Russians running yearslong Trolling operation to project their blame onto Ukraine.

Roger A. Shrubber said:
what could have caused it? some gas or kerosene and some explosives could have caused it...surely the russians aren't stupid enough to try to pass off something like that, when they have to know that any fire inspector worth 2 shits knows how to detect accelerants.
if it was missile strikes, it should be pretty evident from the damage and debris where they came from.
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Like trolls here everyday demonstrate.

It doesn't matter if it makes sense or not, just putting the lie out there so that people who want to believe it can continue to ignore reality.
 
Roger A. Shrubber said:
what could have caused it? some gas or kerosene and some explosives could have caused it...surely the russians aren't stupid enough to try to pass off something like that, when they have to know that any fire inspector worth 2 shits knows how to detect accelerants.
if it was missile strikes, it should be pretty evident from the damage and debris where they came from.
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it is standard procedure. We do it too.
 
Fogdog said:
He's not a right winger. He's anti-war. I'm OK with that.
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just watched some.

I disliked the part where he recommended the Ukrainians negotiate with a despot.

While I am sympathetic to an antiwar stance, not differentiating between Putin and Biden is the sort of bullshit that can accompany an all-sides approach to war. By that criterion, the French Resistance were war criminals.

This is how a simplistic humanitarian impulse can turn, or be turned, into effective pro-fascist propaganda. I don’t think it was intentional, but filtered through his blinders of sentiment. That guy is worldly enough to know better, so shame on him.
 
cannabineer said:
just watched some.

I disliked the part where he recommended the Ukrainians negotiate with a despot.

While I am sympathetic to an antiwar stance, not differentiating between Putin and Biden is the sort of bullshit that can accompany an all-sides approach to war. By that criterion, the French Resistance were war criminals.

This is how a simplistic humanitarian impulse can turn, or be turned, into effective pro-fascist propaganda. I don’t think it was intentional, but filtered through his blinders of sentiment. That guy is worldly enough to know better, so shame on him.
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I'm not supporting what he is advocating. I'm just saying that he's earnest even if I think he's wrong. I can deal with a person being wrong but honest about it as long as both speak from the same facts. We can talk. Unlike the Qanon Trumper types who aren't sincerely anti war, they just don't like Biden and make up all sorts of lies to cover up their intellectual dishonesty.
 
Fogdog said:
I'm not supporting what he is advocating. I'm just saying that he's earnest even if I think he's wrong. I can deal with a person being wrong but honest about it as long as both speak from the same facts. We can talk. Unlike the Qanon Trumper types who aren't sincerely anti war, they just don't like Biden and make up all sorts of lies to cover up their intellectual dishonesty.
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Exactly. I think I said similar.

I imagine if I said to him what I posted, he would at least consider it.
 
Fogdog said:
I'm not supporting what he is advocating. I'm just saying that he's earnest even if I think he's wrong. I can deal with a person being wrong but honest about it as long as both speak from the same facts. We can talk. Unlike the Qanon Trumper types who aren't sincerely anti war, they just don't like Biden and make up all sorts of lies to cover up their intellectual dishonesty.
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I am not so sure, that shitty smirk at the end and pretending like he is having fun arguing the propaganda points strikes just a preprogrammed troll to me.
 
DIY-HP-LED said:
www.rawstory.com

Pink Floyd's Roger Waters snaps at CNN host while defending Russian invasion of Ukraine

Early Saturday morning, CNN host Michael Smerconish shared a clip from an extensive interview with Pink Floyd founder Roger Waters that grew heated when the interviewer brought up the Russian invasion of Ukraine which brought a virulent rebuke from the rock star. Smerconish introduced the...
www.rawstory.com www.rawstory.com
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sanctimonious poser asshole, who has done it for so long he's forgotten it's a pose...
people like him never remember that the aggressors don't want a negotiated peace, if it was offered to russia, the only way they would accept is if it gave them the entire wedge of Ukraine that they're already busily committing war crimes in...so he wants appeasement...FUCK THAT & FUCK WATERS FOR SUGGESTING IT...ignorant fuckers always assume that fascists will be happy and go away if you give them what they want, but what they want is EVERYTHING, they'll never go away, you have to exterminate them, like vermin
 
Roger A. Shrubber said:
sanctimonious poser asshole, who has done it for so long he's forgotten it's a pose...
people like him never remember that the aggressors don't want a negotiated peace, if it was offered to russia, the only way they would accept is if it gave them the entire wedge of Ukraine that they're already busily committing war crimes in...so he wants appeasement...FUCK THAT & FUCK WATERS FOR SUGGESTING IT...ignorant fuckers always assume that fascists will be happy and go away if you give them what they want, but what they want is EVERYTHING, they'll never go away, you have to exterminate them, like vermin
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When he applied the rationale to Pearl Harbor (with not one word about what Japan did), the necessary corollary is that he is not ok with us providing the impetus to break Hitler’s Germany. I furthermore reject his thesis that the Russians had already won. Without our nibbling at the edges in ‘42 and ‘43, Stalingrad, which was a damn close thing, would have pivoted the other way.

So instead if nine million dead in the camps, try nine hundred million. He would not have stopped until he had all of Eurasia and Africa under the yoke of the swastika, minus China and Indochina that go to Japan.

Never forget that he considered Slavs, as white as western Europeans, as inferior and to be removed.
 
ActionianJacksonian said:
View attachment 5176269
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clever-notlaughing.gif
 
cannabineer said:
just watched some.

