Obamacare - What to do

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Good morning Buck...

It doesn't make sense for a employer to provide health care for thousands of dollars, when the employee can get it for almost nothing on there own if they make 30k......
that's why employers will face a "social responsibility" fine if they do not provide health care to their employees, smarty. did you even read the bill, or are you still just parroting limbaugh and pals? :lol:

...... I don't know I just look around where I am at....
that might explain the extremely limited world view. that, and a propensity to parrot right wing radio talk show blathering points.
 

nitro harley

Well-Known Member
that's why employers will face a "social responsibility" fine if they do not provide health care to their employees, smarty. did you even read the bill, or are you still just parroting limbaugh and pals?



that might explain the extremely limited world view. that, and a propensity to parrot right wing radio talk show blathering points.
Social responsibilty thats funny...

You know more about talk radio than I do....I don't listen to radios unless it's the blues channel....classic rock I like that to....
 

nitro harley

Well-Known Member
that's why employers will face a "social responsibility" fine if they do not provide health care to their employees, smarty. did you even read the bill, or are you still just parroting limbaugh and pals? :lol:



that might explain the extremely limited world view. that, and a propensity to parrot right wing radio talk show blathering points.

I did read that link I posted......The info I wanted to know was in that link.....I wonder If anybody has read the bill, you know from front to back...maybe they are still adding to it and each day there is more pages.........................
 

ginwilly

Well-Known Member
businesses have a social responsibility to provide health care?

Why wouldn't they have a social responsibility to provide food, shelter and clothing? That's way way higher on the list of needs of the populace. Oh wait, that's the governments job.

I'm just relieved it was your side that was in charge when we decide what social responsibility a business has. If the religious right realized this is accepted no telling what they'll decide is a social responsibility.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
businesses have a social responsibility to provide health care?

Why wouldn't they have a social responsibility to provide food, shelter and clothing?
that's called a paycheck, smarty.

nice job at trying to change it from "employers" to "businesses". makes it seem like we are demonizing businesses simply for existing rather than on the basis of how humanely they treat their workers (as opposed to treating them like mere commodities or wage slaves).

the most successful companies out there pride themselves on how well they treat their employees because happier workers are more productive workers.

now go ahead and try to subtly twist the argument into something more favorable towards your world view.
 

ginwilly

Well-Known Member
Of course the most successful business models are civic minded. But do they have a responsibility which insinuates we tsk tsk them when they don't or do they have an obligation with fines and penalties if they don't comply? Why just healthcare? why not bible study? The moral majority would try to convince us using the same arguments you will use to convince of your stated obligations. Why do you guys get to impose your beliefs and not them?

I think you are both just as batshit insane and neither have a right to tell me what to do. Hey look, that's three totally different spectrum, what would be the fairest way to decide this in the mind of a liberal?
 

ginwilly

Well-Known Member
because a bible never cured someone of testicular cancer or mitigated the symptoms of fibromyalgia, smarty.
That's just your opinion. There are many unexplained healings that Christians attribute to God. It's also what's best for society if we all follow Jesus' teachings. (I don't want people who think like this to tell me what to do either).

So, why do birth control pills need to be paid for without a co-pay when we have co-pays on our meds for testicular cancer and fibromyalgia? Why not blood pressure meds? insulin? Why not a gym membership? a gym membership actually should make sense using the reduction of healthcare costs as an argument.

I want to live in a world where people do what's right for them because they should, not because they are made to. I don't ever want to cede that power over me to anyone.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
That's just your opinion. There are many unexplained healings that Christians attribute to God.
yet there are no scientifically testable and verifiable results, otherwise medical journals would be all over it.

So, why do birth control pills need to be paid for without a co-pay...?
you still don't realize that every time you ask that question, the democrats gain an electoral vote, do ya?

you got obama trolled, kiddo.

when we have co-pays on our meds for testicular cancer and fibromyalgia? Why not blood pressure meds? insulin?
cancer meds are a treatment, not a prevention mechanism.

insulin? there are ways to prevent diabetes, and there are ways to treat diabetes. a fine medical mind like yourself should know the difference.


Why not a gym membership?
i'm sure plenty of insurers have something exactly like that.
 

