"Runoff pH is useless" or "Keep an open mind"?

OneMoreRip

OneMoreRip

Well-Known Member
jondamon said:
That’s NOT what you were saying.

you’ve been talking about runoff pH.

NO ONE IS SAYING PH DOESNT MATTER!!!

we are saying that runoff pH is NOT ACCURATE!

you are the one advising people to check it for information.

what information?

what is it actually going to tell you?

If you hit a Salt pocket - and you do leach the salts out of that pocket the higher salinity will have a lower pH more often than not anyway and won’t be accurate!

If your medium is hydrophobic and the water you use runs straight through without actually being absorbed into the medium then you’re just testing water that hasn’t been anywhere as it’s gone straight through the medium and never touched anything.

starting to see why runoff pH can’t be accurately tested for any reliability?

Or are you going to change the narrative again to suit something else you’ve said and changed again?
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here are some quotes from this thread. maybe i read them wrong, but to me they seem to imply ph doesn't matter

''It's the actual reasoning why testing pH in soil doesn't help. I have explained it.''

''Because in organic soil, there's different organic matter in it that buffer it. Unless you're not growing organically.''

''If you're using salts, yes I get it, but that's not a living organic soil. You don't have to ph living soil. ''

''Once you do organics properly, you do not concern about pH at all. ''


My advice it to figure out the ph of the growing medium before making other changes to the growing medium. I believe I have tested enough run off to tell if something is out of wack from it. If you think that is not possible, that's fine, I do think it's possible.

I suggest it because I believe with a little thinking, you can tell if something is way off and worth looking into further and using another method to get a more accurate reading.

It is also the quickest and easiest way, if you don't have a soil ph pen. imo

Say I have a plant in soil and it's not growing well, I test run off and it's in the 5's, while watering with 7ph. To me that says there is a good chance my soil ph may be to low.

say I have plant in soil and it's not growing well, I test run off and it's 6.4, while watering with 7.0 ph. To me that says ph is most likely not the issue.

If you can show me where people have had the above situations, and what I just said is not even close accurate, show me and I will be less likely to advise ever looking at run off.

I'm starting to advise just put your ph pen into medium gently until getting a reading, in a few spots to help ensure consistency . If this is bad, let me know and let me know why.

any method you use that I have heard so far has the possibility of running into a salt pocket.
 
jondamon

jondamon

Well-Known Member
OneMoreRip said:
here are some quotes from this thread. maybe i read them wrong, but to me they seem to imply ph doesn't matter

''It's the actual reasoning why testing pH in soil doesn't help. I have explained it.''

''Because in organic soil, there's different organic matter in it that buffer it. Unless you're not growing organically.''

''If you're using salts, yes I get it, but that's not a living organic soil. You don't have to ph living soil. ''

''Once you do organics properly, you do not concern about pH at all. ''


My advice it to figure out the ph of the growing medium before making other changes to the growing medium. I believe I have tested enough run off to tell if something is out of wack from it. If you think that is not possible, that's fine, I do think it's possible.

I suggest it because I believe with a little thinking, you can tell if something is way off and worth looking into further and using another method to get a more accurate reading.

It is also the quickest and easiest way, if you don't have a soil ph pen. imo

Say I have a plant in soil and it's not growing well, I test run off and it's in the 5's, while watering with 7ph. To me that says there is a good chance my soil ph may be to low.

say I have plant in soil and it's not growing well, I test run off and it's 6.4, while watering with 7.0 ph. To me that says ph is most likely not the issue.

If you can show me where people have had the above situations, and what I just said is not even close accurate, show me and I will be less likely to advise ever looking at run off.

I'm starting to advise just put your ph pen into medium gently until getting a reading, in a few spots to help ensure consistency . If this is bad, let me know and let me know why.

any method you use that I have heard so far has the possibility of running into a salt pocket.
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Exactly any method has the ability to run into a salt pocket of your medium is not FULLY INERT.

i think you’re starting to get it but I won’t hold my breath.
 
OneMoreRip

OneMoreRip

Well-Known Member
I mixed up my own soil, I could have made it anywhere from low 4's to mid 7's, are you telling me I could have made it either of those numbers and cannibals plants would grow the same in it?

also, to stay on topic, would you expect the the the same runoff ph from soil at those different numbers?
 
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Hollatchaboy

Hollatchaboy

Well-Known Member
OneMoreRip said:
I mixed up my own soil, I could have made it anywhere from low 4's to mid 7's, are you telling me I could have made it either of those numbers and cannibals plants would grow the same in it?

also, to stay on topic, would you expect the the the same runoff from a soil at those numbers?
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That's another thing about living soil, you don't water to runoff.
So, no ph adjustment, no runoff. How much easier could it be?
 