I disliked the part where he recommended the Ukrainians negotiate with a despot.

While I am sympathetic to an antiwar stance, not differentiating between Putin and Biden is the sort of bullshit that can accompany an all-sides approach to war. By that criterion, the French Resistance were war criminals.

This is how a simplistic humanitarian impulse can turn, or be turned, into effective pro-fascist propaganda. I don’t think it was intentional, but filtered through his blinders of sentiment. That guy is worldly enough to know better, so shame on him.
Click to expand...
I disagreed with the part where he recommended the Ukrainians negotiate too. I think he starts with the same mistake we all make at times, which is to believe that everybody is like ourselves. From that perspective, Putin can be negotiated with. From that perspective we can look at how NATO did in fact push to Russia's borders and discuss how maybe we shouldn't have threatened Russia into making a preemptive strike against a Ukraine that was going that way.

So, you are right Waters is following simplistic humanitarian beliefs to place the people of Ukraine in what I see would be the lions den. I see Waters as playing the classic role of useful idiot. But that's different from what Trump and right wing authoritarian followers are doing with the subject. That's different from what Putin is doing with his propaganda machine. They are using it as a wedge to peel off support from Democrats or inside NATO. Or they tried that tactic and it blew up on them. Putin has unified NATO and helped heal the harm Trump did to it.

I can listen to Waters and not be bothered by it. I wish we could have discourse like that again. That kind of discussion is healthy.

cannabineer said:
When he applied the rationale to Pearl Harbor (with not one word about what Japan did), the necessary corollary is that he is not ok with us providing the impetus to break Hitler’s Germany. I furthermore reject his thesis that the Russians had already won. Without our nibbling at the edges in ‘42 and ‘43, Stalingrad, which was a damn close thing, would have pivoted the other way.

So instead if nine million dead in the camps, try nine hundred million. He would not have stopped until he had all of Eurasia and Africa under the yoke of the swastika, minus China and Indochina that go to Japan.

Never forget that he considered Slavs, as white as western Europeans, as inferior and to be removed.
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I didn't hear what he said about Pearl Harbor as a condemnation of the US for entering into war. He made the point that the US was isolationist before Pearl Harbor. We didn't come into the war as liberators, we were pushed into it by that attack. I also didn't hear him condemning the US for fighting in that war, he claimed Russia won it before the US even got started.

I'm not defending what he said, I'm just saying I'm OK with somebody being passionately wrong. So long as they don't argue using fake bullshit ginned up by propagandists or otherwise. Waters kind of protest is not a threat to our society.
 
Fogdog said:
I disagreed with the part where he recommended the Ukrainians negotiate too. I think he starts with the same mistake we all make at times, which is to believe that everybody is like ourselves. From that perspective, Putin can be negotiated with. From that perspective we can look at how NATO did in fact push to Russia's borders and discuss how maybe we shouldn't have threatened Russia into making a preemptive strike against a Ukraine that was going that way.

So, you are right Waters is following simplistic humanitarian beliefs to place the people of Ukraine in what I see would be the lions den. I see Waters as playing the classic role of useful idiot. But that's different from what Trump and right wing authoritarian followers are doing with the subject. That's different from what Putin is doing with his propaganda machine. They are using it as a wedge to peel off support from Democrats or inside NATO. Or they tried that tactic and it blew up on them. Putin has unified NATO and helped heal the harm Trump did to it.

I can listen to Waters and not be bothered by it. I wish we could have discourse like that again. That kind of discussion is healthy.


I didn't hear what he said about Pearl Harbor as a condemnation of the US for entering into war. He made the point that the US was isolationist before Pearl Harbor. We didn't come into the war as liberators, we were pushed into it by that attack. I also didn't hear him condemning the US for fighting in that war, he claimed Russia won it before the US even got started.

I'm not defending what he said, I'm just saying I'm OK with somebody being passionately wrong. So long as they don't argue using fake bullshit ginned up by propagandists or otherwise. Waters kind of protest is not a threat to our society.
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Over all, I am in close agreement. I could be wrong, but I got a strong vibe that he was saying that had the US not entered the war at all, that would have been much better.

All this is tempered by the fact that I am no more a serious student of military history than he.

Your last paragraph has me thinking. I had the “useful idiot” thought also. But your last paragraph humanizes what he did, and that’ll probably take a day or two for me to internalize enough to explore what I think and not just feel.
 
cannabineer said:
Over all, I am in close agreement. I could be wrong, but I got a strong vibe that he was saying that had the US not entered the war at all, that would have been much better.

All this is tempered by the fact that I am no more a serious student of military history than he.

Your last paragraph has me thinking. I had the “useful idiot” thought also. But your last paragraph humanizes what he did, and that’ll probably take a day or two for me to internalize enough to explore what I think and not just feel.
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The irony about Waters' outrage over the US supplying Ukraine with weapons is, that's the main contribution the US made to the Soviets that helped them defeat Germany on the Eastern front. We let the Soviets wear down the Germans and take the losses. Not very different from what we are doing in Ukraine.
 
Fogdog said:
The irony about Waters' outrage over the US supplying Ukraine with weapons is, that's the main contribution the US made to the Soviets that helped them defeat Germany on the Eastern front. We let the Soviets wear down the Germans and take the losses. Not very different from what we are doing in Ukraine.
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I believe that we would be more proactive but for the balrog in the woodpile.

1659892241930.jpeg
 
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