On Chavez's speech ...

i fail to see the connection, slavery is more commonly a capitalist trait, history would indicate that. redistributing wealth is not about handing over the excess to those who haven't earned it, have you studied economics?

big buddy said:

slavery=wealth redistribution lol, how so?

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Money taken by force represents the fruit of one's labors. The portion of labor that is taken, is now owned by another. What would YOU call a system whereby your labor is owned by another other than slavery? Other systems in other times have referred to slavery as "fairness" or "wealth redistribution." The mistake that is made is in assuming that the term slavery has something to do with whips and chains. We are talking economic slavery here ... and make no mistake about it, once economic liberty is lost, political liberty is lost as well. Those who had to knuckle under to Mao and Stalin could explain it best.

Vi

PS: And yes ... I have studied economics.

hmmm... maybe you got an f then! using the term slavery is bound to have connations of whips and chains for indeed that was what the western world was built upon, your distinction between whips and chains slavery and economic slavery is absurd- dont you realise that slavery has always been economic!!! vast profits were made from the sweat of slaves! also you seemed to have jumped to the conclusion that redistribution of wealth is exclusively communist- not the case at all!!! the labour of the workers is already owned by others and using your definition that is slavery, but yet that is capitalism!

Well said, I think ViRedd is really Dickhead Cheney incognito. I,m certainly for a little of his wealth re-distribution!

medicinaluseonly said:

Well said, I think ViRedd is really Dickhead Cheney incognito. I,m certainly for a little of his wealth re-distribution!

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When do you start with the Nazi and Racist accusations? Quite honestly, you are typical of your ilk. What ever you do, don't refute the ideas that you disagree with, with other ideas. Just spout off with personal attacks instead. You are being revealed for what you are here ... an empty suit.

And suprize, suprize! ... Not all pot smokers wear Birkenstocks and march in lock-step to the tune of the Democrats.

Vi

big buddy said:

... the labour of the workers is already owned by others and using your definition that is slavery, but yet that is capitalism!

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In a capitialistic society, labor is voluntary, not forced. You are paid for what you produce, no more and no less ... and that is not slavery. Its called "having a job." Its when an outside entity comes into the equasion and extracts the unearned from your paycheck that determines the economic slavery issue.

Vi

Don't wear suits! There comes a time in conversation when the opposition is so entrenched in his perspective, and his mind is so closed to any outside ideas, that you either quit conversing or resort to some form of violence, I choose the former!

Yes, and telling folks you disagree with politically to go fuck themselves is not violence? You are so typical of those on the left. Your arguments are like baloons filled with hot air. Just stick a pin in the ideas and watch the empty suit collapse.

Vi

PS: I'm really looking forward to your response to my new "WalMart; the evil doer" thread. *lol*

medicinaluseonly said:

Don't wear suits! There comes a time in conversation when the opposition is so entrenched in his perspective, and his mind is so closed to any outside ideas, that you either quit conversing or resort to some form of violence, I choose the former!

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And exactly what were those ideas? I saw NO concrete ideas from you what-so-ever. All you have done so far is to spew the talking points of the party of hate and class envy. You posted nothing concrete and did nothing but revisit the old bromides of the Left. Your party and it's entire bank of "ideas" are bankrupt. When challenged, you resorted to personal attacks. When answered in return with logic and reason, you ran and hid.

With that said, present your facts. I asked you in another post to elaborate on what your ideal world would look like. I asked you what changes you would make if your were King of The Realm. You promised to return with an answer ... but instead, returned with personal attacks. Surely, you have more confidence in your "ideas" than that, no?

Vi

Hey redd no more politics with you. your probably right, I'm way too emotional about the plight of this planet and can't argue with a concrete mind. I can not see you ever changing so whats the use of arguing, I didn't take debate class in college as I really don't prefer confrontations. It just really scares me to have people like you running the world. I used to think (when I first started smokin pot) that if everyone smoked, the world would be about peace and love. I've surly had that idea spanked from my mind by reality. The only viable answer is Divine intervention. So tear this apart if you can, I won't respond!

quite simply, the reason redistribution of wealth is called for is that workers are not paid for what they produce! in most cases only those who own the means of production profit from labour, mostly the labour of others, forced or free. owning the profit=owning the labour. those in charge of the system take the majority of the profit and the workers take the crumbs, to deny this is fantasy. you can not exploit someone and then tell them they are free! or tell them they are "free" to be exploited by whoever they want to work for. i feel i must state again that i am not a communist and that redistribution of wealth is not exclusive to communism, in fact 2 of the 3 main political partys in the uk agree with it, labour(current government) and the liberal democrats, all top earners must pay higher rates of tax to narrow the divide between rich and poor, money taken by the government, not really an outside entity is it? so please explain to me vi to what outside entity would you be refering to?

