Methodical, scientific approach to nutrients and nutrient formulations discussion

Botanicare's CNS17 line will do you right if you are looking for a hydroponic coco fert...and the pH most likely doesn't up .2 everyday LOL. I simply couldn't have that I need something stable that I can leave for many days. My res is stable doesn't budge for what seems to be weeks.

YouGrowBoy said:

My head is spinning. We are here to learn and share better grow techniques. From 14 pages of text here's what I see.

UB: Dyna-Gro is a good/cheap solution for hydro grows.
FatMan: Dyna-Gro is barely satifactory as a hydro nute, but if you are so inclined, you could mix your own nutes (I see no off the shelf recs. from Fatman.)

The two smartest/most experienced guys on this thread have nearly complete opposite POV's.

I know I am very confused from Fatman's University level lectures. Probably beacuse my degree is in communications not chemistry. All this tech talk is difficult for us right brainers. Have some compassion for us, we excuse you for not understanding the meaning behind cinema or literature.

What is a laid back hippy without a math/chem apptitude to do?

Many of us are looking for simple/straight forward common sense answers. We're not stoopid we're just not chemically inclined.

So, while UB reccomends Dyna-Gro for inert hydro, (with a pretty good argument from Fatman why not to use it, and a great rebuttal from UB why Fatman's argument is invalid. I'm so confused) what do you reccomend Fatman for those of us that don't want to mix from scratch or buy over priced hydro store food?

YGB

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what kind of setup you are using is going to determine what kind of specs you can go with on commercially available mixes.

for example if you are recycling your nutrients as in an ebb/flow system you have a set of parameters (alkalinity and salt buildup) that are not a problem if youre draining to waste.

the main point of the thread is that off the shelf bottles are not only obscenely expensive, they are often not even very good for mj applications and that folks with a little diy creativity and motivation can do far better, whether you mix your own formulas or buy a bag of commercial water soluble nutrients.

clydefrog said:

what kind of setup you are using is going to determine what kind of specs you can go with on commercially available mixes.

for example if you are recycling your nutrients as in an ebb/flow system you have a set of parameters (alkalinity and salt buildup) that are not a problem if youre draining to waste.

the main point of the thread is that off the shelf bottles are not only obscenely expensive, they are often not even very good for mj applications and that folks with a little diy creativity and motivation can do far better, whether you mix your own formulas or buy a bag of commercial water soluble nutrients.

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Good points clyde. RDWC system.

I also think Fatman would argue with you that store nutes are very, very overpriced and not all that well fomulated. But I don't want to speak for him.

I think the point of the thead is that you don't need the high priced nutes and and snake oils. You can do it for less mixing your own (via Fatman)or using the proper lower cost nutes like Dyna-Gro. The big problem with the thread is 1. mixing your own requires sacks of salts and a chem degree, but saves you tons of $$, or
2. Use Dyna-Gro even though it's hybred nute not specialized for hydro or soil.

There are valid arguments here for both but no concensus or middle ground. I'd like to know what nutes UB and Fatman agree on for RDWC.

Remember that when referring to the guaranteed analysis NPK numbers shown on US fertilizer labels, it is usually not an actual elemental value of the phosphorus or the potassium. It is the oxide form P2O5 and K2O value that for what ever reason the fertilizer regulating committees of the world decided to require for NPK labeling. So when using the nutrient calculators are people typing in the elemental value or the percentages listed on the label? Do the calculators do the conversions for you or are you suppose to them before hand?

YouGrowBoy said:

I also think Fatman would argue with you that store nutes are very, very overpriced and not all that well fomulated. But I don't want to speak for him.

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1. i don't argue with fatman. that dude kicks ass and takes names.

2. when you say store nutes are overpriced, if you mean the bottles of liquid fertilizer available at your local grow shop, (dyna-gro included)...then i have no argument. I agree. they totally suck ass.

if however you are talking about dry soluble fertilizers for commercial use such as Jacks, Peters and scotts...they are not overpriced at all. consider you could spend $50 for a 25 lb bag of a complete fertilizer that would last the average recreational grower his entire career, i don't think that's expensive at all.

that's the commercial fertilizer I was talking about. for someone like me who tends to fuck up everything they touch, it's worth paying the extra 20 bucks versus trying to mix up my own shit.

YouGrowBoy said:

Good points clyde. RDWC system.

There are valid arguments here for both but no concensus or middle ground. I'd like to know what nutes UB and Fatman agree on for RDWC.

