Manchin

Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Getting back to the idea of punishing the parents for the bad choice of having a kid. Two things come to mind about that.

First, the US births have declined below replacement rate. Good for the planet, bad for the economy, so I'm not all that bothered when I see a large family.

Second, first rate economies are information and knowledge-based ones. Typical high school education doesn't cut it. College graduates are not cheap:
$1.1 Million: Cost to Raise a Child, from Birth through College

business.time.com

$1.1 Million: Cost to Raise a Child, from Birth through College | TIME.com

A simply hilarious and insightful quote: "It is commonly said that buying a house is the biggest purchase most Americans will ever make. Having a baby is like buying six houses. Except that they don't increase in value, you can't sell them and after 16 years they'll probably say they hate you.
business.time.com

This society must choose. Does the pool of college educated kids come from parents able to sustain that cost or does it come from the pool of most talented kids?
 
smokinrav

smokinrav

Well-Known Member
For me 50k a year x2 then. But both mine got full ride scholarships, my 20 year old at ISU studying music, my 19 year old at BU studying micro-fucking-biology. Who's child are you?
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
smokinrav said:
For me 50k a year x2 then. But both mine got full ride scholarships, my 20 year old at ISU studying music, my 19 year old at BU studying micro-fucking-biology. Who's child are you?
Click to expand...
I look at my kids and wonder the same. My oldest is like a deep pool of water. The younger burns hot. The younger one is more like me. The older is nothing like either of us. We wonder if he was switched up at the hospital.

The total cost listed above is the total and not the parent's share.

My parents never could figure out how they came to raise a kid with a degree in biochemistry.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Roger A. Shrubber said:
ok, it's EVERYONES responsibility to take care of the children of irresponsible people who cannot practice birth control...i give up...not worth fighting about...
Click to expand...
I didn't say that.

From a completely practical point of view, we need to raise kids who can thrive in today's society or our future ends when we can no longer work. That means a pool of kids today will have to compete with the world's best and brightest, a pool of kids who can educate the next generation, a pool of workers who can make, build or grow world class products and so forth. We need cleaners, drivers, counter clerks, laborers and ag workes too. We don't need mooches, thieves, con artists and street drug dealers. Mostly, that last pool comes from people who fail to make it into the groups I named earlier.

It takes an education to succeed today. It takes the ability to learn too. Kids who don't have food or housing security or are harmed by the environment they grow up in, they are less able to learn and less able to make it into the earning classes that I described. So, punish the child for their parent's bad choices is a death spiral for kids trapped in it. We need those kids to succeed. This isn't an argument of morality or me "shoulding" on you. Just saying kids can't make it on their own. If the parents aren't able then society needs to intervene, for it's own sake if not for the child's.
 
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Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Getting back to the idea of punishing the parents for the bad choice of having a kid. Two things come to mind about that.

First, the US births have declined below replacement rate. Good for the planet, bad for the economy, so I'm not all that bothered when I see a large family.

Second, first rate economies are information and knowledge-based ones. Typical high school education doesn't cut it. College graduates are not cheap:
$1.1 Million: Cost to Raise a Child, from Birth through College

business.time.com

$1.1 Million: Cost to Raise a Child, from Birth through College | TIME.com

A simply hilarious and insightful quote: "It is commonly said that buying a house is the biggest purchase most Americans will ever make. Having a baby is like buying six houses. Except that they don't increase in value, you can't sell them and after 16 years they'll probably say they hate you.
business.time.com

This society must choose. Does the pool of college educated kids come from parents able to sustain that cost or does it come from the pool of most talented kids?
Click to expand...
how about we reform the educational system, and make community colleges free to all
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Roger A. Shrubber said:
how about we reform the educational system, and make community colleges free to all
Click to expand...
I'm all for it.

Oh, wait, 50 Republicans and 2 Democrats in the senate just killed the community college part.

California's community colleges were free to attend until Prop 13 (1980?) killed the funding and the Republican take-over of the government stripped away any chance of alternatives to replace those funds.