GrowinDad

Well-Known Member
Because in this country, health insurance, not religion, is only viable when attached to employment. It is wrong but it is reality. Compare what you get from an employer group policy to what you can buy as an individual and you'll see. That's the idea behind the imperfect exchanges. You can not on one hand deny an employer's responsibility to provide it and then on the other say we shouldn't have a gov. option or universal coverage. To do so is just screwing the WORKING poor.
 

Tabula

Member
So I read through the thread on 2016 which started out about Obamacare and went into infinite other things.

My opinion on Obamacare is that we're better off with it than without it but it's still a shitty bill. I read a ton of what I'd describe as paranoia on that thread and don't think it is anything to fear. I personally support a single-payer system and something more akin to our Canadian and European friends. I say that even though it would likely have a negative impact on me personally, as I'm one of those fairly high income people with good employer-based insurance. I try to view all issues from a macro viewpoint of what is best for society rather than for me personally.

On Obamacare, he was determined to pass something for legacy sake. He knew that in the current (or 4 yr ago) environment, he'd never get anything through unless he got pharma and the insurance companies on board - so yes, just more cutthroat capitalism rather than a care-oriented approach. And then he refused to look into the malpractice lititgation issues that are very real for providers today because he wasn't going to fuck with the trial lawyers. Point being, I have my views on what should be done but I also try to be objective.

With no offense intended to anyone, what pisses me off is how the opposers never seem to have any suggestions. Being against something without any recommendations isn't of much value. So thus the point of this post. I'm curious what ya'll think should be done.

Today, insurance is tied to employment and employers have no mandate to offer or defray costs. Do you believe any full time employer should be forced to have a health care program reasonably priced and subsidized by the employer? Should there be regulations on what that insurance offers? Should insurance be tied to employment.

A huge cost today is people who don't have or can't afford insurance using the emergency room. I made a career change a year ago and looked into buying a policy. What I found is that all that exists out there are policies to protect you if something major happens - cancer, run over by a bus, etc. There's a huge deductible. What it does not cover AT ALL for the most part is the ability for someone to do what I did yesterday - take their sick kid to the doctor. So..... in today's world if you buy a policy for the worst-case scenario, you still will likely use the emergency room and lack primary care to take care of things before they are too bad.

The reason why I support a socialized healthcare system where people can buy supplemental insurance to improve choices is because it allows everyone to go to the doctor and get taken care of. It doesn't force employers to pay for it, which in turn makes burgers cost too much. It admits that all human beings deserve basic dignity and health.

I suport single payer because it would cut huge amounts of administartive costs that make life horrendous for practitioners. I have a good friend who is a GP and trying to comply with each insurance company's rules, chase them down for payment, answer their stupid questions, etc adds a huge distarction and amount of cost to the business.

I'm happy to go on and on with my opinions but I am curious what the naysayers to Obamacare or socialized medicine believe should be done. I will say up front that if you try to claim the market solves all woes or that we shouldn't give a shit about anyone but ourselves, then you're fundamentally ignoring the issue. I'm curious what reforms you support to make healthcare more accessible to the majority of people who don't have it - the WORKING poor.
I pretty much agree with everything you said, and the way you said it.
I want single-payer universal care, but until then this is a start.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
That's just your opinion. There are many unexplained healings that Christians attribute to God. It's also what's best for society if we all follow Jesus' teachings. (I don't want people who think like this to tell me what to do either).

So, why do birth control pills need to be paid for without a co-pay when we have co-pays on our meds for testicular cancer and fibromyalgia? Why not blood pressure meds? insulin? Why not a gym membership? a gym membership actually should make sense using the reduction of healthcare costs as an argument.

I want to live in a world where people do what's right for them because they should, not because they are made to. I don't ever want to cede that power over me to anyone.

Do you wear seatbelts Gin? a motorcycle helmet?
 

ChesusRice

Well-Known Member
I want to live in a world where people do what's right for them because they should, not because they are made to. I don't ever want to cede that power over me to anyone.
I want to live in a world where people take care of their health problems before they become epidemics

Whats the number one reason people dont get vaccinations?

