then your membrane, takes all of 5 minutes.
Lay your heating cable into the membrane notches ( how close you space the cable determines the watts per square metre/yard, I find 100w to easily get and maintain the bottom of my pots to 27c, which translates to middle rootzone temps of a nice 20c+ ) Then put yourself some basic covering over it. I use flexi trays and stick them over some boards.

Or you can get the underfloor heating which rolls out as a mat. Just roll that out over your insulation boards and your trays on top.

You can even skip the insulation boards altogether, although you'll lose efficiency of the system, but it'll still get the job done. If your floors are very cold, don't skip it.

Then hook your plug up to your inkbird and get a thermometer (I use a food probe) and put it into the middle of the rootball. Set your inkbird probe under the pot and then to whatever temp it takes to keep the centre nice and warm.

Depending on your space, it can be a 5 minute job. If you're in a tent, it goes down in seconds.
In winter, it's the best upgrade you can make to your environment. Simple as that.
 

HydroKid239

Well-Known Member
730nm is not IR heat. It is photosynthetic active more than directly converted to heat by a good bit.

Need to get into the 800+nm to start getting direct surface heating. And there will not be a day ever that those nm are incorporated into a "LED spectrum" as you called it. 730nm...ya, but its not heat just a deeper red.

Only difference between LED and HPS in reference to VPD is the delta between leaf an ambient. The goal is still the same internal leaf temp and pressure deficit.

Each board contains:
-3 x SemiLEDs 390-400nm LED
-3 x SemiLEDs 400-410nm LED
-2 x SemiLEDs 410-420nm LED
-1 x SemiLEDs 420-430nm LED
-3 x CREE XP-E2 Blue LED
-9 x CREE XP-G3 Photo Red LED
-4 x CREE XP-E2 Far Red LED
-2 x SemiLEDs Infrared 840-870nm LED

Mass Medical Strains Supplement Bar
 

Southernontariogrower

Well-Known Member
i have found that my tent has been running at 90, with 70-80rh, even up to 85fh l will lower rh if i start running into problems. None so far. Im giving co2 during light and flushing tent during lights out, or hour b4. As rh rises after LO. And i dont want a rainstorm in my tent, been there done that. So far so good, havent had a problem this grow. Will see if i get to finish line or not. Always used to fighting heat and humidity, now embracing it. Hope this helps. Please remember this works for me, might not for everybody.
 

loco41

Well-Known Member
So where does all this data land us as far as a solution for the home grower? And more specifically a home grower like the OP (and myself), that can't get the temps up much higher?
So I've got a couple seedlings i started recently and had pretty low temps as well, around 74-76 for a first few days to a week. I decided add my 24watt t5 uvb bulb and start running it during the 17/7 schedule I'm using right now. I figured that would add some heat for sure and was curious about using it full cycle as far as the added uvb/uva to the spectrum from the beginning. I like the "full spectrum" of the arcadia 6%uvb bulbs as I'm sure they add, if nothing else just a small amount, some 730+nm to the spectrum as well. I haven't used the uvb bulb yet in any previous grows, so hopefully it all goes smoothly.
 

meangreengrowinmachine

Well-Known Member
Don't worry about it. You'll get even temps across your floor. You won't lose much in the way of height either. Maybe an inch total. And no need for breakers unless you're heating commercial sized floors.

You can go two ways about it

Google `decoupling membrane` and` xps sheets` all you need is 6mm unless you're dealing with ice flooring. Push the boat out and get 10mm if you want. Still only a centimetre.

Put your sheets down then your membrane, takes all of 5 minutes.
Lay your heating cable into the membrane notches ( how close you space the cable determines the watts per square metre/yard, I find 100w to easily get and maintain the bottom of my pots to 27c, which translates to middle rootzone temps of a nice 20c+ ) Then put yourself some basic covering over it. I use flexi trays and stick them over some boards.

Or you can get the underfloor heating which rolls out as a mat. Just roll that out over your insulation boards and your trays on top.

You can even skip the insulation boards altogether, although you'll lose efficiency of the system, but it'll still get the job done. If your floors are very cold, don't skip it.

Then hook your plug up to your inkbird and get a thermometer (I use a food probe) and put it into the middle of the rootball. Set your inkbird probe under the pot and then to whatever temp it takes to keep the centre nice and warm.

Depending on your space, it can be a 5 minute job. If you're in a tent, it goes down in seconds.
In winter, it's the best upgrade you can make to your environment. Simple as that.
Dang great info thanks man!
 

meangreengrowinmachine

Well-Known Member
So I've got a couple seedlings i started recently and had pretty low temps as well, around 74-76 for a first few days to a week. I decided add my 24watt t5 uvb bulb and start running it during the 17/7 schedule I'm using right now. I figured that would add some heat for sure and was curious about using it full cycle as far as the added uvb/uva to the spectrum from the beginning. I like the "full spectrum" of the arcadia 6%uvb bulbs as I'm sure they add, if nothing else just a small amount, some 730+nm to the spectrum as well. I haven't used the uvb bulb yet in any previous grows, so hopefully it all goes smoothly.
I was looking at those also. Still torn on which direction I want to go.
 

ComfortCreator

Well-Known Member
I am not creative but a good listener and reader.

As I learned from hydro folks, in soil I now grow with my fabric pots on plastic lifters, which are inside saucers. This elevates the plants off the cold conductive floor, provides air underneath the pot which help prevent rot, and makes removing any runoff simple with a vac or turkey baster.

No doubt the root temps matter. If temps in the room are low and the pots on a cold conductive floor, they will grow slower and potentially be deficient if pushed. Too high a temp i.e. CO2 growers need cooler night temps otherwise O2 absorption can be an issue.
 

meangreengrowinmachine

Well-Known Member
I am not creative but a good listener and reader.

