Methodical, scientific approach to nutrients and nutrient formulations discussion

Fatman, i understand you wanting to move on but please consider keeping your posts up!

fatman7574 said:

Take it up with UB and the other generalizing soil growing antique flower power dirt growing Kriegs.

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There's nothing more pathetic than a pouty kid threatening to take his football and go home. Don't worry fatman, we can play ball without you. You take yourself way too seriously.

For the third time, where's your plants? I want to see the results of your brand of "correct" plant nutrition.

UB

Well, I'll take the "flower power dirt growing.." part as a major compliment!

well lets see if we can keep the thread alive without killing each other...

Different types of plants use nutrients in different quantities and ratios; creating preferred nutrient profiles for various types of plants. On top of that, the same type of plants will use nutrients differently when grown using different cultural practices or when grown in different climatic conditions. For example, outdoor field crops in natural settings that take six months to reach maturity versus indoor crops grown in artificial environments that will require only three months to reach maturity are hardly playing on the same ball field.
What does this all mean, and where is this article going with it? Well, to put it bluntly, there are a surprising number of nutrient formulations that are simply “wrong” for modern indoor growing, and here’s why:

• The formulation(s) has been based on un-applicable or less relevant research information. The data gathered growing field crops using conventional methods tells us something, however, it cannot be accurately used to create optimal nutrient ratios for the unique requirements of modern crops grown indoors.
• For optimal results, crop formulas need to be created specifically for the type of crop being grown and the types of conditions it is being grown under; what’s optimal for one type of plant will not be optimal for another. One size does not fit all. However, nutrient components may be tailored by savvy growers to create the optimal profile for their particular plant type; provided that the grower knows what those ratios are.
• The optimal nutrient ratios change slightly through different crop developmental phases such as in the seedling/cutting phase versus the vegetative growth phase versus the bloom phase. It’s important to know what these changes are and to have them reflected in the crop feeding schedule.

In the end, most growers are putting a lot of trust in the manufacturer of their chosen nutrients. This is all well and good, as your success as a grower will be their success as a manufacturer. However, have you really stopped to think and ask: what exactly do they know, and where have they gotten their information from? Sure, if the plant is supplied the 13 major essential elements it requires it will live and grow. If the ratios of these elements are supplied at the correct times and mirror the plants demand for those nutrients and in those ratios, the plants can grow at optimal levels. It’s possible that many of us who have harvested very healthy and seemingly large yielding indoor crops were not in fact harvesting the optimal crop, leaving much more room for improvement than we may have realized. Just to back this point up a bit, consider 10 years ago that the majority of indoor growers were yielding ½ of what they can yield today, in the same space, using the same amount of electricity. Yes, of course there are exceptions, although that does appear to be the rule of thumb.


So, why the improvement? There are several reasons, including plant genetics. However, a large part of this increase can be attributed to nutrient formulations and grow gear that have started to evolve to specifically address artificial and intensive modern growing environments and the types of plants that people like to grow in them. This article is here to state that there is still much more to be done in the way of research and improvements in nutrient formulations that are intended for intensive artificial growing environments and the new breed of plants being grown in them. Products that have been developed through research on modern indoor crops are now available to indoor growers, while some growers continue to use out-dated technologies to achieve moderate harvests.

The most important factor that makes a chemical or element pure or impure is the relative amount of that element (or elements, in a compound) compared to other elements that are not required. For example, if a chemical, let’s say Phosphorus, is said to be 99.5% pure, this means it contains 99.5% of the required element (phosphorus in this case). The same would be true for a compound like Potassium Nitrate (which contains both calcium and nitrogen). It would contain 99.5% of the multiple elements. The remaining 0.5% would be made up of other elements that are present but not required (i.e. impurities).