They still had a good community college system when I went to one but it wasn't free. But I saw the remnant of what it was. Kind of sucked to see it decline even more after I went on to finish my four year degree. That was the genesis of my antipathy toward the GOP.
 
Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
I didn't say that.

From a completely practical point of view, we need to raise kids who can thrive in today's society or our future ends when we can no longer work. That means a pool of kids today will have to compete with the world's best and brightest, a pool of kids who can educate the next generation, a pool of workers who can make, build or grow world class products and so forth. We need cleaners, drivers, counter clerks, laborers and ag workes too. We don't need mooches, thieves, con artists and street drug dealers. Mostly, that last pool comes from people who fail to make it into the groups I named earlier.

It takes an education to succeed today. It takes the ability to learn too. Kids who don't have food or housing security or are harmed by the environment they grow up in, they are less able to learn and less able to make it into the earning classes that I described. So, punish the child for their parent's bad choices is a death spiral for kids trapped in it. We need those kids to succeed. This isn't an argument of morality or me "shoulding" on you. Just saying kids can't make it on their own. If the parents aren't able then society needs to intervene, for it's own sake if not for the child's.
Click to expand...
i don't want to come off like an unempathetic asshole, i have nothing against children in general, and nothing at all against kids living in poverty, i hope they all get a break, a chance to take. i hope they all have the opportunity to have families of their own, and kids of their own.
i do not like the method the government has chosen to "help" people...and i'm not wild about their criteria of who deserves help.
i am a very independent person, i do not ask for help until i have exhausted every idea in my head and every muscle in my back trying to do things for myself. perhaps i hold others to too high a standard. i feel that it belittles people when others step in and do things for them, carry them, as if they're saying "we know you failed, we'll do it for you...failure...." some people think i don't like to help other people, but i will if asked. the reason i don't jump in and volunteer is that i don't want to imply that i think they can't do it for themselves....
so to me, the entire concept of government aid is first and foremost, an insulting smack in the face
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Roger A. Shrubber said:
i don't want to come off like an unempathetic asshole, i have nothing against children in general, and nothing at all against kids living in poverty, i hope they all get a break, a chance to take. i hope they all have the opportunity to have families of their own, and kids of their own.
i do not like the method the government has chosen to "help" people...and i'm not wild about their criteria of who deserves help.
i am a very independent person, i do not ask for help until i have exhausted every idea in my head and every muscle in my back trying to do things for myself. perhaps i hold others to too high a standard. i feel that it belittles people when others step in and do things for them, carry them, as if they're saying "we know you failed, we'll do it for you...failure...." some people think i don't like to help other people, but i will if asked. the reason i don't jump in and volunteer is that i don't want to imply that i think they can't do it for themselves....
so to me, the entire concept of government aid is first and foremost, an insulting smack in the face
Click to expand...
I'll say it again.

Our society has to choose whether our best and brightest are selected from the pool of parents with the means to provide the best opportunity for their kids or from the most talented.

It's not the same group. I can attest to that. My blue collar roots did not provide enough support to get me to the point where I could compete with the blue noses. I got a chance at a good education with help from my parents, the state and hard work on my part. Once I got out into the workforce, I was dominant. I respect the effort and time needed to achieve a PhD but they are not all created equal. There are plenty who thought that shingle gave them privilege. Not with me it didn't. If they got in my way, they learned not to.

That said, I chose to work in the high tech industry where billions are made or lost depending on the people who make the decisions. The BS goes out the door when problems arise. I was good at problem solving. Blue noses, for the most part, aren't.

I get your complaint. But punish people? I don't see how it solves anything. I had my eyes opened up recently when my youngest started to fail at school when they went to remote learning. It was a fucking disaster - spring, 2020. I took classes in education that summer, learned about newer ideas. The most useful, new to me, idea was that a kid will do well when they can. It's called collaborative learning as opposed to forced learning.

What I hear from you is the old style, where if a kid is failing, they must be forced to do better. I'll tell you what, that won't work with my younger kid. Collaborative learning meant my taking time to understand what was in his way and removing the obstacle. I can't say I was much good at it but that approach made me a partner. In turn it calmed the kid down, got him engaged and thinking about why he wasn't getting up in time for class or paying attention to assignments. It put him in charge of his education and that has smoothed things out. He wants to succeed. He was feeling pushed and pushed back. I didn't give up, I kept at it but I had to gain some new tools.

