MY True HP Aero Plug&Play Pods

Atomizer said:

If you collect it in a seperate container you have the choice of re-using or binning it.
You have a fairly large accumulator so it might take upto 48 hours to reach the pumps cut-in pressure depending on the cycle time, you`re futureproofed with plenty of capacity for expansion

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I always seem to get more than i need. I guess my eyes are bigger than my lungs. Well, atleast i can expand when i choose too and have the money to. This room and all these new toys have hit my pocket pretty hard...

well as i was going into the 7 week i noticed the girls just stopped pretty much feeding. i saw the runoff ppm drastically stop. i thought this was probably normal since they were suppose to finish in 8 weeks. I just left it go for a few days but was somewhat puzzeled. After a few days i thought let me check the PH of the runoff. ive always just been checking the PPM of the runoff never thought to check the PH cause its DTW. well i was surprised to see it was about .6 higher than what was going in. so i decieded to give them just PH adjusted RO water then give them some fresh nutes. Well i started the RO water thinking it would only take 5 gallons (1 day regular cycles)or so to flush to 0ppm runoff. well i found out i was wrong. it took nearly 48hrs of straight RO to get the ppms to 0 on the runoff.

it seems to me now that there is some buildup that occures in the system even at low EC levels cause of the root volume and the small amount of flow through the system to flush it on a daily basis.

After reintroducing fresh nutes they again started feeding. of coarse this whole process burned up nearly 5 days. but ive learned a good lesson. a flush every so often would be wise at least once the root mass filles the chamber.

Hi TF
Good job on getting to the bottom of the nute stall problem. A daily flush during the night cycle might be the way to go?
It wouldn`t take much to add a 2nd accumulator running ph`d ro on a motorized valve and timer. A 5gal tank could run your 16 nozzles for 16 hours on 2sec/30min night timings without the pump.
You would gain a nice bonus of the ro cleaning all the lines and nozzles every night too

tree farmer said:

well as i was going into the 7 week i noticed the girls just stopped pretty much feeding. i saw the runoff ppm drastically stop. i thought this was probably normal since they were suppose to finish in 8 weeks. I just left it go for a few days but was somewhat puzzeled. After a few days i thought let me check the PH of the runoff. ive always just been checking the PPM of the runoff never thought to check the PH cause its DTW. well i was surprised to see it was about .6 higher than what was going in. so i decieded to give them just PH adjusted RO water then give them some fresh nutes. Well i started the RO water thinking it would only take 5 gallons (1 day regular cycles)or so to flush to 0ppm runoff. well i found out i was wrong. it took nearly 48hrs of straight RO to get the ppms to 0 on the runoff.

it seems to me now that there is some buildup that occures in the system even at low EC levels cause of the root volume and the small amount of flow through the system to flush it on a daily basis.

After reintroducing fresh nutes they again started feeding. of coarse this whole process burned up nearly 5 days. but ive learned a good lesson. a flush every so often would be wise at least once the root mass filled the chamber.

Click to expand...

But again any time lost to flushing processes wastes growing time reagardless if it is one day a week or 5 days every five weeks etc.

I think there is an alternative but I do not think AN or GH is going to provide it as to few people use chamberized high pressure aero or chamberized atomized aero as there is not enough money in doing testing and in manfacturing for the few using such systems. The money is to produce fertilizer for the majority. The nutrients needs of the majority are not the same needs as those of the chamberized high pressure aero or chamberized atomized aero growers.

IMHO Add an ammonium based fertilizer such as ammomium nitrate or preferably ammonium phosphate as this will cause the roots to release H+ ions as the ammonium is a cation ion ie a plus charge.

I discussed earlier this was a problem with recirculated fertilizers (needs of the masses) as the excessive H+ released lowered the pH requiring that you raise the pH back up daily. Apparaently with the aeros systems greater uptake efficiency the plants are definitely going to need the ammonium ion take up to counter excessive OH negative ions it is now releasing. (a problem not experienced by the masses). The addition of the ammonium ions should cause the plant to utilize the nutrients such a way as to then discharge a pH nearer to that of the nutrients initial pH. The other choice is to lower the pH by adding phosphoric acid to thake the pH down to the lowest acceptable pH.