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good luck with that. one of the problems of nutrient formulation trials is that they are nearly impossible if you are recirculating your nutrients and using tapwater.

for example, lets say you are having a problem with a micronutrient being locked out because your tapwater ph is too high for you to take up much phosphate.

there is no way you can diagnose a problem like that with a simple EC or TDS meter because once you recirculate your nutes, you have no idea what is in that rez any more...how much micros didn't get absorbed for example.

that's why you will find guys like Fatman using a drain to waste system and RO water supplies...because he knows enough about all this shit to tweak his juice when he needs too and he can analyze his situation accurately because he knows exactly what his plants are getting every time that mister kicks on.

DWC is a tough medium to get nutes correct in bro. you kind of have to guess the best you can and try to keep your ppm down.

i'm not being a smartass, i do wish you the best bro but just because one fert worked one time for one guy on one particular strain don't mean it'll be safe for your babies.

This is seriously the most educational thread on this board so far. Honestly, and I don't have enough of the scientific background to be able to discern one way or another, but I must say, fatman made, a really, REALLY amazing, and compelling argument. I studied some speech and forensics, and the last two posts by fatman are CSI, and SCOTUS worthy. Btw fatman, I originally wanted to get into environmental engineering after high school, but life, and my swim scholarship were squashed by Title 9. I did a good deal of work in photovoltaics and building eco-friendly homes for a while, but the work wasn't consistent enough, so I migrated to another field. I really respect your intelligence and the fact that someone with as much experience and education CARES enough to even post on a site like this and share your knowledge. Huge props man, and I hope I'm lucky enough to meet you someday. I'd love to pick your brain for a while.


And UB, no disrespect in any way. You've posted many threads I've gotten a lot of good info from as well, and big props for sharing your knowledge as well. Thanks to both of you.

-McG

A few cursory statements and then I'm off to address my other threads......

1. It is a given that the cannabis community is not happy unless they can make the simple act of growing a weed as confusing, painful, frustrating, and expensive as possible,

2. Fatman, you obviously have a lot of time on your hands. Argue your bullshit with Dyna-Gro, who has designed a food for hydro with ammonium salts - suffer. Your strawman argument ("but it isn't pot!") was addressed on page one, post #2.

Here you are talkin' shit with a bunch of stoners who don't have the frame of reference (much less the courage to) refute a thing you say while such vendors as Dyna-Gro are selling alot of product. Also, all I see from you is rhetoric, where is your garden, past or present? Proof is in the pudding, can you, or have you, raised a plant as healthy, green, and productive as this?





In a nutshell - fellers..... shitcan the aero, DWC, etc., get a frickin' pot of good potting soil (Schultz is fine), start a seed, buy a $5.00 box of 20-20-20 (or something close) and learn how easy growing pot can be. Sheesh!

clydefrog said:

1. i don't argue with fatman. that dude kicks ass and takes names.

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I'm not sure what his motivation is other than trying to confuse alot of people while waffling and talking techie stuff out the corners of his mouth. Check his thread out in the hydroponics/aeroponics forum:

fatman7574 said:

...... Lucas is not an ideal ratio........ It is simply a fair working FAD fertilizer blend that an average hobby grower came up with a few years ago. Of the retail fertilizers out there I think at this time the best bang for your bucks comes from Dyna-Gro Foliage-Pro.

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https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/268790-lucas-formula-recipe-scratch-really-2.html

Horrors! I thought it wasn't the best food for hydro because the ammonium salts were too high and then there was something about drastic pH changes and such.......? Yep, tis confusin' around these parts. I have measured the pH of my water and then taken a reading after adding 1 tsp/gallon of Foliage Pro and found no real impact on pH values. Do da test kiddies!

For starts, only an inorganic acid like sulfuric is gonna produce any degree of change in pH at the prescribed Dyna-Gro rates of 1/4 to 1 tsp./gallon. Figure they are using ammonium phosphate either in the DAP or MAP form for their ammoniacal N source and the miniscule amount of MAP found in 1/2 tsp. of Foliage Pro food would probably be about as much as you could get on a small match head, perhaps less.

You can slice and dice this stuff and do the "what ifs" all day long. There are caveats to everything written, said, and posted Fatman. Take it up with Cornell U. for Christ sakes.

My recommendation is simple - understand NPK values and micros, water quality and how it all relates to pH and alkalinity. I gave you the links to empower YOU to make your own choices based on common horticultural sense. IOW, when someone recommends Liquid Sunshine Karma X as a grow food....are you gonna take that recommendation as fact, or are you gonna analyze the contents of the product (s) and decide for yourself based on YOUR understanding of plant nutrition and the other dynamic forces (water quality) that go along with it?