That way of approaching people's difficulties extends farther than just education. Why is it that people are making "bad choices". What is in the way of making better ones? Why get angry and punish people when that creates more problems than it solves?
 
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Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
I'll say it again.

Our society has to choose whether our best and brightest are selected from the pool of parents with the means to provide the best opportunity for their kids or from the most talented.

It's not the same group. I can attest to that. My blue collar roots did not provide enough support to get me to the point where I could compete with the blue noses. I got a chance at a good education with help from my parents, the state and hard work on my part. Once I got out into the workforce, I was dominant. I respect the effort and time needed to achieve a PhD but they are not all created equal. There are plenty who thought that shingle gave them privilege. Not with me it didn't. If they got in my way, they learned not to.

That said, I chose to work in the high tech industry where billions are made or lost depending on the people who make the decisions. The BS goes out the door when problems arise. I was good at problem solving. Blue noses, for the most part, aren't.

I get your complaint. But punish people? I don't see how it solves anything. I had my eyes opened up recently when my youngest started to fail at school when they went to remote learning. It was a fucking disaster - spring, 2020. I took classes in education that summer, learned about newer ideas. The most useful, new to me, idea was that a kid will do well when they can. It's called collaborative learning as opposed to forced learning.

What I hear from you is the old style, where if a kid is failing, they must be forced to do better. I'll tell you what, that won't work with my younger kid. Collaborative learning meant my taking time to understand what was in his way and removing the obstacle. I can't say I was much good at it but that approach made me a partner. In turn it calmed the kid down, got him engaged and thinking about why he wasn't getting up in time for class or paying attention to assignments. It put him in charge of his education and that has smoothed things out. He wants to succeed. He was feeling pushed and pushed back. I didn't give up, I kept at it but I had to gain some new tools.

That way of approaching people's difficulties extends farther than just education. Why is it that people are making "bad choices". What is in the way of making better ones? Why get angry and punish people when that creates more problems than it solves?
Click to expand...
why is expecting people to not have children they can't be financially responsible for "punishing them" ? shouldn't one of the prime criteria for making the choice to procreate be "can i afford to give this child a decent life?"
it has nothing to do with the children themselves, or their academic performance, they didn't ask their parents to bring them into the world without the wherewithal to support them...that is solely on the parents...
so until the "system" can be fixed, the status quo remains intact...
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Roger A. Shrubber said:
why is expecting people to not have children they can't be financially responsible for "punishing them" ? shouldn't one of the prime criteria for making the choice to procreate be "can i afford to give this child a decent life?"
it has nothing to do with the children themselves, or their academic performance, they didn't ask their parents to bring them into the world without the wherewithal to support them...that is solely on the parents...
so until the "system" can be fixed, the status quo remains intact...
Click to expand...
Right now, we are both pissing in the wind because the most common sense solutions are blocked by the nonsense party.

this:

"why is expecting people to not have children they can't be financially responsible for"

Go ahead and expect away. Then expect to be angry they don't live up to your expectations. There isn't one cause of poverty in this country. What are you expecting? That teens make better choices? That women and men marry for life? That men stop beating their wives (I expect that too, sadly I'm disappointed)? That people not lose their job? That people should not get addicted to heroin or oxy? That employers should pay full time workers wages that meet the cost of living?

When any of those expectations aren't met, adults are more likely to end up in poverty. The child goes along for the ride. What are you expecting, really? That reality should bend to your will?

This thread between us began when you said you objected to states or fed providing a small portion of support to low income parents. Most of them work their asses off. What do you suggest be done?
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Roger A. Shrubber said:
why is expecting people to not have children they can't be financially responsible for "punishing them" ? shouldn't one of the prime criteria for making the choice to procreate be "can i afford to give this child a decent life?"
it has nothing to do with the children themselves, or their academic performance, they didn't ask their parents to bring them into the world without the wherewithal to support them...that is solely on the parents...
so until the "system" can be fixed, the status quo remains intact...
Click to expand...
I would point to China to see what happens when you have a low birth rate. All those people you rely on to do everything around you every day (like work on the electrical grid, repair roads, fix shit, etc) all are kids of someone. It just makes sense to get every child as good of a start in life as possible.