Some common impurities found in many chemicals are Lead, Mercury, Cadmium, Arsenic and Perchlorates. Perchlorates are extremely detrimental to the growth of particular plant species, even in the smallest amount. The other elements listed are all heavy metals. They slow the metabolic processes of the plants, thereby slowing the growth of the plant and hence the yield, which is definitely a very bad thing! This being said, it should be remembered that not all impurities have direct detrimental effects on plants.

Fatman, you the fucking pimp daddy. Thanks for all the great info and ur time...... I've been trying to hunt down tissue analysis data and how production managers use this data in the formulations. From what I read there is quite the technique used for picking which sample would be tested and when. What kind of procedure would you envision for cannabis?..... also know any lab's who would do samples for a farmer like me?.....

Uncle Ben please read and remember the title to this thread when you think you have something to share with us.

http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/egov/is/fert/fert2.asp?ID=5792

the link above has PBP trace elements in ppm.

how do i convert it to % of chemical, so I can use this info with the premix calculator...

any help would be great...

Edit:

http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/profiles.htm#profilecalculator

What i got so far for first two weeks of veg is

N-P-K-Mg == 120 - 65 - 177 - 51

And that's with mixing Ml/per gal?

I have no clue what i am doing i just think i do?
I looked at mel franks strong light.

PBP Grow 4 Ml/per gal
PBP Bloom
PBP Soil 10 Ml/per gal
Cal-Mag 8 Ml/per gal
Liquid Karma 10 Ml/per gal
Sweet Berry
Aqua Shield 10 Ml/per gal

Edit:

I am using HP Aero so i would cut this formula half?

Check out my calc.

It's pretty methodical-- like your mom.

Blah blah blah.

Just go ahead and try my nutes. Something different.

Peace.

Weird sales pitch...

Also, 8+ dollars to treat 10 gallons sounds like about as expensive as it gets.

But overall they seem like decent nutes... is this your company or are you just retailing it?

uncle ben i think you are out of order arguing that because someone dosnt post pics of their grow on the net that their comments are thus invalid. thats shite, i know lots of people who wouldnt post pics on the net, they have been at it for years and know shitloads of stuff about growing but they are cautious, thats why they have been growing for 30 or more years without a bust because they keep their heads down, just becauuse someone posts pics of massive foxtail colas dont meen they are ed rosenthal, some wankers steal pics off other sites and post them, pics are just pics. its ok for you, i know of no one ever being busted for growing rice.

It's a shame this thread took a massive nose dive.

bump for S&G

Wet

i still have to catch up on the reading but.. SUB'D!

fatman7574 said:

Fathers of Hydroponic Nutrient Formulations



This is made essentially according to the following reference: D.R. Hoagland and D.I. Arnon. The water-culture method of growing plants without soil. Calif. Agr. Expt. Sta. Circ. 347. 1950. There is one change and that is in the form of iron added.
In making nutrient solutions, always add the required quantities of stock solutions to a fairly large volume of water and then make to volume. Stocks can be stored on the shelf. Below are the quantities to make Full Strength Hoagland's solution. In order to make ½ strength as used in most of this workshop just cut all stock solution amounts by ½ and make up to volume as usual.
Prepare the following stock solutions (1-6) and use the amounts indicated to prepare 1 liter ( final volume ) of nutrient solution:
1. 1.00 M NH4H2PO4 use 1 mL/L of nutrient solution
2. 1.00 M KNO3 use 6 mL/L of nutrient solution
3. 1.00 M Ca(NO3 )2 use 4 mL/L of nutrient solution
4. 1.00 M MgSO4 use 2 mL/L of nutrient solution
Micronutrient stocks: combine the following amount of salts in a total volume of one liter of water, and then use 1 mL/L of this entire stock mixture (5) along with the stocks above(1-4) and the iron stock (6) described below to make up a total of 1 L of nutrient solution.
5. 2.86 gm H3BO3
1.81 gm MnCl2 .4H2O
0.22 gm ZnSO4 .7H2 O
0.08 gm CuSO4 . 5H2O
0.02 gm H2MoO4 . H2O
(Asssaying 85% MoO3)
6. Iron stock: to the above 5 stocks add 0.25 ml of this iron stock for 1 liter of nutrient solution.
To make up the iron stock, take 26.1 g EDTA and dissolve in 286 ml water that has ~19 g KOH . Then dissolve 24.9 g FeSO4.7H2O in ~ 500 ml water. Slowly add the iron sulfate solution to the potassium EDTA solution and aerate this solution overnight with stirring. The pH rises to about 7.1 and the solution is wine red and very little precipitation occurs. Make to 1 liter final volume and store in a bottle covered with foil (dark).
Note: Hoagland’s recipe called for 1 ml of 0.5% iron tartrate stock per liter of nutrient solution but we use the above substitution.

