Saving money and getting great results...yes pls.

Alienwidow

Well-Known Member
i think i pay a buck less for the gallon of botanicare that i use, lasts me about two weeks.:cuss:theres got to be a cheapo alternative. i have a feeling Nullis will know the answer. i haven't seen him around because i just came back to the site, but he made a couple posts on a thread that have to do with ion exchange that lead me to believe that he knows his science. i believe he is the jedi master that will use the force to show me the way to cheaper calmag supplementation.:bigjoint:
 

Nullis

Moderator
MJ loves bug ridden, wet/moldy soil
I don't know about the wet part... not consistently anyways. But, most bugs actually do more good than you may think (a lot of them you can't even notice easily). I keep predators in my soil, they eat spring-tails that help degrade organic matter and pest insects (releasing plant usable nutrients). They're part of the soil food web, just like molds. Most seem to miss out on the fact that plants grow in nature without human intervention. Whole, lush, green forests with nutrient-hogging trees and plants and yet they all keep growing without our help (until we otherwise decimate them).

I save money by limiting my use of bottled fertilizers (I use some supplements). I use just a few dry amendments and stuff I buy in bulk where possible (fishbone meal, kelp meal, alfalfa meal, limited quantities of guano). I'm trying to get to a point where I can make suitable quantities of earthworm castings from kitchen scraps. Otherwise, I pretty much only use fish fertlizer (Alaskan and General Organics Bio-Marine).

@Nullis i was just reading a great thread you were part of a while back https://www.rollitup.org/t/additives-for-ph-control.846028/page-3
vinegar was mentioned as a ph down substitute. i was wondering your opinion on using this commonly owned cooking ingredient in getting great results on the cheap. happy new year.
Some organic growers use apple cider vinegar, which is more complex than white vinegar. This is still a temporary solution/something you'd have to keep adding. It might be beneficial say if you're using alkaline tap water. I've never had to use it extensively myself.
 
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Nullis

Moderator
Ion exchange that's what, 7th grade science?
I don't know... is it?
i think i pay a buck less for the gallon of botanicare that i use, lasts me about two weeks.:cuss:theres got to be a cheapo alternative. i have a feeling Nullis will know the answer. i haven't seen him around because i just came back to the site, but he made a couple posts on a thread that have to do with ion exchange that lead me to believe that he knows his science. i believe he is the jedi master that will use the force to show me the way to cheaper calmag supplementation.:bigjoint:
Yeah, dolomitic limestone that you add to your mix before you plant into it. Most potting mix on the market is formulated to be used for both soil/hydro or for a variety of plants and can typically use a little more (1 tbsp/gal).

You only really need CalMag products if you use very pure water or low TDS water (RO, multi-stage filtered, rain water, etc.). Dolomitic limestone has calcium and some quantity of Mg between 6-12%. Dolomite itself is calcium magnesium carbonate, which is what they refer to as a "double carbonate" as you have Ca and Mg ions alternating in the crystal lattice structure.

Many sources of tap water already contain lime dissolved in the water (as bicarbonates). This happens in many regions across the sourthern/western USA and other parts of the world where you have limestone deposits near the water table or aquifers. Carbon dioxide dissolves in the water when it rains, which forms carbonic acid, which slowly dissolves the limestone. The carbonates become bicarbonates which are much more water soluble.
 
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Alienwidow

Well-Known Member
I don't know about the wet part... not consistently anyways. But, most bugs actually do more good than you may think (a lot of them you can't even notice easily). I keep predators in my soil, they eat spring-tails that help degrade organic matter and pest insects (releasing plant usable nutrients). They're part of the soil food web, just like molds. Most seem to miss out on the fact that plants grow in nature without human intervention. Whole, lush, green forests with nutrient-hogging trees and plants and yet they all keep growing without our help (until we otherwise decimate them).

I save money by limiting my use of bottled fertilizers (I use some supplements). I use just a few dry amendments and stuff I buy in bulk where possible (fishbone meal, kelp meal, alfalfa meal, limited quantities of guano). I'm trying to get to a point where I can make suitable quantities of earthworm castings from kitchen scraps. Otherwise, I pretty much only use fish fertlizer (Alaskan and General Organics Bio-Marine).