2. when you say store nutes are overpriced, if you mean the bottles of liquid fertilizer available at your local grow shop, (dyna-gro included)...then i have no argument. I agree. they totally suck ass.

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If you're buying from a hydro store, expect to take it in the hiney ho. You can't compare an overpriced cheesey product like Advanced Shysters or Canna or Humboldt with a value priced product like Dyna-Gro.

if however you are talking about dry soluble fertilizers for commercial use such as Jacks, Peters and scotts...they are not overpriced at all. consider you could spend $50 for a 25 lb bag of a complete fertilizer that would last the average recreational grower his entire career, i don't think that's expensive at all.

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I buy Plantex, same quality and dynamics as Peters, for as low as $26/25 lb., and that is delivered to my door! My supplier does not stock Peters - half a dozen of one 6 of the other.......

that's the commercial fertilizer I was talking about. for someone like me who tends to fuck up everything they touch, it's worth paying the extra 20 bucks versus trying to mix up my own shit.

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Could it be that you're so enamored with techie stuff (aeroponics) that you've lost sight of the forest for the trees?

Good luck,
UB

Mcgician said:

This is seriously the most educational thread on this board so far.

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I'm curious, what have you learned? What will you change regarding plant culture?

UB

UB and Fatman are a tad arrogant but that is a normal trait amongst those in the higher plateau. Seems to be a side effect from confidence. I lern't that ages ago. They both can get as techy as they want, the more the merrier. Thars plenty of less techno info on this site from others. Carry on !!! I'm all ears!!

fatman7574 said:

This discussion is over with as far as I am concerned. My point was well proven while you just created confusin and blew a lot of stale hot air out your blow hole.

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Speaking of "blow holes and stale air". Show me your garden. If you don't have one, then yours is yet another case of bullshit theory and rhetoric.

clydefrog said:

you too.......

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You've admitted to being a fuck up. May your aeroponic drills bring you continuing high tech enlightenment.

UB

I'm loving all the knowledge coming through on this debate; could live without the ad hominem, but okay.

Crusty drawered old man, this research was on the growing of wheat and wheat alone. There is no comparison between wheat and mj.


Now, I wouldn't begin to argue with either of you on nutrient chemistry and formulations but to me, this is where it all goes wrong (the wheat statement). There are multitudes of valid cultivational comparisons between MJ and the vast majority of vascular plants. There is only an exceedingly small subset of plants that actually have "special requirements". Most plants in nature that grow in specialized environments like rock faces or deep swamps do so because they can tolerate those conditions, not because they prefer them, which is a very different thing. Take these same plants and put them in standard grow conditions, and they grow the same or better. What they cannot take is the competition from the zillions of other plants that all want the same space and nutrition, so they're relegated to places other plants can't stand.


Now, I'll let y'all get back to your argument but, MJ growers of all stripes, don't cut yourself off from the mountains of plant research on other plants. MJ shares the same requirements of the vast majority of plants. In fact, if you do your homework on cultivation of other plants, you'll find that all of MJ's "special requirements" actually track back to things we've known about say, sunflowers, for the last 150 years.

Uncle Ben said:

I'm curious, what have you learned? What will you change regarding plant culture?

UB

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Well, for one, I've learned that even when it comes to expert knowledge and opinions in even the field of growing cannabis, that there will always be dissenting opinions. Finding the holy grail in growing it is pretty much what just about any serious grower is constantly trying to achieve, and it seems nothing but good, sound basics in horticulture and spending time with your plants and keeping a keen eye on the details (and logging them) is truly the only way to find out.

As for what I'll change, I don't think I'll be wasting any more money on expensive nutrient supplements that I don't see direct results from. Making sure they have a good solid nutrient solution in the right pH range, air temps and humidity, and plenty of light are what I'll be focusing more on. I'm small time though, so buying things like dehumidifiers and A/C units are still only beneficial in my situation if they can prove they're worth their extra electricity cost. PG&E is raping me already and it will remain to be seen in the future if moving in that direction will ultimately be beneficial enough to offset the additional cost. I'm a perfectionist at heart, so being financially restricted to creating the ultimate growroom is really frustrating. I guess everything has it's pros and cons.