Besides increasing the phosphorus availablity it will also add extra H+ ions to counter what ever is causing the roots to now be dumping hydroxide ions. Lucas does have a lot of magnesium and calcium which would also tend to cause a higher pH if the plant is not needing them as buffers. Oh the fun of new things.

IMHO I really think it is going to eventually come down to using a hydroponic nutrient formulated specifically for high pressure aero and atomized systems or the doctoring of existing formulas. The formulas sold are simply made for less efficient systems and are therfore inadequate. Ie higher ammonium and phosphorus levels that the poor uptake hydro sytems can not tolerate without greater operator involvement (ie daily pH adjustments for low pH during budding) appears to be nearly essential to the more efficient systems so as the prevent just the opposite pH problem. Those systems experience low pH due to larger amounts of ammonium ions and phosphorus and more efficient aero systems experience high pH without the increased amonium and phosphorus.

I imagine a lot of things will be teasted and learned over the next year with 4 or 5 chamberized high pressure and chamberized atomized systems be tested and used by people from this forum. It usually takes both those who tinker and test and those that simply run a system at set unalterred parmeters combined before things really make the most sense.

Atomizer said:

Hi TF
Good job on getting to the bottom of the nute stall problem. A daily flush during the night cycle might be the way to go?
It wouldn`t take much to add a 2nd accumulator running ph`d ro on a motorized valve and timer. A 5gal tank could run your 16 nozzles for 16 hours on 2sec/30min night timings without the pump.
You would gain a nice bonus of the ro cleaning all the lines and nozzles every night too

Click to expand...

you know i was thinking on the same lines but it would be much easier for me to just have a seperate res to feed the system with and then alls it would take is to have a valve switch res tanks at what ever times one chose. it all goes to the dtw anyway.

Of coarse what fatman says is probably what would be best but i dont have a though enough grasp of that subject but am working on it.

I know with my LP aero systems i always had problems with the PH droping towards the end not rising.

Switching the res over to ro is easier. It might take a while for the ro to replace the nutes in the tank and lines. Using the revised nozzle flowrates, your pump may be running once every 4 hours during lights on and once every 13 hours during lights out.
I think an ammonium source would encourage nitrifying bacteria (nitrosoma and eventually nitrobacter) to take up residence in the rootzone, not a bad thing with dtw. They cause localised ph drop due to the oxidising process. The conditions in the chamber are perfect for them, plenty of surface area (roots), a food supply and unlimted oxygen.

Atomizer said:

Switching the res over to ro is easier. It might take a while for the ro to replace the nutes in the tank and lines. Using the revised nozzle flowrates, your pump may be running once every 4 hours during lights on and once every 13 hours during lights out.
I think an ammonium source would encourage nitrifying bacteria (nitrosoma and eventually nitrobacter) to take up residence in the rootzone, not a bad thing with dtw. They cause localised ph drop due to the oxidising process. The conditions in the chamber are perfect for them, plenty of surface area (roots), a food supply and unlimted oxygen.

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i already have a drainline to bypass the selonoid installed so when switching to the ro res i could simply drain whatever is in the accumulater-line and then switch the tank and turn the pump back on (i have an on-off switch wired in to the pump already) thus filling the system with ro water. take less than a minute to drain the system. i have it so the drain line goes back to the nute res now so it wouldnt be wasted. i use that return line and valve to flush the air out of the system and to set the pressure switches without having to fire the solenoid and drench the roots. so the sytem could be changed over to the RO res and be ready instantly to fire RO water in under 2 minutes. Not sure i would want to do it every lights out but every so often i think is going to be something im going to encorporate.

i think it was tree farmer who had this...

but who has the high psi tank, and the and the small pump that pressurizes the tank constantly?

im using the 1gph 80 micron misters from drip store that fatman turned me on to...
unless there are better ones?

im trying to figure out the best psi i should use for an ideal condition. Im going to be using the huge rubbermade tubs that are about 3-4 ft long, and 2 ft wide, and over 2 ft tall.