Wattzzup

Wattzzup

Well-Known Member
OneMoreRip said:
I mixed up my own soil, I could have made it anywhere from low 4's to mid 7's, are you telling me I could have made it either of those numbers and cannibals plants would grow the same in it?

also, to stay on topic, would you expect the the the same runoff ph from soil at those different numbers?
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Just curious what role you think microbes play? Since you like playing around with ph in organic soil.
 
Running with scissors

Running with scissors

Member
simpleleaf said:
The statement that "runoff pH is useless" is going around RIU. It seems to be a statement which clearly states 100% lack of usefulness.

I have an open mind about runoff pH. While I don't use Hydrobuddy, I do use a spreadsheet and make my nutes from scratch. It's a PITA, tedious and time consuming, and requires concentration to avoid mistakes. I've been able to successfully alter runoff pH by altering the nute's nitrate:ammonium ratio. I didn't discover this, instead read about it. I thought it common knowledge that ammonium sulfate (AMS) was acidifying, but maybe that knowledge was due to my lawn-care background. Manipulating the ratio of nitrate:ammonium in my nute formulas seems to change runoff pH in predictable ways. Therefore, the statement "runoff pH is useless" is false. You can certainly argue its usefulness, but useless means it lacks any usefulness.

For those who buy their nutes in easy-to-use nutrient bottles and who are not trying to change the manufacturer's designed nitrate:ammonium ratio, maybe tracking runoff pH is useless. I don't know. Here's one RIU post which may explain the rationale behind the statement "runoff pH is useless":

Should I Measure pH directly in soil or from run-off water?

Hello everyone! I'm into my 2nd grow and have some issues with the measuring of pH-value. I can't understand whether to measure it directly from the soil or to measure the run-off water. I have tried both and get different values, and I'm not sure which one to go by. Because there are...
www.rollitup.org

The poster said that a soil slurry test is preferable to runoff pH. Maybe it is, for measuring potting mix pH. Is that the same thing as runoff pH? Taking a small core of potting mix which has a plant actively growing in it will likely damage some roots.

The scientists who wrote the following report used runoff pH as a data point:
journals.ashs.org

Runoff pH Influences Nutrient Removal Efficacy of Floating Treatment Wetland Systems

Floating treatment wetlands (FTWs), a modified constructed wetland technology, can be deployed in ponds for the treatment of nursery and greenhouse irrigation runoff. The pH of nursery and greenhouse operation irrigation water varies from 3.3 to 10.4 across the United States. Water flow rate...
journals.ashs.org journals.ashs.org


It is my belief that since I can alter runoff pH by altering the nitrate:ammonium ratio, I should set runoff to a pH value which cannabis plants are known to like and where good mineral absorptions occur. Will it make any difference in the overall performance of my grows? I don't know.

For those who believe "runoff pH is useless," would you mind pointing to any peer-reviewed journal reports which make that assertion?
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I never checked mine for my first plant grow last winter and I don't intend to start. Even if run off ph has changed, all your doing is getting into a never ending cycle of flushing if run off is incorrect. Just my opinion.
 
simpleleaf

simpleleaf

Well-Known Member
Wizzlebiz said:
This is not the actual topic you started out with. So many people have explained why the pH of "runoff" in soil doesn't help you. Which IS the topic of the thread. See below
View attachment 5033148
So now that you have been informed about runoff you have defaulted to other things that are not part of the original topic. Just accept your original thought is not valid and move on.
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Just because you and some other RIUers believe that's the case, no one on your side has proved it, rather just stated their beliefs and practices. When I say prove their case, I mean linking to a peer-reviewed science journal which states "runoff pH is useless" or similarly states it has "absolutely no use at all."

I have posted a link to a horticultural journal (way upthread) which I believe is peer reviewed which uses "runoff pH" as a data point, thus proving it has some usefulness. I have also posted a link way upthread to another grow site in which a poster who claims to be a scientist says runoff pH is a needed data point. But those links and the information in them have apparently not convinced you or your fellow believers that runoff pH as a data point has at least a little usefulness.

I'm reminded of the saying, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make 'em drink," though in this case, it might be more appropriate to say "You can offer a person a lit joint, but you can't make 'em inhale."
 
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simpleleaf

simpleleaf

Well-Known Member
jondamon said:
...

NO ONE IS SAYING PH DOESNT MATTER!!!

we are saying that runoff pH is NOT ACCURATE!

...
Click to expand...
I'm sorry, I started the thread, and "runoff pH is useless" is logically not quite the same as "runoff pH is NOT ACCURATE!" The statements are similar, but your statement represents a slight moving of goalposts. The word "useless" means having absolutely no usefulness at all. "Not accurate" means something else.
 
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