The reasoning that people should have to toil because of (insert reason) is not a reason that the government spending should benefit the wealthiest far more than it does the rest of our society.

Fogdog said:
Right now, we are both pissing in the wind because the most common sense solutions are blocked by the nonsense party.

this:

"why is expecting people to not have children they can't be financially responsible for"

Go ahead and expect away. Then expect to be angry they don't live up to your expectations. There isn't one cause of poverty in this country. What are you expecting? That teens make better choices? That women and men marry for life? That men stop beating their wives (I expect that too, sadly I'm disappointed)? That people not lose their job? That people should not get addicted to heroin or oxy? That employers should pay full time workers wages that meet the cost of living?

When any of those expectations aren't met, adults are more likely to end up in poverty. The child goes along for the ride. What are you expecting, really? That reality should bend to your will?

This thread between us began when you said you objected to states or fed providing a small portion of support to low income parents. Most of them work their asses off. What do you suggest be done?
Click to expand...
Very true.
 
Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
What do you suggest be done?
Click to expand...
i suggest employers pay their workers a fair living wage, enforced by law if necessary.
i suggest that child care should be free to low income families
i suggest that education be fair and equal to all children, no matter their social or ethnic background
i suggest that we repair our sick broken society at least enough that people can know if they're willing to work, all their basic needs can be met
and finally, i suggest that we quit talking about this, because none of the things either of us suggest means shit, until we take care of a whole slew of other problems first.
i feel how i feel, and i am aware that my feeling mean absolutely dick to anyone but me...the system is what it is, a sick broken beast, and it'll be a huge job to first kill it, and then an even bigger job to resurrect it as something that works for everyone
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
I'll say it again.

Our society has to choose whether our best and brightest are selected from the pool of parents with the means to provide the best opportunity for their kids or from the most talented.

It's not the same group. I can attest to that. My blue collar roots did not provide enough support to get me to the point where I could compete with the blue noses. I got a chance at a good education with help from my parents, the state and hard work on my part. Once I got out into the workforce, I was dominant. I respect the effort and time needed to achieve a PhD but they are not all created equal. There are plenty who thought that shingle gave them privilege. Not with me it didn't. If they got in my way, they learned not to.

That said, I chose to work in the high tech industry where billions are made or lost depending on the people who make the decisions. The BS goes out the door when problems arise. I was good at problem solving. Blue noses, for the most part, aren't.

I get your complaint. But punish people? I don't see how it solves anything. I had my eyes opened up recently when my youngest started to fail at school when they went to remote learning. It was a fucking disaster - spring, 2020. I took classes in education that summer, learned about newer ideas. The most useful, new to me, idea was that a kid will do well when they can. It's called collaborative learning as opposed to forced learning.

What I hear from you is the old style, where if a kid is failing, they must be forced to do better. I'll tell you what, that won't work with my younger kid. Collaborative learning meant my taking time to understand what was in his way and removing the obstacle. I can't say I was much good at it but that approach made me a partner. In turn it calmed the kid down, got him engaged and thinking about why he wasn't getting up in time for class or paying attention to assignments. It put him in charge of his education and that has smoothed things out. He wants to succeed. He was feeling pushed and pushed back. I didn't give up, I kept at it but I had to gain some new tools.

That way of approaching people's difficulties extends farther than just education. Why is it that people are making "bad choices". What is in the way of making better ones? Why get angry and punish people when that creates more problems than it solves?
Click to expand...
Education is a specialty, an evolving one like all the others and they've gotten quite good at it these past few decades. Most parents either don't care about or despise teachers and republican politicians treat them like shit. However there is a teacher shortage crises and it's getting worse, in some places the national guard are teaching classes and demographically speaking the teacher shortage looks dire in the coming years. A lot of people recently became familiar with home schooling and remote learning, how'd that work out?
 
Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
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