Kriegs said:

Now, I'll let y'all get back to your argument but, MJ growers of all stripes, don't cut yourself off from the mountains of plant research on other plants. MJ shares the same requirements of the vast majority of plants. In fact, if you do your homework on cultivation of other plants, you'll find that all of MJ's "special requirements" actually track back to things we've known about say, sunflowers, for the last 150 years.

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Absolutely. If you have been a gardener of "legal" plants for 10 years you will bring forth so much knowledge and insight to the table when you decide to grow a little pot, it's unbelievable. Most failures I see in forums are from noobs that have never grown a plant before, become enamored with water culture and all its glorious equipment and such, get caught up in MJ vendor bottles biz, and consequently fail. It's knowing what makes a plant tick that counts, not having pissed off $1,000 on equipment, hardware, and bottled supplements.

Mcgician said:

As for what I'll change, I don't think I'll be wasting any more money on expensive nutrient supplements that I don't see direct results from.

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It's a shame that you fell into that trap. We have no way of knowing what is in most "organic" products or supplements. The MJ scammers (AN, Humboldt, Canna, etc.) know the law regarding product disclosure and will play the game to their advantage and of course, to your disadvantage.

UB

fatman7574 said:

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

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I will. You're just wrong. A chemist yes, a botanist.. hardly. And a way over-amped and annoying person, too. Enjoy your life swimming in a sea of ions (well, I guess we all do the swimming part, it's the "enjoy" I suspect you find challenging).

Yah... das boot!

fatman7574 said:

I just deleted all my entries possible and will try to get the moderators to remove the rest of my posts in this thread.

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What a waste. Seriously fatman, there was so much good quantitative fact in here, and it's a shame that losing all those posts now isn't going to be able to help anyone else. This sucks.

Mcgician said:

What a waste. Seriously fatman, there was so much good quantitative fact in here, and it's a shame that losing all those posts now isn't going to be able to help anyone else. This sucks.

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Take it up with UB and the other generalizing soil growing antique flower power dirt growing Kriegs.

If you want you can just punch in quote and copy the posts. I really do not care who gets credit for my written words. I just do not care to be in a thread that is becoming mainly a genearlized soil thread that has little mj specific info especially if the cop out when found making blunderous statements or basis advice on unsound oinions is always just going to be "I can hear it now... "it is not about mj.""
If anyone wants to copy and paste my posts not yet deleted to another thread where BEN does not post that is fine. In the future I will post to a tutorial or some closed format thread as I am not willing to put up with generalized bull or non chemistry or non scientific opinions or a bunch of non related non mj specific crap trying to be applied to MJ when it is clearly not applicable except to out door and soil grows or very restricted to nearly impossible to pt rovide condition for indoor grows. That is just ludicrous and I want no part of a thread where UB and Kriegs insist on it being the norm.

I thought the thread title would prevent this from happening but obviously a certain poster will post things not in line with the threads title and will continue to do so regardless of having theat issue pointed out to them repeatedly. So basically the thread no longer fits the title meaning I am not any longer a part of a thread with out a scope boundry in keeping with its title. Maybe one day Kriegs or Ben can actually take part in a real methodical, scientific approach to nutrients and nutrient formulations discussion. Rather than just trowing out general plant growing and general nutrient data or specific data about non MJ plants. I highly doubt it though. They are just antquated low tech, soil growers still rely on non specific mj research and soil growing site dat. I do not care about growing things like wheat nor do I take part in soil growing threads or out door threads or even organic threads. I principally stay in the aeroponics section. Perhaps we can have an nutrients thread in the hydro thread. Ben has already proven he has no chenistry knowledge of hydro ni utrients or any real practical experience in Hydroponics so perhaps he would not post his crap there. I doubt that would keep his antiquated opinions and soil opinions and soil links from being posted there either.

This thread is now no longer on my subscription list.

Hey Fatman

I find it a real shame that with all of your education you have not learned to check your ego at the door before teaching.

This is like a sandlot game full of 3rd graders where you are now taking your ball and leaving because the other kids won't follow the rules you made up

How sad,,,hey all because UB & K won't play nice I am going to screw all the rest of you that came here to learn by deleting all my post as I am so far above the rest of the herd that I can not allow my brillance to shine a longside mediorcre thoughts

I have seen UB argue with the best of em since I have been a member and spread his style of breaking forum myths with an honest concern for the plant we are all trying to grow better

I see your concern with your own ego and being considered right or smarter, IOW not willing to share your knowledge unless there are conditions present

I truely hope you can find a way to get over yourself and continue teaching merely for the love of the plant ???