Im going to have 8 or less plants per tub... prbably 4 plants, but 8 maybe.

im thinking about using 2 sprayers per tub, and having them come in from the lid, and shoot striaght down.

if i had lets say on the high side... 15 of these tubs, so 30 sprayers if i use 2 per tub...

what size tank would i need?

and which pump would i want to use?

where do i get a pressure switch so that the pump shuts off?

or should i get a pressurized solenoid on the other side of the tank, so that the pump runs continuous, and whenever the tank gets too high of pressure, it relieves itself.

thanks for the help

I think most of us have an accumulator,solenoid,pressure switch, pump and cycle timer. The wealthier guys have compressor, solenoid, cycle timer and air-atomising nozzles
You can`t trust the gph spec on the nozzles, i`d play it safe and assume its double for accumulator sizing calculations.

Rough estimate: 30 x 1gph nozzles (assume 8lph each to be safe)
Cycle time of 2sec/ 5 mins (shortest cycle likely to be used)
Tank Pressure: 90psi max 70psi min
With a 5gal accumulator the pump will run at most once every 2.25hrs. The pump output depends on how fast you want to put 3.6L (~1gal) back into the tank. A low flow pump might take 10-15 minutes and something more heavy duty perhaps only a minute or so.

TREEFARMER-

The surge problem with your switch can be overcome with an orfice placed in line with the switch, or even a valve almost closed would fix it to. This will slow the reaction time of the switch.

laughingduck said:

TREEFARMER-

The surge problem with your switch can be overcome with an orfice placed in line with the switch, or even a valve almost closed would fix it to. This will slow the reaction time of the switch.

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interesting tip. ill have to try it. i was actually going to increase the line going to the pressure switch to 1/2 instead of the 1/4 inch line that now feeds it to remedy the problem or was going to buy an electronic pressure switch that can be programmed to ignore a certain drop momentarily.
ill stick a 1/4 valve on the line feeding it and see what happens. whats crazy is it only will momentarly trip when the solenoid fires the first time on the first cycle after the pump fills the accumulator tank. After that it doesnt do it again until the next fill up cycle.

Hi TF
Strange its happening only once after the accumulator fills.
Where is the pressure switch located in the layout? Is it pump,switch,tank,solenoid or perhaps pump,tank,switch, solenoid?
I have the switch located directly after the pump and before the tank if thats anything to go by

Atomizer said:

I think most of us have an accumulator,solenoid,pressure switch, pump and cycle timer. The wealthier guys have compressor, solenoid, cycle timer and air-atomising nozzles
You can`t trust the gph spec on the nozzles, i`d play it safe and assume its double for accumulator sizing calculations.

Rough estimate: 30 x 1gph nozzles (assume 8lph each to be safe)
Cycle time of 2sec/ 5 mins (shortest cycle likely to be used)
Tank Pressure: 90psi max 70psi min
With a 5gal accumulator the pump will run at most once every 2.25hrs. The pump output depends on how fast you want to put 3.6L (~1gal) back into the tank. A low flow pump might take 10-15 minutes and something more heavy duty perhaps only a minute or so.

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where is the best deal on a slow, no frils, high psi pump to get it back up to 90 or wherever i need to get to?

Atomizer said:

Hi TF
Strange its happening only once after the accumulator fills.
Where is the pressure switch located in the layout? Is it pump,switch,tank,solenoid or perhaps pump,tank,switch, solenoid?
I have the switch located directly after the pump and before the tank if thats anything to go by

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remember i have 2 pressure switches. the one that does it is after the accumulator tank. the one that comes right after the pump and before the accumulator tank doesnt do it now but it did in the past. it seems if i go out of the current range much 80-97 it will start to do it to.

when i bought ths solenoid i was talking to the guy because i was afraid the selonoid would have to big of an orrifce and cause the problem to be worse and when i told him he suggested putting a valve on the output of the selonoid to slow the surge but i never did because the valve never made the problem any worse.