eg, a boss with high earnings pays his staff a small percentage of what his company makes, his personal salary is vast so he is therefore liable to a higher rate of tax, which is in turn fed back to his workers through benefits for the low paid staff he employs, well vi- is this theft of which you speak?

i have a real problem in your attitude to debate, your responses to me have been what i would have expected in debate, reasonably civil and making some sort of a point(however misguided). however your response to medcinaluseonly have been somewhat venomous and immature, i find that reading over what you have written before, you are bursting with ideas(which maybe is a good thing) although you have let yourself down by trying to belittle people, you can never truly win by doing that. failing to understand an argument due to your own narrow mindedness is complete arrogance and stubborness on your part. maybe you feel on this website that your veiws are in the minority(maybe, maybe not) and that is some sort of threat to your beliefs, but you'll never convince people if you expose yourself so easily through anger. please do not respond to this by saying he started it. i love debate, and il take you on anyday, but if you talk to me the way you have done to medicinaluseonly then its bye bye time.

peace

Well said. I felt that he was talking down to me, like he was the professor and I was a freshman student. I'm sure we've had different lifestyles (vired and me) , but he has a way of taking the superior attitude which demeans the advesary. I'm sure he has much more money than I, and that makes the right wing guys feel so superior. Most of them have had their lifestyle handed to them by birthright, and wouldn't know what it is like to put in a hard honest days work (the physical kind). I refuse to debate him any further as I really don't believe any human is inferior to another, richer maybe, more intelligent maybe, but not superior. For a professed Christian, he doesn't act like one, just like G.W. Bush, He professes Christian beliefs and acts like a greedy Capitalist. Enough said!

big buddy said:

i have a real problem in your attitude to debate, your responses to me have been what i would have expected in debate, reasonably civil and making some sort of a point(however misguided). however your response to medcinaluseonly have been somewhat venomous and immature ...

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My responses to Medicinal were what they were because he resorted to personal attacks. He makes claims that he cannot back up with facts. You, on the other hand, are rational.

With that said, you, Medicinal, have made erroneous assumptions about me, my work, my charity my wealth and have made disparaging remarks about all of that. I had my first full time job at the age of twelve and have been working ever since. I've had jobs that were so physically hard they would make you puke, my friend. Opting to fend for myself in the labor market, I've never belonged to a union, nor will I ever. I've been in straight-commissioned sales for the past 41 years ... and an independent contractor for the last 31 years. I am SELF SUPPORTING and proud of it. I've never taken charity from anyone. On the other hand, If a Bum, Hobo, or to be more politically correct, a homeless person asks me for money, I never give it to them. I ALWAYS ask them if they are hungry. If they answer in the affirmative, I take them to a fast food place and buy them a hot meal. I have done this many times, as I believe this is the way we should treat each other, instead of relying on the state for our handouts.

In the future, Medical and Big Buddy, I hope to have many debates and share ideas with all in the Political forum. How about if we agree right here and now to keep personal attacks out of the equasion, OK?

Oh, and Medicaluser ... when you make a claim such as "Bush Lied," or "Bush has caused a shitty economy," be prepared to back up your claim, OK? Otherwise, your arguements are not valid ... therefore my "empty suit" comments. Not dissing you here ... just pointing out the obvious.

You know what strikes me as funny? If one doesn't lean to the left as you do Big Buddy, or left to the extreme like you Medicaluser, one is automatically branded as a Right-Wing zealot or a Capitalist Pig. I am none of those things. The last time I voted for one of the main-stream candidates for president, it was for JFK ... a Democrat. We DO have other political parties in this country besides Republicans and Democrats, you know.