Some organic growers use apple cider vinegar, which is more complex than white vinegar. This is still a temporary solution/something you'd have to keep adding. It might be beneficial say if you're using alkaline tap water. I've never had to use it extensively myself.
i get what your saying with the dry amendments. you make your own "super soil" type of thing, but not subcools recipe. can you amend soil less like you can amend regular soil or is it a waste of time? I've heard that adding benificials is pretty much a waste of time but if a guy could run soil less like it were fox farm it could be really helpful in saving a couple bucks in nutrient cost. also, do you have any cheapo tricks for the thread?
 

whitebb2727

Well-Known Member
I just went to Walmart and bought a stack of 10in pots normally 4 bucks a peice for a dollar each.

They are taking down Christmas stuff down and selling garden supplies pennies on the dollar.
 

Nullis

Moderator
i get what your saying with the dry amendments. you make your own "super soil" type of thing, but not subcools recipe. can you amend soil less like you can amend regular soil or is it a waste of time? I've heard that adding benificials is pretty much a waste of time but if a guy could run soil less like it were fox farm it could be really helpful in saving a couple bucks in nutrient cost. also, do you have any cheapo tricks for the thread?
The thing is that what we mostly refer to as "soil" on here is really potting mix; it's soil-less mix with stuff like compost\humus or earthworm castings added to it to improve the CEC, add nutrients and activate it biologically so it behaves more like real soil. What it is mostly based upon though is stuff like sphagnum peat, coco coir, etc. What you describe is basically what I am doing; amending a soil-less mix to make it behave like soil.

I start with Sunshine Advanced Mix #4, which I like because it is screened so it has a good texture, already has some coco coir in it too (along with sphagnum) and has mycorrhiza already (I add more at transplants). What I do to it is add compost or earthworm castings, more coco coir and sometimes vermiculite (but NO extra perlite). I don't add perlite because the SAM#4 has plenty already, and perlite doesn't provide or hold onto nutrients- it is just there to keep to media aerated, which coir also does and vermiculite does while having CEC (ability to hold nutrients).

Then I add the dolomitic limestone, kelp, alfalfa and more or less fishbone meal depending on growth stage and suspected nutrient requirements. Only other thing I add is Azomite (any granite or rock dust should do). Even if I don't cook/cure the mix, it really works just fine and I can just water it for quite some time granted the container size is appropriate. I might use some blackstrap molasses, and again I foliar when I can either with supplements or an actively aerated compost tea (this is where I'll use small amounts of guano) in veg and early bloom.

Honestly, to me the Subcool super soil is over kill and more complicated to use. Rev's mix is the same deal. If you look at their ingredient lists, they use 2-3+ different amendments for the same purpose. Not to mention, if you're using beneficials especially mycorrhiza they don't like high nutrient levels. Mycorrhizal fungi perform best with lower levels of available phosphate.

One thing that most growers fail to understand is how nutrients/amendments are labeled. NPK is not a good measure of nutrient content for amendments/organic materials. Labeling is also governed by law. The way NPK (in the USA) describes nutrient content is like this:

Nitrogen is often listed as a 'Total' sub-divided either into soluble/insoluble factions. The soluble faction is further described as ammoniacal/nitrate factions. Cannabis prefers nitrates, but various soil microbes are involved in converting ammonia N into Nitrate N (if they are present in the media).

However, the great majority of the time phosphorous and potassium are merely listed as Soluble or Available phosphorous and Soluble/Available Potash. In order to actually be plant 'available' the nutrient must be in soluble form. P & K are also listed as the "oxide equivalents", a chemical form they are not even technically present as. As far as I know, there are also a couple different methods for the determining the soluble/available faction.

Long story short, the great majority of labels don't describe the 'Total' P & K contents. Kelp meal, for example: a typical NPK label is 1-0-2. The '2' represents the percent of potash as if it were in oxide form (which it is not). The 'elemental' measure, still limited to describing the soluble faction, would actually be 1.66%. In other words, that is the amount of elemental K which is theoretically plant available immediately. The 'Total' amount of elemental K could actually be upwards of 7%... this insoluble faction can be potentially made soluble by soil microbes over time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labeling_of_fertilizer
 
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