As I learned from hydro folks, in soil I now grow with my fabric pots on plastic lifters, which are inside saucers. This elevates the plants off the cold conductive floor, provides air underneath the pot which help prevent rot, and makes removing any runoff simple with a vac or turkey baster.

No doubt the root temps matter. If temps in the room are low and the pots on a cold conductive floor, they will grow slower and potentially be deficient if pushed. Too high a temp i.e. CO2 growers need cooler night temps otherwise O2 absorption can be an issue.
I have mine currently on some plastic shelving that just has the legs removed to keep them off the cement itself.
 

HippieDudeRon

Well-Known Member

Each board contains:
-3 x SemiLEDs 390-400nm LED
-3 x SemiLEDs 400-410nm LED
-2 x SemiLEDs 410-420nm LED
-1 x SemiLEDs 420-430nm LED
-3 x CREE XP-E2 Blue LED
-9 x CREE XP-G3 Photo Red LED
-4 x CREE XP-E2 Far Red LED
-2 x SemiLEDs Infrared 840-870nm LED

Mass Medical Strains Supplement Bar
Cool find. But I'll stick to my statement. You're not going to see true IR heat in LED fixtures. That is the biggest waste in lighting history yet. Literally throwing money out the window.
Increasing ambient is free, and puts the environment into a more photosynthetically active range. Rather than waste money on light to counter your cooling.
Not to mention the reliability at temperature of those LED...similar to UV leds in that regards. the LM80 isn't even close to market ready.

730 near IR...ALL DAY LONG BABY. Great additions to any basic led fixtures spectrum.
Over 800nm... burble is a more effective use of led, money, and energy.

And the last bit is the actual marketing by companies...how are they supposed to market wasted energy. Even with a good old wordsmithing.... wasted energy, shorter lifespans, no scientific data to support its need...



The most photosynthetically active ambient temp is 86F/30C. with a leaf temp delta in the 2-5* range. That is the goal every one is after. Favorring the cooler side of it as the drop off is less steep on the cooler side of that.
 
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1212ham

Well-Known Member
I heard IR diodes are inefficient and I doubt they put out much compared to HPS/CMH?
Just put a temp probe in the Hempy bucket, about 1-1.5 hours after feeding it's 74F with 82 air temp. Leaf temp is 3-4 F under air temp.
My light stays at the top and plants are on a shelf that is lowered as needed.
 
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meangreengrowinmachine

Well-Known Member
Cool find. But I'll stick to my statement. You're not going to see true IR heat in LED fixtures. That is the biggest waste in lighting history yet. Literally throwing money out the window.
Increasing ambient is free, and puts the environment into a more photosynthetically active range. Rather than waste money on light to counter your cooling.
Not to mention the reliability at temperature of those LED...similar to UV leds in that regards. the LM80 isn't even close to market ready.

730 near IR...ALL DAY LONG BABY. Great additions to any basic led fixtures spectrum.
Over 800nm... burble is a more effective use of led, money, and energy.

And the last bit is the actual marketing by companies...how are they supposed to market wasted energy. Even with a good old wordsmithing.... wasted energy, shorter lifespans, no scientific data to support its need...



The most photosynthetically active ambient temp is 86F/30C. with a leaf temp delta in the 2-5* range. That is the goal every one is after. Favorring the cooler side of it as the drop off is less steep on the cooler side of that.
A healthy grow room at 86f.... i can see with Co2 but otherwise that is far to hot.
 

meangreengrowinmachine

Well-Known Member
Cool find. But I'll stick to my statement. You're not going to see true IR heat in LED fixtures. That is the biggest waste in lighting history yet. Literally throwing money out the window.
Increasing ambient is free, and puts the environment into a more photosynthetically active range. Rather than waste money on light to counter your cooling.
Not to mention the reliability at temperature of those LED...similar to UV leds in that regards. the LM80 isn't even close to market ready.

730 near IR...ALL DAY LONG BABY. Great additions to any basic led fixtures spectrum.
Over 800nm... burble is a more effective use of led, money, and energy.

And the last bit is the actual marketing by companies...how are they supposed to market wasted energy. Even with a good old wordsmithing.... wasted energy, shorter lifespans, no scientific data to support its need...



The most photosynthetically active ambient temp is 86F/30C. with a leaf temp delta in the 2-5* range. That is the goal every one is after. Favorring the cooler side of it as the drop off is less steep on the cooler side of that.
So in your opinion something like an Emerson effect board using just some far reds would be helpful but not uv? Are you saying not uv at all or not these led uv diodes specifically? How about the bulbs someone was mentioning above? I know there is a ton of debate on if uv supplements are even doing anything at all in general.
 

HippieDudeRon

Well-Known Member
So in your opinion something like an Emerson effect board using just some far reds would be helpful but not uv? Are you saying not uv at all or not these led uv diodes specifically? How about the bulbs someone was mentioned above? I know there is a ton of debate on if uv supplements are even doing anything at all in general.
I can't comment on UV supplementations much myself. Only done it myself a few times and nothing controlled. Reptile bulbs when I died.
My reference to UV LEDs for fixture manufactures was towards their life expectancy. They are significantly lower than more traditional colors likes, whites, blues, reds.
Now days with BPAR(biological PAR...380nm-780nm) starting to be acknowledged equal or more so to standard PAR(400-700nm), manufactures will use the extended range it offers, but very unlikely to step outside of it till something beyond major comes forward to show it worthy.

Based on all available both evidence and technology wise, I think there is that there is more to be gained from the extended BPAR range as a grower from 700-780nm then there is to be gained from 380-400nmn.
 
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