Vi

The biggest problem I had with V-redd was his superior attitude. after many assaults on my intelligence and position I, like any one under attack, fought back. When positing ones self, you put out your heartfelt feelings about a subject. To be ridiculed and to be made to look like a fool, does not generate a positive interaction of Ideas. His assumptions about me were as far from the truth as mine might have been about him. I fail to see the greedy Capitalistic view of society as being something positive. It's only good for the rich. Being that there are way more un-rich people, people like myself that are getting by, but are being assaulted by higher prices (inflation) and are on a fixed income, or one that doesn't get proportional raises, It's hard for me to understand the superior attitude by this elite group. Just because you have more money and toys, does not make you a better or superior person. the cards may have fallen his way. And oh yeah, just for comparrison, I worked in a lime plant where the daytime temp sometimes exceeded 120 degrees. I sacked 50 lb. bags of lime that came out of the machine at 160 degrees and placed them 12 high (2 ft. over your head) in a boxcar that exceeded 140 degrees. Two of us switched places, one on the machine and one in the boxcar. We produced an average of 5,000 bags in an 8 hour shift, would that make V-redd puke, it did me sometimes, but none-the-less, we still made the 5,000 goal. At my age (65) i go to the gym 3 times a week, and even though I can still lift 50 Lbs, it certainly brings back memories of those tough times. By the way, we were paid approx. 1/2 cent per bag, the bags at that time retailed for 1.00. Share the wealth! I must add, that every job I had, with the exceptions of owning my own businesses, and the mechanic piecework, were union jobs. They were the only jobs I could find that paid a living wage! The same jobs that used to be union and pay 18-25 bucks an hr.(construction) are now held by non-union Mexicans @ 8-10 bucks an hr. The price of homes didn't go down, somebody is makin a killing and it's not the workers!

The biggest problem I had with V-redd was his superior attitude. after many assaults on my intelligence and position I, like any one under attack, fought back.

I fail to see how asking you to back up your positions with facts is insulting your intelligence. That wasn't my intent, at any rate.

Here's a problem I do have, and its not just with you. When someone says something like "Bush Lied" there are others from other countries reading that stuff. Now, Bush DIDN'T lie ... anymore than Bill Clinton, Sandy Berger, Hillary Clinton, John Kerry ... and the ENTIRE cadre of Democrats. They all (both parties) relied on faulty information to form their opinions. Look, if I told you that I was wearing a red shirt while typing this post, and was really wearing a black shirt, then you turned to your buddy and said: "Hey, ViRedd is wearing a red shirt, would you be "lying" or just relying on faulty information?

If you make the claim, for instance, that Bush has caused the economy to go into the crapper, you had better be able to back that up with facts. Otherwise I, and probably many others, will present facts to show that the economy is booming ... mainly due to Bush's tax cuts. Oh, and those are very the same tax cuts that your party, the Democrats, want to roll back.

Vi

there you go again taking one sentence out of a paragraph and demeaning me. you are incredible. why don't you just agree to disagree, we'll never see eye to eye on politics, red is not black and black is not red. Even if I won the lottery and came away with a few million, I would never agree to your perspective, so let it be, relax. I know that both parties are corrupt, sentient, and full of avarice, I just believe the Democrats have less evil inherent in their agendas! So lighten up, where's your sense of humor? And by the way, can you back up the "Bush didn't Lie" comment. That would be a real chore as he lies every day now, blaming the Democrats for all his mistakes and even blaming them, for the Foley debacle. Are we even on the same planet? where do you get your information from Fox news, on the Bill O'Rilley show they even had foley marked as a democrat, yeah thats right a great big D in front of his status. How cowardly was that. You guys need to stand up and take your medicine like Men. If you even have some miniscule intelligence, you can see that Bush is lying every time he speaks, you don't have to be a rocket scientist. WMDs, ties to Al-Queda, things in Iraq are going fine, Mission accomplished, The list is to long to enumerate. I'm sure you'll tear this post up because I didn't have a page #. Christ man, it's common sense, look at the facts, Bush is a fornicating Liar!

Hahahaha! I am NOT demeaning you ... I'm just having a conversation. Lets pretend that I just rolled a big fat joint of my AK-47 x C-99 (the grape pheno) and handed it off to you. You take a huge hit, your eyes glaze over, and you say: "PHUCK, Vi ... that's some Gooood shit!" And I look back at you and say: "PHUCK yes, its good shit ... and you dirt farmers will never get it that good!" Would you call that demeaning, or just two old farts having fun smoking pot together?

You lighten up ... I'm smiling right now, are you?

Vi

well maybe there's hope for you yet. your pot would no doubt blow the top of my head off as I haven't smoked very much in the last 10-15 years, when my white widow matures, I'll try and catch up. I'll not go on the market to buy pot, too risky. At 65, I dont need a grey bar hotel vacation!

The world is run on oil, until we use all the middle easts supply we will stay there, when its gone our interest is gone. Its big business, in last 16 yrs we have had a oil positive president, meaning the pres and friends used the need for our countries consumption of oil to line there pockets and that of there political contributors. Alaska, The gulf our our reserves. China and India's consumpion has gone up 10 tens in last 5 years as they enter their industrial revolution, middle east oil runs out in 80 years at the rate they are drawing it