Money
 

ginwilly

Well-Known Member
OK, we liked Obamacare because it was cost neutral. We find out now instead of it costing X it's costing 3X. We liked it because it would cover everyone who couldn't afford insurance. We now know it's closer to X-10,000,000 people will be covered. We liked it because in spite of this huge takeover we can keep the coverage we have. Also not true.

So all the arguments FOR Obamacare no longer hold water yet it's still considered an awesome thing by the partisan hacks. But hey, birth control pills no longer require a co-pay, so it's awesome.

Employees started offering insurance as a benefit to recruit workers. The government stepped in and said hey, that's pretty a pretty cool idea, we should make sure that is the norm by offering tax breaks to "incentivise" proper behavior by companies. Because of these tax breaks, like college tuition with government involvement, costs have skyrocketed. If insurance were never tied to employment you can bet costs would be much much lower.

Why shouldn't we FORCE employees to pay for our gym membership? The logic of b.c. pills dictate this. UB mentioned other avenues than insulin for diabetes. While true you can lose weight and watch your diet, what do you do until your sugar levels are under control? Shouldn't insulin be paid for until it's no longer needed? There are some cases where the patients pancreas doesn't function properly, should we tell them too bad, lose weight even if they don't need to? What about BP medication, how is this not covered fully? People will die without it.

By mandating certain purchases by some citizens and not others and mandating certain health concerns are covered while others are not, we've decided fairness on our feelings instead of logic. Obesity is a major major problem in this country but we thought no co-pay on birth control pills was the ONLY thing that deserves this status. WTF?
 

nontheist

Well-Known Member
OK, we liked Obamacare because it was cost neutral. We find out now instead of it costing X it's costing 3X. We liked it because it would cover everyone who couldn't afford insurance. We now know it's closer to X-10,000,000 people will be covered. We liked it because in spite of this huge takeover we can keep the coverage we have. Also not true.

So all the arguments FOR Obamacare no longer hold water yet it's still considered an awesome thing by the partisan hacks. But hey, birth control pills no longer require a co-pay, so it's awesome.

Employees started offering insurance as a benefit to recruit workers. The government stepped in and said hey, that's pretty a pretty cool idea, we should make sure that is the norm by offering tax breaks to "incentivise" proper behavior by companies. Because of these tax breaks, like college tuition with government involvement, costs have skyrocketed. If insurance were never tied to employment you can bet costs would be much much lower.

Why shouldn't we FORCE employees to pay for our gym membership? The logic of b.c. pills dictate this. UB mentioned other avenues than insulin for diabetes. While true you can lose weight and watch your diet, what do you do until your sugar levels are under control? Shouldn't insulin be paid for until it's no longer needed? There are some cases where the patients pancreas doesn't function properly, should we tell them too bad, lose weight even if they don't need to? What about BP medication, how is this not covered fully? People will die without it.

By mandating certain purchases by some citizens and not others and mandating certain health concerns are covered while others are not, we've decided fairness on our feelings instead of logic. Obesity is a major major problem in this country but we thought no co-pay on birth control pills was the ONLY thing that deserves this status. WTF?
Anyone watch the state of the union? Obamacare has went from "saving money" to "slowing the increase" haha
 

ginwilly

Well-Known Member
I want to live in a world where people take care of their health problems before they become epidemics

Whats the number one reason people dont get vaccinations?

Money
What's the number one reason people are overweight? High-fructose corn-syrup, whatcha doing about it?

Poor people get immunization for free and in most instances your kids can't attend school without them. Not really sure money is the problem. Money gets blamed for every perceived problem from the left it's an infatuation you guys have with other people's money.

I have yet to see any suggestions from the left that doesn't require taking from people other than themselves.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Anyone watch the state of the union? Obamacare has went from "saving money" to "slowing the increase" haha
so if you planned on your grocery bill growing from $50 a week to $100 a week due to inflation, but instead it only went up to $85 because of some measure you took, what would you call that?
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Money gets blamed for every perceived problem from the left it's an infatuation you guys have with other people's money.
how many times have you righties talked about the taxes on my treadmill business?

too fucking easy to catch a hypocrite.
 
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