Now this guy says try a valve on the actual ps line. i think that might work cause it would slow the sudden surge of the flow back from the pressure switch line when the valve opens.

Yea it is strange that it only happens at max pressure but i think its worth a try.

I have the pressure relief valve laying here along with the check valve im going to use in the system but am waiting till things are finished. then the second pressure switch wont be needed as a safety feature anymore. although i want to hook it up to my backup pump but havent got that all put together yet. my new nozzels came and i started working on my silk screen bottoms im going to put in. not putting the nozzels in till next time. im also replacing all the tubing. i figured fuck trying to flush it all i can replace it quick with the JG fittings fast for around 25 bucks. then ill have a new system. have you ever wondered if shit cakes inside the accumulator tanks though. wouldnt mind making sure thats clean.

I think you`d have to be careful using a valve on the pressure switch line, if you have to close it down a lot it`ll be more susceptable to clogging issues due to the small orifice. It`ll probably slow the response time of the pressure drop from the switch to the main line too, especially with only low pressure to drive it through the small opening in the valve.
The worst case is it creates the same switch problem but at the low pressure end of the tank cycle

Checking for caking in the tank isnt too easy unless you have the type you can take it apart to replace the bladder. I guess its a plus point for regular flushing.. using a descaler probably wouldn`t do the bladder much good in the long run.

sherriberry said:

where is the best deal on a slow, no frils, high psi pump to get it back up to 90 or wherever i need to get to?

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There are plenty of pumps at reasonable money that will do the job. Either one of TF`s pumps would fit the bill nicely.
A few other alternatives include an aquatec cdp-8800 which does about 0.8 LPM @ 80psi or a cdp-6800 that has about half the flowrate but runs almost silently if stealth is a factor.

sherriberry said:

where is the best deal on a slow, no frils, high psi pump to get it back up to 90 or wherever i need to get to?

Click to expand...

look thru these sites. im not saying these pumps but the sites have all kinds of pumps look for one that has the pressure you want.



http://www.pumpagents.com/ShurfloPumps/8000-812-639.html

http://www.systemacc.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_302/products_id/1559

http://www.steam-brite.com/store/shurflo-150psi-volt-viton-seals-p-5112.html

http://www.tbaquatics.com/shop/aquatec-8800-booster-pump-400.html?zenid=c457116dd930c957b852b73d00475f3d

Hi PetFlora
welcome to the forum, heres my 2c
1. 20-30secs= lp aero results, 2sec or less= hp aero results
2. one plant, its essential kit

PetFlora said:

Hey Tree Farmer. Nice informative journal you've got here. Just as I did here, you would need to join IC to post pics.

Couple of questions:

1. Percentage wise "How much bigger, how many more bud site, and heavier are the plants/buds incorporating an accum versus regular TAG with 20- 30 sec/3-7 minutes pause"

2. How many plants should one have before an accum makes sense?

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those are some tough questions to answer as a person would have to run a side by side or at least have done the same strain in both systems to really give an exact answer. i only have 4 girls never ran them in LP. i dont think the numbers are relevent as the system can function with the right design from 1 to whatever number. i will say i personally have never had these fine root hairs from Lower pressure systems 40-60psi and i have run with and without accumulators and some pretty short cycle intervals at those pressures. i think to develop the fine root hairs you have to have a combination of instant on-off, high pressures and correct droplet size and only accumulator and air assisted setups can accomplish that.

Now just from seeing these roots and there ability to uptake very effieciently water and nutes one can just assume that it must increase plant growth. id pm you some info but cant cause you dont have the post count here yet.

tree farmer said:

I know with my LP aero systems i always had problems with the PH droping towards the end not rising.

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I recently switched to RO water and have noticed pH dropping for my plants during the later stages of flowering. Before, with tap water, I never had to make pH adjustments. It seems I have to at least every other day now, but the plants love it.

The storage tank that comes with RO systems... is it possible to use that as an accumulator?

The max. psi is 100, but I'm not sure what the capacity is... I don't think it's much, maybe a gallon?

Thanks. Tree farmer, atomizer--you guys are grrrreat!