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Hi, I am new at this forum.
I have been using the Hoagland and Arnon solution for some time but indeed, there occurs some iron precipitation. Do you have the reference for the new Fe solution (marked in red) you proposed instead? It would help me a great deal!

Thank you

Hey all...trying to read though this thread but I thought you should all know my buddy and I made a ppm calculator but you have to tally each nutrient you use for total ppm...Hope this can help anyone who wants it out.

Nutrient Calculator

Haha(Simpsons style) Cut and paste king ! If not this makes the second " Professor" that I know of on here that has no plants to show us that support their studies . If you are a "Professor" it is said you can't get over yourself and be open minded . Atleast if your gonna take an honest stab at it consider your "audience" .Collage graduates ?I'm sure most are not props to those who are but , u should consider who is listening b4 u tlk .Gt wht I mean ? LOL

The other professor has made some succesful threads on here and has gained an audience in organics and dubbed veganatics (<spelled wrong) Get over it dude ,open your mind , broaden your horizens , whatever you are obviously far from being a Ganja God deserving an audience .

KingofQueen

man i wana say this, i never talked to Fatman, but i was linked to this thread by luck before i was ever a member in here, and it was actually the most beneficial thread for me by far, and i've been on a huge number of threads in so many forums. i wanted to get my hydro ferts in parts and pay a small sum and i used the info in here and my results were great and i got a lifetime supply of ferts for cheap. many would just buy brand ferts at silly prices, i never have to anymore and i can add whatever fert parts i want without the others, better control on feeding. this thread is filled with great info and i appreciate the effort Fatman put in it.

zem said:

man i wana say this, i never talked to Fatman, but i was linked to this thread by luck before i was ever a member in here, and it was actually the most beneficial thread for me by far, and i've been on a huge number of threads in so many forums. i wanted to get my hydro ferts in parts and pay a small sum and i used the info in here and my results were great and i got a lifetime supply of ferts for cheap. many would just buy brand ferts at silly prices, i never have to anymore and i can add whatever fert parts i want without the others, better control on feeding. this thread is filled with great info and i appreciate the effort Fatman put in it.

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Then keep looking around ! I,ll take my advice from the commercial grower over the bookworm .There is lots of good info here at RIU, just weed your way through the threads and consider reading UB's writings and if you want to go to school check out RM3 .

nog said:

uncle ben i think you are out of order arguing that because someone dosnt post pics of their grow on the net that their comments are thus invalid. thats shite, i know lots of people who wouldnt post pics on the net, they have been at it for years and know shitloads of stuff about growing but they are cautious, thats why they have been growing for 30 or more years without a bust because they keep their heads down, just becauuse someone posts pics of massive foxtail colas dont meen they are ed rosenthal, some wankers steal pics off other sites and post them, pics are just pics. its ok for you, i know of no one ever being busted for growing rice.

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That's not out of line at all . I get what you say about growers who dont post on the net , but here at RIU , the most exciting thing I would have to say for everyone is to see the plants behind all the madness . No plants , we call bullshit .Especially when everything appears to be cut and pasted .I lost intrest in this thread when he started disagreeing with a very knowlagable staple on the site very disrespectful .So in conclusion dont brag about how much you know if you can't show that knowlage at work .